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[Costin_Razvan]

RazorrX: I would argue over your points, but you are just another biased Loghain hater and I am far beyond the point of arguing with blind stubborn morons.



Since when is this thread about Loghain at the landsmeet, or killing him or whatever he did in the civil war? This thread is about whether Loghain would have abandoned Maric at Ostagar if Maric had been in the same situation as Cailan. That is it.



Why do Loghain haters ALWAYS need to say they kill him, and that there is no redemption and the usual bull****? If you want to believe that fine, but seriously stop with it. If you have a good argument to bring here then do so, if not then GTFO.

[shedevil3001]

i think if maric was to gain the orlesian support then yes loghain would probably abandon him too, i dont say this because i hate loghain, i say it because his hatred for orlais is so beyond reasoning, he cant see past this hatred he has for orlesians and is unable to put his feeling of the past aside, even if it's whats's best for fereldon, which is why he is not the best general at the point of ostagar, he may have been once over, but now he is too bitter about the past, and refuses to look past it to help fereldon, but like i say that is my honest opinion, unfortunatly it's something we may never find out and will just have to assume whatever we feel is right

[RazorrX]

Costin_Razvan wrote...



RazorrX: I would argue over your points, but you are just another biased Loghain hater and I am far beyond the point of arguing with blind stubborn morons.

Pot, meet kettle. You are a biased and closed minded Loghain lover.

Since when is this thread about Loghain at the landsmeet, or killing him or whatever he did in the civil war? This thread is about whether Loghain would have abandoned Maric at Ostagar if Maric had been in the same situation as Cailan. That is it.

It was brought up as to question WHY he left the field and left him to die. I pointed out that it was always his intention to leave Calain to die, and pointed out the reasons for it. Do note that at no time did I say he was a horrible bad man, etc. I simply gave the reasons for WHY he left Calain to die and stated that IF Maric had done the same thing he would have left him to die as well. The big difference being that Maric would not have fallen for his 'plan'.

Why do Loghain haters ALWAYS need to say they kill him, and that there is no redemption and the usual bull****? If you want to believe that fine, but seriously stop with it. If you have a good argument to bring here then do so, if not then GTFO.

Rudeness is a sign of a small mind.



Actually, I thought i was rather clear. I am not a hater (I do kill him but because of what he has done to MY character and My friends, etc. I also always kill Zevran because he tries to kill me first time I meet him.).

Pretty much anyone who has betayed me, framed me for treason, killed my friends, hounded me across the land, etc. is going to die when I get my hands on them. Period. No redemption, no second chance, no but I was a great guy once, etc.





Lets see...



Loghains men in Lothering - Dead, every time.

Zevran - dead except the one time just to unlock assassain.

Antivan Assassain who is sent to kill Leliana - dead, every time.

Marjolene - dead, every time.

Howe - dead, every time

Ser Cautherine - dead, every time.

Loghain - dead, every time. And of all the deaths his is the MOST disappointing, because he choses not to die in battle like a man but yields.



You hate anyone who dislikes your hero (as evidenced by your rude remarks and Hater branding). That is sad for you as the community is split on the character (again a very good sign of the quality of the game/books). Just as all the Haters (of which I am not really a part of anymore, I can see the big picture behind his actions) try to find ways to demonize him, YOU are a Lover and they try to find ways to make him the paragon of virtue. He is neither.



YOU are a lover though, and are beyond any form of rational discussion regarding him.

[Costin_Razvan]

You don't get it now do you? I don't have an issue with the people who kill Loghain, it is their game, their playthrough and they have their free will to do so.



I do have an issue with people who bring the fact they did kill him in every single bloody argument. and that many people ( perhaps not you ) that think that you shouldn't spare him no matter what the reason, cause his crimes are great, cause Alistair wants it to etc.



If you want to kill him, be my guest, I don't give a damn about that, but stop trying to enforce your opinion on others that they should also kill him. I have defended Loghain but I have never said you don't have a reason to kill him.

[roundcrow]

I pointed out that it was always his intention to leave Calain to die,

FWIW, and I'm not going to go dredging through all of the Loghain threads for this, David Gaider said that Loghain wasn't sure what he was going to do until the beacon was actually lit. He (Loghain) was trying to manipulate Cailan away from Orlais (e.g. cutting off his support by poisoning Eamon, etc), but he did not take the field at Ostagar with the intention to leave Cailan to die.

[jpdipity]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

jpdipity: I am just going to politely ask you to use logic a bit in forming your arguments. Does everything need to be bloody mentioned in game, in speech for you to acknowledge it? Then again Loghain haters have even disregarded facts spoken in game and even by devs. So I am simply going to politely ask you to think your arguments through.

Well, yes, it does.  I don't make up things to fit my perception of a situation.  I don't disregard facts in the game, the book or by devs - that is why I asked to be pointed to where Loghain asked for retreat.  I'll gladly rethink my position with additional facts that I missed if there are any.

Simply classifying anyone who disagrees with you as "Loghain hater" is not a strong argument.  I am not a Loghain hater.  In my opinion, his paranoia shadows his perception which makes him dangerous and no longer able to fulfill the duties of his position.  I think Loghain has good intentions, but is very set in his ways and incapable of changing.  I do not believe redemption is possible for a person who is unwilling to take ownership of his faults by using excuses to place the blame elsewhere.

My apologies for taking us off topic once again.

[RazorrX]

roundcrow wrote...

I pointed out that it was always his intention to leave Calain to die,

FWIW, and I'm not going to go dredging through all of the Loghain threads for this, David Gaider said that Loghain wasn't sure what he was going to do until the beacon was actually lit. He (Loghain) was trying to manipulate Cailan away from Orlais (e.g. cutting off his support by poisoning Eamon, etc), but he did not take the field at Ostagar with the intention to leave Cailan to die.

I will have to search for that post then.  From everything I have read and seen in the game it seems to point to the fact that he tried to get Cailan to not be in the front, as his plan was to sacrifice the grey wardens.  The grey wardens were Orlesian spys in his mind, who were manipulating Cailan.  

The battle plan had built in the option to leave with the bulk of the forces while the front line (IE grey wardens) would be at the front and be killed off.  That decision was made at the war meeting.  I would not doubt but that the signal fire was not really supposed to have been lit, that he could tell Cailan (assuming plan went the way he originally wanted) "Well something happened, and we did not get the signal, we should withdraw our troops and reassess the situation."

BUT then Cailan refused to be anywhere BUT with the wardens in the war meeting and thus sealed his fate.

*goes off to search for all of davids posts*

[Addai]

roundcrow wrote...

I pointed out that it was always his intention to leave Calain to die,

FWIW, and I'm not going to go dredging through all of the Loghain threads for this, David Gaider said that Loghain wasn't sure what he was going to do until the beacon was actually lit. He (Loghain) was trying to manipulate Cailan away from Orlais (e.g. cutting off his support by poisoning Eamon, etc), but he did not take the field at Ostagar with the intention to leave Cailan to die.

That's true, I read that as well.  He said he didn't make a final decision until he saw the beacon, though that doesn't mean it hadn't crossed his mind.

[Xandurpein]

Word of David Gaider is that Loghain did intend to 'deal' with Cailan. He was making plans to get rid of him. It's pretty clear Lghain thought Cailan was dangerously reckless and naive in his dealings with Orlais. We know Loghain was rabid about Orlais, but we really have no firm proof if Orlais was dealing with Cailan in good faith or were indeed playing Cailan as Loghain suspected.



Personally I don't think Loghain would flinch at having Cailan killed if he thought it would help Fereldan, but I doubt Loghain was comfortable sacrificing half the army with him. He would have preferred a cleaner way to remove Cailan. Exactly what Loghain planned and what he thought when he decided to retreat we may simply never know.



Whether we think Loghain is a hero or the foulest villian ever it's not really helpful to a healthy debate if we argue as if our interpretation is the only valid one. Even if we agree on Loghain being a villian still doesn't mean people can make rational arguments for both killing Loghain or pardoning him, even without metagaming knowledge about the role of Grey Wardens in killing the Archdemon.

[CalJones]

Here you go: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250

Bottom of DG's second post.



As for yielding at the Landsmeet - those were the rules of the duel. It wasn't a duel to the death.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Loghains blind hate for Orlais deffiently blinds him to the big picture of the blight but i do think his entire intention was to remove calin from the throne deeming him unfit to rule ferelden because of him siding with Orlais. Calin from a tatical stand point was asking for this to go wrong he was to willing to throw himself at hordes of darkspawn with a handful of wardens and maybe 1000 men. Depending entirely on loghains flanking move. I do think Loghain was right to pull his men out, soldiers are not somthing you throw in the trash for a pampered king that does not have any experence in the feild and does not wait for reinforcements from empress celens soldiers or wardens from Orlais.



But Loghain was wrong to outlaw the wardens if this was the hero of riverdain he would of choose to ally with Orlais to protect his home land. But agian his blind hate or fear of Orlais drove him to ruins. But as a general i respect the man just not his desisions after the fact.

I always kill him but i respect him for taking it like a man.

[RazorrX]

CalJones wrote...

Here you go: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250
Bottom of DG's second post.

As for yielding at the Landsmeet - those were the rules of the duel. It wasn't a duel to the death.

Ah, thank you.  I was looking for it but had not found it yet.

I know the rules were to stop at yeild, but that did not mean you HAD to yield.  I certainly was not going to.

[Tinnic]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I do have an issue with people who bring the fact they did kill him in every single bloody argument. and that many people ( perhaps not you ) that think that you shouldn't spare him no matter what the reason, cause his crimes are great, cause Alistair wants it to etc.

Well  I can honestly say that Loghain will never live in one of my games. Nothing to do with how I personally feel about Loghain but because Alistair wants him dead. Simply put, I don't play evil characters or even remotely selfish characters. Certainly unless I decide to play an origin that cries out for it, I will never duel Loghain again. If I am not dueling Loghain personally then Alistair will duel Loghain each and every time and so he will die. I think that letting Alistair duel Loghain would be the logical course of action for my PCs unless I am meta-gaming. Especially when my PCs care about Alistair, even if just as a friend. Because I think Alistair needs to do the dueling, if only for himself.

Given that I now have read the books and have a lot of "meta-game" knowledge. It is hard for me to... properly judge the in-game Loghain. But I can honestly say that sparing him never crossed my mind when I played Dragon Age shortly after its release and had zero meta-game knowledge. Only reason I found out he could be spared was because in my first game, Alistair wasn't at a level where he could win against Loghain and it was just much easier to defeat him on my mage PC. 

[Sarah1281]

I think that letting Alistair duel Loghain would be the logical course of action for my PCs unless I am meta-gaming.

Or unless you plan to marry Alistair to Anora, realize that Alistair will kill Loghain given half the chance (he's not exactly subtle about it on the few occasions the subject coms up), and Anora could very well take issue with marrying her father's killer.

[Bann Duncan]

Tinnic wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I do have an issue with people who bring the fact they did kill him in every single bloody argument. and that many people ( perhaps not you ) that think that you shouldn't spare him no matter what the reason, cause his crimes are great, cause Alistair wants it to etc.

Well  I can honestly say that Loghain will never live in one of my games. Nothing to do with how I personally feel about Loghain but because Alistair wants him dead. Simply put, I don't play evil characters or even remotely selfish characters. Certainly unless I decide to play an origin that cries out for it, I will never duel Loghain again. If I am not dueling Loghain personally then Alistair will duel Loghain each and every time and so he will die. I think that letting Alistair duel Loghain would be the logical course of action for my PCs unless I am meta-gaming. Especially when my PCs care about Alistair, even if just as a friend. Because I think Alistair needs to do the dueling, if only for himself.

Given that I now have read the books and have a lot of "meta-game" knowledge. It is hard for me to... properly judge the in-game Loghain. But I can honestly say that sparing him never crossed my mind when I played Dragon Age shortly after its release and had zero meta-game knowledge. Only reason I found out he could be spared was because in my first game, Alistair wasn't at a level where he could win against Loghain and it was just much easier to defeat him on my mage PC. 

The least 'selfish' ending is to have Alistair marry Anora and to have Loghain stay on as Warden recruiter for Fereldan. Best for all parties involved.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
As for yielding at the Landsmeet - those were the rules of the duel. It wasn't a duel to the death.

The duel settles who wins the Landsmeet, and what comes after falls under the king's justice.

If the Warden loses the Landsmeet, Loghain certainly exercises his authority over your fate.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 avril 2010 - 11:09 .

[jpdipity]

Bann Duncan wrote...

The least 'selfish' ending is to have Alistair marry Anora and to have Loghain stay on as Warden recruiter for Fereldan. Best for all parties involved.

Not really - that is the worst possible scenario for Alistair.  Alistair does not want to marry Anora, does not want to be King and wants Loghain dead; so, he loses on all fronts in this scenario on top of feeling as if he was betrayed by a friend.

[Addai]

Bann Duncan wrote...
The least 'selfish' ending is to have Alistair marry Anora and to have Loghain stay on as Warden recruiter for Fereldan. Best for all parties involved.

This is only "unselfish" if you agree that a) Loghain doesn't deserve to die for his crimes, Anora deserves to hold her throne, and c) that it's "best" for two people who loathe each other to marry when so much will ride on their ability to rule together.

[LadyDamodred]

Bann Duncan wrote...

The least 'selfish' ending is to have Alistair marry Anora and to have Loghain stay on as Warden recruiter for Fereldan. Best for all parties involved.

I must agree with the others who have also said no.  Besides, my character is selfish with what counts to her.  Hence her agreeing to the DR.  That is done for purely selfish reasons.

Back to the original topic, given what I know from the game and books, yes, Loghain would have left Maric.  I also happen to think if Maric were being that stupid, Loghain would have cold-clocked him one and bodily removed him and the army from Ostagar.  But that was the type of relationship they had.  Loghain didn't have that with Cailan.

[CalJones]

I wouldn't say Anora and Alistair loathe each other - if you talk to her in Eamon's place she says she's spoken to Alistair and maybe the marriage isn't such a bad idea. Epilogue also indictates that it works out pretty well.

Of course, if you are playing a female Cousland and want Alistair for yourself, then I can see why you wouldn't like this scenario. I've always played male Couslands, though.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I wouldn't say Anora and Alistair loathe each other - if you talk to her in Eamon's place she says she's spoken to Alistair and maybe the marriage isn't such a bad idea. Epilogue also indictates that it works out pretty well.

VO directions in the toolset, I understand, say that Alistair doesn't like her (I would think that would be obvious by what he says about her!) and that he is unhappy about a political marriage even with the Warden.  You can see what Anora thinks about it by the way she slaps his hand away in the coronation scene.

[Xandurpein]

Whatever issues Alistair and Anora may have with each other privatly, and I do agree that they probably will not be able to give what the other one needs emotionally, they obviously manage to arrange for a working partnership as King and Queen. The end panel when Alistair marries Anora all indicates a golden future for Fereldan. I would argue that the mere fact that the King and Queen are head over heels in love with each other does in itself not in any way improve the chance that they will prove successful as rulers. That is the stuff of fairy tales, not history books.

It seems almost impossible to discuss Loghain without discussing Alistair one way or the other. Some people will never pardon Loghain simply because they can't stand to say no to Alistair. I can respect that decision, I've done so myself with one character. I do think however that the fact that pardoning Loghain will result in the player becoming estranged from Alistair has made the already thorny issue of the possibility of redemption for Loghain ten times more inflamed than it might else need be.

There are so many issues all intertwined and in our minds affecting each other.
- Doesn't Alistair deserve to be happy? (What would really make him happy?)
- Does Loghain deserve redemption? (Are there more important issues than whether he deserve it or not?)
- Who makes the best ruler? (Will a ruler who is unhappy about his job be a good ruler?)
- Is Alistair justified for his tantrum? (Will the PC support him even if he isn't justified?)

You can rack up more questions. Often when I try to discover answers for a character I come up with answers to each question that clashes, because the situation forces me to make a choice that afffects all these questions with one decision.

It's not an easy problem to handle in your mind even if you think you are convinced that only one outcome is the correct one. It's easy to get lost and debate different issues simultaneously and treat them as the same question. The question of whether Alistair would make a good King or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether a PC can be justified in pardoning Loghain. We are merely forced to make a choice that affects two different issues with one decision.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 06:37 .

[Tinnic]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think that letting Alistair duel Loghain would be the logical course of action for my PCs unless I am meta-gaming.

Or unless you plan to marry Alistair to Anora, realize that Alistair will kill Loghain given half the chance (he's not exactly subtle about it on the few occasions the subject coms up), and Anora could very well take issue with marrying her father's killer.

I have no intention of ruining Alistair's life by marrying him to Anora. If I believed that she could ever grow to love him or even have affection for him, maybe. But I do not.

[Lara Denton]

Maric would have trusted Duncan and if Duncan's advice would have been to call the GW of Orlais for help, Maric would have done it. He also knew that he had to watch out for Loghain's betrayal, meaning that he would have tried to keep some things hidden from him. Pretty much what happened with Cailan, but with some different reasons.

Giving all that, I thing Loghain would leave Maric to die if not actually feel compelled to maybe kill Maric himself.

P.S. Maric trusting Duncan and knowing about betrayal come from the Calling.

[Xandurpein]

Tinnic wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think that letting Alistair duel Loghain would be the logical course of action for my PCs unless I am meta-gaming.

Or unless you plan to marry Alistair to Anora, realize that Alistair will kill Loghain given half the chance (he's not exactly subtle about it on the few occasions the subject coms up), and Anora could very well take issue with marrying her father's killer.

I have no intention of ruining Alistair's life by marrying him to Anora. If I believed that she could ever grow to love him or even have affection for him, maybe. But I do not.

Personally I have no problem imagining Anora grow to have affection for Alistair. I think that the biggest problem would be that Alistair would never truly like Anora. My personal take on it is that Anora is cool logical person, but she can also act. Her relationship with Cailan worked well because Cailan probably only needed that she played along in his little charades to be happy (Anora mentions that Cailan would make an excellent dashing rogue if he wasn't King). Alistair needs a much deeper show of affection than Anora probably would ever show him. If their relationship fails it's because Anora can't give what Alistair needs, not the other way around really.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 11:47 .