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[Xandurpein]

laradenton wrote...

Maric would have trusted Duncan and if Duncan's advice would have been to call the GW of Orlais for help, Maric would have done it. He also knew that he had to watch out for Loghain's betrayal, meaning that he would have tried to keep some things hidden from him. Pretty much what happened with Cailan, but with some different reasons.

Giving all that, I thing Loghain would leave Maric to die if not actually feel compelled to maybe kill Maric himself.

P.S. Maric trusting Duncan and knowing about betrayal come from the Calling.

There is really nothing in the book that made me think that Maric seriously reconsidered his relationship with Loghain because of the prohpecy. They were still bonded by all the fighting they had together.I have a hard time seeing that the kind of bond that must have grown between Maric and Loghain through the entire war with Orlais would not have had a huge impact on the outcome if it had been Maric instread of Loghain at Ostagar. Maybe this is just a male thing but to put it in vernacular: Maric and Loghain were bros, Cailan and Loghain weren't and that makes an enormous difference.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 12:22 .

[Tinnic]

laradenton wrote...

Maric would have trusted Duncan and if Duncan's advice would have been to call the GW of Orlais for help, Maric would have done it. He also knew that he had to watch out for Loghain's betrayal, meaning that he would have tried to keep some things hidden from him. Pretty much what happened with Cailan, but with some different reasons.

Giving all that, I thing Loghain would leave Maric to die if not actually feel compelled to maybe kill Maric himself.

P.S. Maric trusting Duncan and knowing about betrayal come from the Calling.

This reminds me of the part from The Calling where Katriel referred to Duncan as the "new Loghain". But the long and short of it is that Maric and Duncan were friends. It was a different kind of friendship as Duncan was much younger then Maric, while Maric and Loghain were the same age, but they were friends and so Maric probably would pay as much attention to Duncan as Cailan did.

Now here is another twist to this discussion. Suppose for a moment that there is a tear in the fade veil and Maric's soul returns from the dead and takes possession of a body much like Justice did with Kristoff shortly after Ostagar. Assume also that he joins the Warden in their quest to save Feralden. What would Maric do in the Landsmeet? Would he, spare Loghain entirely? Would he agree to let Loghain go through the joining? Or would he have Loghain executed/kill Loghain himself in the duel? 

[Xandurpein]

Tinnic wrote...

laradenton wrote...

Maric would have trusted Duncan and if Duncan's advice would have been to call the GW of Orlais for help, Maric would have done it. He also knew that he had to watch out for Loghain's betrayal, meaning that he would have tried to keep some things hidden from him. Pretty much what happened with Cailan, but with some different reasons.

Giving all that, I thing Loghain would leave Maric to die if not actually feel compelled to maybe kill Maric himself.

P.S. Maric trusting Duncan and knowing about betrayal come from the Calling.

This reminds me of the part from The Calling where Katriel referred to Duncan as the "new Loghain". But the long and short of it is that Maric and Duncan were friends. It was a different kind of friendship as Duncan was much younger then Maric, while Maric and Loghain were the same age, but they were friends and so Maric probably would pay as much attention to Duncan as Cailan did.

Now here is another twist to this discussion. Suppose for a moment that there is a tear in the fade veil and Maric's soul returns from the dead and takes possession of a body much like Justice did with Kristoff shortly after Ostagar. Assume also that he joins the Warden in their quest to save Feralden. What would Maric do in the Landsmeet? Would he, spare Loghain entirely? Would he agree to let Loghain go through the joining? Or would he have Loghain executed/kill Loghain himself in the duel?

As interesting as that notion would be, it is not even theoretically possible. Dead souls do not dwell in the Fade with fade spirits. Even Justice says as much I believe. Do not let that spoil the fun of thinking of what would happen IF though...

[SurelyForth]

Tinnic wrote...

Now here is another twist to this discussion. Suppose for a moment that there is a tear in the fade veil and Maric's soul returns from the dead and takes possession of a body much like Justice did with Kristoff shortly after Ostagar. Assume also that he joins the Warden in their quest to save Feralden. What would Maric do in the Landsmeet? Would he, spare Loghain entirely? Would he agree to let Loghain go through the joining? Or would he have Loghain executed/kill Loghain himself in the duel? 

This is an effed up scenario and I love it.

Can we add another layer, and say that Maric takes over Alistair's body (that's another thread entirely: "If Maric Justice'd Alistair's corpse...how long would it take before anyone could tell the difference?").
 
To answer to your actual question? I think Maric would execute Loghain on the spot. At that point, if he knew about Ostagar, the civil war, what Howe did to the Couslands and what they were doing in the Alienage, he would realize that Loghain was too consumed by paranoia to be trusted. He might even see it as the merciful thing to do- to let him go out with a modicum of grace.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 08 avril 2010 - 01:16 .

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Now here is another twist to this discussion. Suppose for a moment that there is a tear in the fade veil and Maric's soul returns from the dead and takes possession of a body much like Justice did with Kristoff shortly after Ostagar. Assume also that he joins the Warden in their quest to save Feralden. What would Maric do in the Landsmeet? Would he, spare Loghain entirely? Would he agree to let Loghain go through the joining? Or would he have Loghain executed/kill Loghain himself in the duel? 

This is an effed up scenario and I love it.

Can we add another layer, and say that Maric takes over Alistair's body (that's another thread entirely: "If Maric Justice'd Alistair's corpse...how long would it take before anyone could tell the difference?").
 
To answer to your actual question? I think Maric would execute Loghain on the spot. At that point, if he knew about Ostagar, the civil war, what Howe did to the Couslands and what they were doing in the Alienage, he would realize that Loghain was too consumed by paranoia to be trusted. He might even see it as the merciful thing to do- to let him go out with a modicum of grace.

I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

[Lara Denton]

SurelyForth wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Now here is another twist to this discussion. Suppose for a moment that there is a tear in the fade veil and Maric's soul returns from the dead and takes possession of a body much like Justice did with Kristoff shortly after Ostagar. Assume also that he joins the Warden in their quest to save Feralden. What would Maric do in the Landsmeet? Would he, spare Loghain entirely? Would he agree to let Loghain go through the joining? Or would he have Loghain executed/kill Loghain himself in the duel? 

This is an effed up scenario and I love it.

Can we add another layer, and say that Maric takes over Alistair's body (that's another thread entirely: "If Maric Justice'd Alistair's corpse...how long would it take before anyone could tell the difference?").
 
To answer to your actual question? I think Maric would execute Loghain on the spot. At that point, if he knew about Ostagar, the civil war, what Howe did to the Couslands and what they were doing in the Alienage, he would realize that Loghain was too consumed by paranoia to be trusted. He might even see it as the merciful thing to do- to let him go out with a modicum of grace.

I agree. If it was up to Loghain, both of his sons would have ended up dead, so I don't see how Maric would forgive that.

[Tinnic]

Xandurpein wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

This reminds me of the part from The Calling where Katriel referred to Duncan as the "new Loghain". But the long and short of it is that Maric and Duncan were friends. It was a different kind of friendship as Duncan was much younger then Maric, while Maric and Loghain were the same age, but they were friends and so Maric probably would pay as much attention to Duncan as Cailan did.

Now here is another twist to this discussion. Suppose for a moment that there is a tear in the fade veil and Maric's soul returns from the dead and takes possession of a body much like Justice did with Kristoff shortly after Ostagar. Assume also that he joins the Warden in their quest to save Feralden. What would Maric do in the Landsmeet? Would he, spare Loghain entirely? Would he agree to let Loghain go through the joining? Or would he have Loghain executed/kill Loghain himself in the duel?

As interesting as that notion would be, it is not even theoretically possible. Dead souls do not dwell in the Fade with fade spirits. Even Justice says as much I believe. Do not let that spoil the fun of thinking of what would happen IF though...

Well, I think it was mentioned in The Calling that the Chantry says that the spirit of the dead have to cross the Fade or something like that. Leading to Commander Genevieve saying that it was possible that the soul of the recently dead Julien had found Nicolas and so opted to remain with Nicolas instead of crossing the fade and going to... wherever dead souls go. It was also never made clear whether the Katriel Maric encountered in the fade was a demon, spirit or the soul of the real Katriel trapped in the fade. Not to mention that the Baroness did have the souls of the Blackmarsh residents trapped in the fade.

Whichever way, for our little discussion, let's just assume that Maric's soul got lost in the Fade while trying to cross it and so could be pulled from it and stuffed into a body. 

Xandurpein wrote...

I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Well I do agree with your comment that Loghain and Maric were bros. This would need to be taken into account when discussing what Loghain and Maric would or would not do to each other. On the other hand, Maric did kill the love of his life when he lost himself in a moment of anger. Now I am familiar with the principle of "bros before hoes" (I hope I spelt that right) but still!

Modifié par Tinnic, 08 avril 2010 - 01:34 .

[Lara Denton]

Xandurpein wrote...
I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Maric hides his child with Fiona from Loghain and I think part of the reason he does this is because of the betrayal warning. We don't know if this child is Alistair or not, but he wants to protect him. And I don't think he would see Cailan's death as a result of a bad decision in the battle. He would want his son's life saved.

[Sarah1281]

Suppose for a moment that there is a tear in the fade veil and Maric's soul returns from the dead and takes possession of a body much like Justice did with Kristoff shortly after Ostagar.

Since he was lost at sea, wouldn't it just be easier to assume that he simply didn't die and - for whatever reason - he hadn't been able to return to Ferelden before then? Actually looking like himself would definitely give him more power over what's happening, especially at the Landsmeet where the only other options is the bastard GW or the commoner princess-consort.

[Xandurpein]

laradenton wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Maric hides his child with Fiona from Loghain and I think part of the reason he does this is because of the betrayal warning. We don't know if this child is Alistair or not, but he wants to protect him. And I don't think he would see Cailan's death as a result of a bad decision in the battle. He would want his son's life saved.

I still think that Maric would own up to the fact that he made Loghain swear to never put any man above Fereldan as a direct reason for what happened, even if Maric didn't intend it to lead to such consequences. Maric knew Loghain and how single minded he was. There is no way Maric didn't realize that he made Loghain swear to depose the next King if he thought he was unfit to rule when Loghain took that oath. Nor that said next King likely would be Maric's son. He could just as easily had made Loghain swear to protect his children at all cost, but he didn't. Loghain would not have broken such an oath. In my opinion Maric might well blame himself as much as Loghain. (I'm not saying he should do that, just that I believe he would).

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 01:45 .

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...
I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Heh, that's not my reasoning at all, actually. My reasoning is purely based on what the PC presents at the Landsmeet and the fact that all these wrongdoings would be, in many ways, more personal for Maric. It's his son who died when Loghain retreated (and was defamed in the aftermath), it's his other son who was outlawed, hunted and imprisoned, it was his brother-in-law/good friend that was poisoned, it's his country that is being destroyed by a civil war and an unchecked Blight because Loghain is too stubborn/delusional to see what the real enemy is. I think it would break his heart to see how far his friend has fallen and, yeah, he might feel guilty but I don't think it would allow him to hand-wave the things that Loghain has done and the potential for treachery he might still possess.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 08 avril 2010 - 01:51 .

[Sarah1281]

Yes, he might forgive him for Ostagar and Cailan because of that but the rest of it? Ignoring the Blight, poisoning Eamon, selling citizens allowing Howe to kidnap and torture whoever he wanted to? That's rather harder to justify.

[Lara Denton]

Xandurpein wrote...

laradenton wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Maric hides his child with Fiona from Loghain and I think part of the reason he does this is because of the betrayal warning. We don't know if this child is Alistair or not, but he wants to protect him. And I don't think he would see Cailan's death as a result of a bad decision in the battle. He would want his son's life saved.

I still think that Maric would own up to the fact that he made Loghain swear to never put any man above Fereldan as a direct reason for what happened, even if Maric didn't intend it to lead to such consequences. Maric knew Loghain and how single minded he was. There is no way Maric didn't realize that he made Loghain swear to depose the next King if he thought he was unfit to rule when Loghain took that oath. Nor that said next King likely would be Maric's son. He could just as easily had made Loghain swear to protect his children at all cost, but he didn't. Loghain would not have broken such an oath. In my opinion Maric might well blame himself as much as Loghain. (I'm not saying he should do that, just that I believe he would).

I understand what you're saying, but is this a strong enough reason for Maric to forgim him? Because my understanding from the Calling was that the strong bond that existed between Maric and Logahin was broken.

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Heh, that's not my reasoning at all, actually. My reasoning is purely based on what the PC presents at the Landsmeet and the fact that all these wrongdoings would be, in many ways, more personal for Maric. It's his son who died when Loghain retreated (and was defamed in the aftermath), it's his other son who was outlawed, hunted and imprisoned, it was his brother-in-law/good friend that was poisoned, it's his country that is being destroyed by a civil war and an unchecked Blight because Loghain is too stubborn/delusional to see what the real enemy is. I think it would break his heart to see how far his friend has fallen and, yeah, he might feel guilty but I don't think it would allow him to hand-wave the things that Loghain has done and the potential for treachery he might still possess.

A player character is cetainly excused for doubting Loghain when he yields at the Landsmeet and promises to follow the player. Maric knows Loghain and would not doubt that Loghain would not betray an oath to step down peacefully.

[Xandurpein]

laradenton wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

laradenton wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Maric hides his child with Fiona from Loghain and I think part of the reason he does this is because of the betrayal warning. We don't know if this child is Alistair or not, but he wants to protect him. And I don't think he would see Cailan's death as a result of a bad decision in the battle. He would want his son's life saved.

I still think that Maric would own up to the fact that he made Loghain swear to never put any man above Fereldan as a direct reason for what happened, even if Maric didn't intend it to lead to such consequences. Maric knew Loghain and how single minded he was. There is no way Maric didn't realize that he made Loghain swear to depose the next King if he thought he was unfit to rule when Loghain took that oath. Nor that said next King likely would be Maric's son. He could just as easily had made Loghain swear to protect his children at all cost, but he didn't. Loghain would not have broken such an oath. In my opinion Maric might well blame himself as much as Loghain. (I'm not saying he should do that, just that I believe he would).

I understand what you're saying, but is this a strong enough reason for Maric to forgim him? Because my understanding from the Calling was that the strong bond that existed between Maric and Logahin was broken.

To be honest. I'm not sure Maric would ever forgive himself. What punishment would he impose on Loghain that he wouldn't impose on himself? Maybe he would think it fitting that he and Loghain would go alone against the Archdemon and together try and atone for the whole mess.

/Edit. Loghain makes it perfectly plain that he still revere Maric in the game. Maybe the bond of friendship took a beating, but not the respect.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 02:04 .

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...

A player character is cetainly excused for doubting Loghain when he yields at the Landsmeet and promises to follow the player. Maric knows Loghain and would not doubt that Loghain would not betray an oath to step down peacefully.

Really? If I were Maric I wouldn't even pretend to know what Loghain would and would not do at that point.

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

A player character is cetainly excused for doubting Loghain when he yields at the Landsmeet and promises to follow the player. Maric knows Loghain and would not doubt that Loghain would not betray an oath to step down peacefully.

Really? If I were Maric I wouldn't even pretend to know what Loghain would and would not do at that point.

Loghain is capable of many crimes, but he does not ever betray his word, at least not to Maric. I believe that to be as much a part of his obsessive nature as hating Orlais. Maric would know that.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 02:09 .

[Tinnic]

laradenton wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
I really wouldn't be to sure about that. I wouldn't presume to know really. It's easy to get stuck in the trap "I hate Loghain's guts and I would kill him on the spot and I think Maric is a nice guy, therefore Maric would by definition kill him on the spot. For all we know Maric may even feel guilty and believe he is in part responsible for the mess himself.

Maric hides his child with Fiona from Loghain and I think part of the reason he does this is because of the betrayal warning. We don't know if this child is Alistair or not, but he wants to protect him. And I don't think he would see Cailan's death as a result of a bad decision in the battle. He would want his son's life saved.

Fiona was Orlesian. That alone is probably a good reason for Maric to keep her baby hidden from Loghain. I didn't think Loghain was particularly racist towards Elves nor was he anti-magic. I mean, he did sell elves to slavers but I don't think that was born of his hate of elves or anything like that. Then again, it's one thing to not mind elves, another completely to have one give birth to the son of his friend, the king.

[Xandurpein]

Maric really have all the pieces of the puzzle. He knows just how ruthless Loghain can be in achieving his goals. He knows how passionately Loghain feels about Orlais. He knows about the oath he made Loghain take. If anyone could understand how Loghain ended up in the horrible mess he did, it's Maric.

[Lara Denton]

Xandurpein wrote...

Maric really have all the pieces of the puzzle. He knows just how ruthless Loghain can be in achieving his goals. He knows how passionately Loghain feels about Orlais. He knows about the oath he made Loghain take. If anyone could understand how Loghain ended up in the horrible mess he did, it's Maric.

To understand is one thing, but forgiveness is another kind of beast. I don't see Maric giving a chance to Loghain, feeling guilty or not.

[Xandurpein]

laradenton wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Maric really have all the pieces of the puzzle. He knows just how ruthless Loghain can be in achieving his goals. He knows how passionately Loghain feels about Orlais. He knows about the oath he made Loghain take. If anyone could understand how Loghain ended up in the horrible mess he did, it's Maric.

To understand is one thing, but forgiveness is another kind of beast. I don't see Maric giving a chance to Loghain, feeling guilty or not.

And I still think Maric would hold himself just as guilty as Loghain for setting the whole thing in motion. Maric set Loghain in the direction that led to Ostagar and beyond. Whatever punishment he would demand of Loghain he would accept for himself. I really believe that Maric, whatever faults he had, is the kind of person who would see things that way and accept the consequences.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 02:28 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You know, you people can speculate if Maric would kill Loghain or not all you want. It is just that speculation.



Try asking DG for an answer, he might just give you one.

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You know, you people can speculate if Maric would kill Loghain or not all you want. It is just that speculation.

Try asking DG for an answer, he might just give you one.

And ruin a perfectly good argument by finding out the truth. How utterly boorish to suggest!

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
 Maric set Loghain in the direction that led to Ostagar and beyond.

Eh?  How do you figure that???

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

I still think that Maric would own up to the fact that he made Loghain swear to never put any man above Fereldan as a direct reason for what happened, even if Maric didn't intend it to lead to such consequences.

Loghain didn't abandon just one man.