114 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
You forget that there is lot more to the relationship between Loghain/Maric and Loghain/Cailan than the political views. Maric and Loghain had by virtue of their relationship a communication that would have allowed them a greater chance to reach an understanding. 

Maric had a contentious relationship with Loghain, too, and they hardly saw eye to eye on everything.  In The Calling, we see this plainly as Maric is concealing things from him and defying his counsel.  In the meantime, Loghain saw more of Cailan than he did of his own daughter when both were children, and helped to raise him.  It really is not that different, from what I can see.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
You forget that there is lot more to the relationship between Loghain/Maric and Loghain/Cailan than the political views. Maric and Loghain had by virtue of their relationship a communication that would have allowed them a greater chance to reach an understanding. 

Maric had a contentious relationship with Loghain, too, and they hardly saw eye to eye on everything.  In The Calling, we see this plainly as Maric is concealing things from him and defying his counsel.  In the meantime, Loghain saw more of Cailan than he did of his own daughter when both were children, and helped to raise him.  It really is not that different, from what I can see.

Loghain had an enourmous respect for Maric, even when he didn't agree with him. Loghain had very little respect for Cailan. It's open to argument why this was so, but I think the age difference played a big part in it. Whatever the reason though, that changes the relationship a lot. Loghain would fume over some of Maric's choices, but he didn't loose his respect for him. That alone would make a huge difference.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 avril 2010 - 05:29 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Actually it wasn't so much about age as it was about what Loghain and Maric had gone through together. You must remember that Loghain and Maric fought side by side for well over 5-8 years, leading the rebels with Rowan against Orlais. They were a very close group. especially after so much time saving each other's lives.

[Addai]

Well it is true that I could not see Maric ever saying "...and you will remember who is king." The tragedy of it is that Cailan still trusted Loghain so much. Too much. Loghain should probably have retired and let Cauthrien take over.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 avril 2010 - 06:26 .

[CalJones]

jpdipity wrote...

CalJones wrote...

jpdipity wrote...
Maric told Loghain not to risk everything for one man. However, the battle at Ostagar was not lost or hopeless, Loghain simply left.

We don't actually know this. We can't see the battlefield. All we know is 1) the number of darkspawn had been increasing with each battle, and 2) the beacon was lit late. We don't know how late, but we do know we missed the signal.

Loghain maintains that he made the right choice if you take him back to Ostagar. It's entirely possible that the battle wasn't winnable. It's also possible that Loghain only perceived it as such due to his views on Cailan and the Orlesians.

Exactly my point which perhaps I could have worded differently.  Loghain didn't know if the battle was lost or hopeless - he could not see the battefield.  Loghain simply left without knowing one way or the other; so, he quit the field and left Cailan to likely death regardless of how well or poorly the battle was progressing.   He did not leave because he thought the battle was lost was the point I was trying to make.

*facepalm*
No, you're not reading what I said correctly. What I said was we don't know if the battle was lost or not. We don't see the battle from Loghain's perspective - we are stuck inside a tower with no view of the battlefield.
Whatever Loghain saw was enough for him to make a judgement call. It is entirely possible the battle was lost. It is us, the players, who don't know. Subtle distinction.

Anyway, this is getting away from the topic.

[Costin_Razvan]

The tragedy of it is that Cailan still trusted Loghain so much

Did he? If he trusted Loghain then why didn't he trust his judgement for the battle?  He simply could not dismiss Loghain as Loghain has a great deal of political power.

I would not even compare Maric to Cailan, while it is true both are similar the difference is that Maric always has valued the lives of those under his command, while Cailan simply did not care.

When you meet Cailan he shows no concern over the coming battle, he shows no concern that he has wounded and dead from the last 3 battles while his scouts report an even greater force is amassing.

 Maric would have been concerned, at least for the fact he would lose a lot of men, even more then Loghain ( who also does care for his men but is willing to do whatever needs to be done ). 

I should remind you that at Ostagar you had the Royal Army + The men of Arl Urien + Loghain's Troops + Highever troops. As Loghain puts it: "I knew their names and where they came from, I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things but they were my men."  Stolen Throne shows these words ring true, at least for the troops from his own land.

Loghain should probably have retired and let Cauthrien take over.

Cauthrien is no general, she is a Knight, she would have screwed it up badly. Not that things weren't screwed up so badly by the time the battle started anyway.

Loghain and Maric worked best when together. Maric the idealist and Loghain the pragmatist. With Maric dead Loghain did the best he could, but with limited power ( due to Cailan ) he simply had his hands tied.

Sigh. Ostagar, is just such a moot point to try and argue over, but I will try again anyway. People who accuse Loghain of betraying his king should remember that the darkspawn decimated Cailan's part of the army.

He might have been in command of half of the army, or perhaps a quarter, but the fact is Cailan had the Wardens, Mages, Templars and the Fereldan Royal Guard under his command, along with force factors from the Balistas and Archers mounted on the bridge and fact he was holding ground in a narrow pass.

His force was slaughtered. So let me ask this: How in your minds do you think a force, even if it was 3 times the size of Cailan's force, could have won in a flank attack against the darkspawn, with no Magic, no Grey Wardens, no Templars and no Royal Guard, let alone the support from the balistas and archers stationed on the bridge and structure. Let alone the fact they were fighting on open ground.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 avril 2010 - 07:20 .

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I would not even compare Maric to Cailan, while it is true both are similar the difference is that Maric always has valued the lives of those under his command, while Cailan simply did not care.

There is a huge difference between Maric and Cailan. Maric was born a fugitive. He grows up with loss and tragedy. By comparison Cailan grows up with a golden spoon in his mouth. He haven't had time to understand what loss in Battle means like someone who has seen his closest die before him. In many ways this is why Alistair, at least a hardened Alistair, is so much more like Maric than Cailan is.

[jpdipity]

CalJones wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

CalJones wrote...

jpdipity wrote...
Maric told Loghain not to risk everything for one man. However, the battle at Ostagar was not lost or hopeless, Loghain simply left.

We don't actually know this. We can't see the battlefield. All we know is 1) the number of darkspawn had been increasing with each battle, and 2) the beacon was lit late. We don't know how late, but we do know we missed the signal.

Loghain maintains that he made the right choice if you take him back to Ostagar. It's entirely possible that the battle wasn't winnable. It's also possible that Loghain only perceived it as such due to his views on Cailan and the Orlesians.

Exactly my point which perhaps I could have worded differently.  Loghain didn't know if the battle was lost or hopeless - he could not see the battefield.  Loghain simply left without knowing one way or the other; so, he quit the field and left Cailan to likely death regardless of how well or poorly the battle was progressing.   He did not leave because he thought the battle was lost was the point I was trying to make.

*facepalm*
No, you're not reading what I said correctly. What I said was we don't know if the battle was lost or not. We don't see the battle from Loghain's perspective - we are stuck inside a tower with no view of the battlefield.
Whatever Loghain saw was enough for him to make a judgement call. It is entirely possible the battle was lost. It is us, the players, who don't know. Subtle distinction.

Anyway, this is getting away from the topic.

 - Again, I totally disagree with you about this - Loghain could not see the battlefield (or at least was not supposed to be able to see) - thus the need for a beacon.  Based on previous posts, I doubt anything I say would convince you of otherwise and, you are right, this is getting off topic.

[Costin_Razvan]

jpdipity: A fair enough point. I should say though that a good enough general can deduce a battle is lost before it begins. Loghain most likely knew Ostagar was lost before it began.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I would not even compare Maric to Cailan, while it is true both are similar the difference is that Maric always has valued the lives of those under his command, while Cailan simply did not care.

There is no way you can say this.  The early battles had gone well.  Certainly Cailan showed empathy for the Couslands and the alienage elves when speaking to your PC.

So let me ask this: How in your minds do you think a force, even if it was 3 times the size of Cailan's force, could have won in a flank attack against the darkspawn, with no Magic, no Grey Wardens, no Templars and no Royal Guard, let alone the support from the balistas and archers stationed on the bridge and structure. Let alone the fact they were fighting on open ground.

The battle plan was Loghain's.  Apart from objecting to Cailan being on the front lines and agreeing to Alistair and the PC lighting the beacon, he obviously arranged the troops where he wanted them.  Whether or not he could have saved the army is not something any of us can say.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 avril 2010 - 10:07 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain wanted to retreat. He makes that perfectly clear. When Cailan refused he drew up the best battle plan he could come up with. The other choice was to leave with his troops ( which would be high treason ) or kill Cailan before the battle began ( which again is high treason ).

It is true you can say he killed Cailan, but the fact is there is no real proof against him on that account. ( as Eamon points out ), if he had done any of what I say above the entire landsmeet would be against him.

There is no way you can say this. The early battles had gone well, and certainly Cailan showed empathy for the Couslands and the alienage elves when speaking to your PC.

Just because a battle goes well doesn't mean you don't have dead and wounded. He doesn't care for them, just as he doesn't care for the Alienage until you slam the situation in his face. As for the Couslands he cares not because people died, but because Howe pulled a coup against Teryn Cousland, who was his friend.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 avril 2010 - 10:16 .

[Selej]

The difference is Maric is no fool. He would have not allowed him to be in that situation. He would have retreated as Loghain advised Cailan to do. Loghain even says in rto that if it had been Anora and she dumb enough to be in that situation, he would not have been in any better condition to get to her.

[jpdipity]

Selej wrote...

The difference is Maric is no fool. He would have not allowed him to be in that situation. He would have retreated as Loghain advised Cailan to do. Loghain even says in rto that if it had been Anora and she dumb enough to be in that situation, he would not have been in any better condition to get to her.

When does Loghain suggest retreat from the battle?  Does he mention that when you talk to him at his tent?  He does not state that at the war council.  At the war council, Loghain does not encourage Cailan to retreat - he discourages Cailan from being on the front line.  Then, Loghain disregards Cailan's suggestion to wait for Orlesian troops which may or may not have been some attempt at manipulating Loghain (Cailan's intent is not clear, but I am guessing that there was some form of maniupulation being used by Cailan in mentioning Orlais).  Loghain has a few men in the tower to alert him when to attack because he and the bulk of his troops will be waiting in "cover" to flank and need to be alerted when it is time to charge.  Loghain ultimately states "this plan will suffice." 

Maric rarely retreated from battles in his youth.  Perhaps I am mistaken - it's been awhile, but the only time I remember him retreating was when he was personally overwhelmed with the exception of leaving Loghain's father.  Even then his retreats were urged on by others.  "Glorious" battles and defeating "evil" were hardly the types of things on his mind, but Maric faced a very different enemy than Cailan.

Maric also had the benefit of time on his hands.  A blight requires some urgency and offers less opportunity to pick and choose your battles.  Whereas taking back your country, while best done as quickly as possible since you are fugitive and all, can take lifetimes to achieve. 

At the Landsmeet (and afterwards if you save him), Loghain's excuses run rampant - he says what he must to reconcile with the reality of what he has done.

[Tinnic]

I am not disagreeing that Ostagar is hard to judge. We don't know what Loghain saw but given the man's dislike of Cailan and his paranoid fear of Orlais, one will always wonder IF Loghain could have done something more and would have done more if it had been Maric in place of Cailan.



I mean, yes I understand that The Calling makes it clear that a distance had started to form between Maric and Loghain, in so far that they didn't always agree with each other and Maric often did things behidn Loghain's back to get around Loghain's objections when Maric knew he couldn't convince Loghain to change his mind. I also know that Maric comments "Then you don't know Loghain" when the first enchanter in The Calling suggests that they can use Maric as a bargaining chip with Loghain.



However, even knowing all this, I can't help but think that Loghain would never, ever, EVER leave Maric to die. I mean, the guy can't stop talking about Maric. It's always Maric this, Maric that! Maric, I think, in many ways was his moral compass. Without Maric... well, all you have to do is listen to his words in the redeemer ending and I think it's clear that without Maric, Loghain simply couldn't tell right from wrong in his quest to save Feralden (from Orlais). It was always Orlais with Loghain, never the Blight. I think if you asked Loghain, he would say that he preferred Feralden be destroyed by the Blight then return under the yoke of Orlais.

[Costin_Razvan]

jpdipity: I am just going to politely ask you to use logic a bit in forming your arguments. Does everything need to be bloody mentioned in game, in speech for you to acknowledge it? Then again Loghain haters have even disregarded facts spoken in game and even by devs. So I am simply going to politely ask you to think your arguments through.

As Cailan's honor guard says: The King and Teryn have been having many fights. Loghain telling Cailan to not fight on the front lines wasn't a first, and you can bet he would have suggested retreat first before telling Cailan to not fight, since Loghain DID value the lives of his men, perhaps more then Cailan's life.

As for the time thing. Let me point out this: You cannot end a Blight until the Archdemon is dead and you cannot kill the Archdemon until it shows itself in a battle ( unless you want to go into the deep roads to kill it, good luck with that ).

And even IF you didn't have you do not go into battle like an absolute moron ( like Cailan did ), just because you are pressed on time. It foolish to do so.

As for Maric retreating, yes he didn't retreat, because he didn't have WHERE to retreat. It was either lose his army and save his life. or risk his life to save his army. There was no other choice for him.

However, even knowing all this, I can't help but think that Loghain would never, ever, EVER leave Maric to die. I mean, the guy can't stop talking about Maric

That is just dumb thinking. Maric made him swear an oath never to sacrifice many lives for just one man, and Loghain kept his oaths, especially those to Maric ( he never swore to defend Cailan mind you ). He would have betrayed his oath had he chosen to try and save Cailan ( if indeed he could be saved ).

Do you really think Loghain stood by Maric just for gold, treasure, friendship and other things? He didn't want titles, he didn't want gold, he didn't want to stay ( especially after Rowan rejected him the first time ), and yet he did it. Why? Because he swore oaths, to his father and to Maric.

I think if you asked Loghain, he would say that he preferred Feralden be destroyed by the Blight then return under the yoke of Orlais.

Certain death of all the male population and most of the female population while a few get turned into broodmothers versus decades of living under the yoke of chevaliers who can rape women whenever they want besides doing anything else they please.

Death would have been far preferable to the Fereldan's if such a choice existed, and any Fereldan who lived during the occupation will testify to that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 avril 2010 - 03:35 .

[Sarah1281]

No one knew how broodmothers were created at that point and I'm not sure they fill Loghain in during the game should he survive so for him it would just be 'death by darkspawn or more Orlesians'

[Suron]

Hard call. Would Maric have even let them in the country for this to be an issue?



Loghain changed a lot..so it's hard to say



the man you read about in the books is nothing like the man in the game.

[CalJones]

Well, look at it this way. With the exception of Anora, he has lost everyone he ever loved or cared about. All he has left is Fereldan, and his hatred of the Orlesians. He was always a bit of a cold and remote character but Maric brought out a more human side to him. With Maric (and to a certain extent, Rowan and his wife) gone, it's little wonder that he has turned out the way he has.

[Tinnic]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

However, even knowing all this, I can't help but think that Loghain would never, ever, EVER leave Maric to die. I mean, the guy can't stop talking about Maric

That is just dumb thinking. Maric made him swear an oath never to sacrifice many lives for just one man, and Loghain kept his oaths, especially those to Maric ( he never swore to defend Cailan mind you ). He would have betrayed his oath had he chosen to try and save Cailan ( if indeed he could be saved ).

Do you really think Loghain stood by Maric just for gold, treasure, friendship and other things? He didn't want titles, he didn't want gold, he didn't want to stay ( especially after Rowan rejected him the first time ), and yet he did it. Why? Because he swore oaths, to his father and to Maric.

I disagree. While Loghain did not stay for treasures, titles and other such materialistic things. He did stay for Maric's friendship. He says as much when he explains to Rowen why he's staying on. He's oath to his father was fulfilled when he brought Maric safely to the Rebel Army. He did promise Maric to put Feralden first but we are still talking about Maric here! One of the most important people in Loghain's life. More important then his wife, more important then even Rowen and maybe even more important then Anora! I cannot believe that Loghain would simply let Maric get crushed by a Ogre. Loghain might not have risked everything for Maric, but he would have risked a great deal more then he would ever do for Cailan.

[Ferelden Templar]

Addai67 wrote...

Maximus741000 wrote...

According to Gaider, Eamon's poisoning was just insurance and not designed to actually kill Eamon but make Cailan see sense that his plan on facing the darkspawn with a meager army.

 It doesn't really matter if it was intended to kill him or not.  You don't go around poisoning people to prove a point. 

Loghain had his best friend kill the love of his life. This was just to prove a point about the sacrifices it takes to being a king.

He's not the type who does anything without reason. Character-wise I mean.

[RazorrX]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


That is just dumb thinking. Maric made him swear an oath never to sacrifice many lives for just one man, and Loghain kept his oaths, especially those to Maric ( he never swore to defend Cailan mind you ). He would have betrayed his oath had he chosen to try and save Cailan ( if indeed he could be saved ).

Do you really think Loghain stood by Maric just for gold, treasure, friendship and other things? He didn't want titles, he didn't want gold, he didn't want to stay ( especially after Rowan rejected him the first time ), and yet he did it. Why? Because he swore oaths, to his father and to Maric.

While I can understand that you are a Loghain fan, and there is nothing wrong with that, this is actually just false.  You have asked people if they have paid attention to the game and books, etc. and I wonder if you did.

1.  The plan for the battle of Ostagar was Loghains.  He had the bulk of the army hidden away, out of sight.  That meant that he could NOT see the battle.  That was what the watchtower was for.  When the beacon was lit, he would know the time had come to spring his 'trap'.  When he saw the beacon he ordered the retreat.  That was his plan ALL along.  Ser Cauthrine was even shocked at his actions.  He NEVER intended to fight that battle.

2.  The *only* reason Loghain ever did *anything* was because of his hatred for Orlais.  He fought alongside Maric because of it.  He kept Maric alive because of it.  He hardened Maric by having him kill Katriel because of it, etc.  It was not because of any oaths to anyone, it was because he HATES Orlais.  He hates them so deeply that it clouds his judgement about anything else.  (And this has been agreed upon by David).  

That is not to say that he did not end up Befriending Maric, nor that he ended up loving Rowan, etc.  But the engine behind his decisions was not based on 'loyalty' but on 'hatred'.  Too many make him out to be either a Hero or a Villan, when what he really is is a messed up person (great writing btw).

3.  The whole reason that he abandoned Calain was because to Loghain there can NEVER be a Blight.  Ever.  If there is a blight, then the witch of the wild was correct in her prophecy, and if she was right about that, then she was right about him.   By the end of the game he finally realizes that it is a real Blight, but by that time his fate is sealed, he has to stand fast to his plan, too late to back out now.  He also realizes that the witch was right about him, he had become the betrayer.  IT is this fear that leads him to hate the wardens so much.  They are the ones telling Calain that it IS a blight, and by that they are telling Calain that Loghain IS a traitor.

4.  Everything that Loghain tells you after the Landsmeet is 'coloured' by his ego and perceptions.  Haters take them as all lies, fans take them as absolute truths, I take them as inbetween.

5. By the time of Origins Loghain is consumed by 3 things.  A hatred of Orlais, a deep paranoia that Orlais is trying to invade Ferelden again and a Deep consuming need for the Blight to be false.

Now me, I kill him.  There is no redemption for him in my characters eyes, only death.  IF he were still the hero of the River Dane, he would not have yielded in our combat and died like a man.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

I say he "Might" leave maric there he allied with that snake arl howe and also imprisoned his own daughter to maintain control of the throne. Forced the bannorn to side with him for the good of ferelden let arl howe torture and hold nobles sons and relitives for ransom. Also he left all them soldiers at ostagar to die when he clealy had enough soldiers to flank the darkspawn to whipe them out entirely he had legions of soldiers all them torches in the back round i saw. So yeah i'd say he'd kill maric if he was asking Orlais for help agianst the blight he'd deffiently kill him. But ostagar was also calins fault for not waiting for the Orlesian wardens and Empress Celen soldiers arrive before ingaging the darkspawn.

     Wars always have a cost i would of let the darkspawn advance past ostagar draw them further inland then use Orlais forces and Fereldens to isolate where the archdemon is cut the horde off from all flanks then ingage them in battle. If i was general of ferelden off the bat this senceless slaughter wouldnt of happened. But then agian if i was the game wouldn't take 24+ hours to beat and we woudln't want that .

Modifié par OrlesianWardenCommander, 07 avril 2010 - 02:17 .

[Spawny]

Nope I don't think he would of abandoned Maric, he was very loyal to him. Someone mentioned what Flemeth said to him about betrayal but I do believe that was directed at the bard because Loghain had Maric's best interests even when he disliked the man at the start and did not betray him once in their friendship together. He does seem to have honor given his history with Maric so I do believe that he believes Cailan is a fool and truly believed it was a lost cause at Ostagar. For a man who understood Maric and went with his wishes of Fereldan first it would make no sense to him to have more of the army slaughtered for nothing and also considering the Archdemon had not shown it's self at this stage there was no reason for him or anyone else to believe this was a true blight. Cailan also does not give me any reason to like him with all his blather of glory this and glory that, to me he does seem like Loghain thinks, a little boy trying to play hero. Infact every time I play I wish there was a b*tch slap action for Cailan (and also Alistair when he whines like a child).

Mind you I have not spared Loghain in a play through so far but the book does give you more depth to his character and I dare say I will keep him alive in my future plays. I only got the book yesterday and finished it tonight and I have to say I think Loghain has turned into my favorite character by far after getting his history.

[RazorrX]

HagSpawn wrote...

Nope I don't think he would of abandoned Maric, he was very loyal to him. Someone mentioned what Flemeth said to him about betrayal but I do believe that was directed at the bard because Loghain had Maric's best interests even when he disliked the man at the start and did not betray him once in their friendship together. He does seem to have honor given his history with Maric so I do believe that he believes Cailan is a fool and truly believed it was a lost cause at Ostagar. For a man who understood Maric and went with his wishes of Fereldan first it would make no sense to him to have more of the army slaughtered for nothing and also considering the Archdemon had not shown it's self at this stage there was no reason for him or anyone else to believe this was a true blight. Cailan also does not give me any reason to like him with all his blather of glory this and glory that, to me he does seem like Loghain thinks, a little boy trying to play hero. Infact every time I play I wish there was a b*tch slap action for Cailan (and also Alistair when he whines like a child).
Mind you I have not spared Loghain in a play through so far but the book does give you more depth to his character and I dare say I will keep him alive in my future plays. I only got the book yesterday and finished it tonight and I have to say I think Loghain has turned into my favorite character by far after getting his history.

When the Witch told Maric her prophecies, it was only Maric and Loghain.  She said "he will betray you, each time worse than the last."  Katriel was not there, so it could not have been directed toward her (She was one of them though, just not the only one).

In The Calling you can see it even more.  Loghain even tells Maric that there will NOT be a Blight.

[Spawny]

Yes I've got that book on order so I've not read it yet. It makes sense I'm not getting the whole picture just yet with the stolen throne only. I will enjoy reading what happens next and more now with what you just said.