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[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
A player character is cetainly excused for doubting Loghain when he yields at the Landsmeet and promises to follow the player. Maric knows Loghain and would not doubt that Loghain would not betray an oath to step down peacefully.

This doesn't really matter.  Any one of numerous actions on Loghain's part merits execution in feudal law such as Ferelden's.  Naturally the ruler can offer clemency, but with the potential for civil war to continue?  I think Maric would do what he knows Loghain would advise him to do if it were any other man.

[jpdipity]

Maric and Loghain's relationship was strained and they did not appear to be the buddies that they once were. At the end of the Stolen Throne, it mentions that despite their "supposed legendary friendship", Loghain "never once came to the palace" and Maric only occassionaly visited Loghain in his home. Granted there are timeline issues again with that statement since Cailan is 12 yrs old there and 9 yrs old (which was changed to 5 yrs later) in the Calling.



Bottom line is that Maric and Loghain rarely even spoke anymore which makes their friendship tenuous at best.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
 Maric set Loghain in the direction that led to Ostagar and beyond.

Eh?  How do you figure that???

As I posted above. Maric made Loghain swear to never put one man above Fereldan. This was done in a context that left no doubt that this included a King. Maric knew how ruthless and obsessive Loghain was and still he made Loghain swear an oath to, in effect, get rid of the King of Fereldan if he thought it was for the best of the country.

I'm sure Maric would be horrified at the results, and  I realize that Maric had a dark streak too and could concievably kill Loghain in a fit of rage, but I do think he would see his part in what happened and feel remorse after.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
As I posted above. Maric made Loghain swear to never put one man above Fereldan. This was done in a context that left no doubt that this included a King. Maric knew how ruthless and obsessive Loghain was and still he made Loghain swear an oath to, in effect, get rid of the King of Fereldan if he thought it was for the best of the country.

I'm sure Maric would be horrified at the results, and  I realize that Maric had a dark streak too and could concievably kill Loghain in a fit of rage, but I do think he would see his part in what happened and feel remorse after.

And as I posted above, Loghain did not just abandon one man.  He abandoned a whole army.

[Addai]

Let me elaborate on my last post, because this is the reason why I won't ever spare Loghain, even to get some silly achievement.  I believe any number of his other actions would merit his execution, beginning with poisoning Eamon, but the real kicker is when I think of the rows of soldiers in Cailan's army that the camera pans over in the battle scene.  Including the man who was wavering but is pushed forward by his comrade.

Elric in RtO tells you that he fled his men when he saw Loghain's armies retreating rather than joining the attack.  Multiply that by the others who must have seen that they were being abandoned to their fate by a major force of Ferelden's armies.

Loghain dies, every time.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
As I posted above. Maric made Loghain swear to never put one man above Fereldan. This was done in a context that left no doubt that this included a King. Maric knew how ruthless and obsessive Loghain was and still he made Loghain swear an oath to, in effect, get rid of the King of Fereldan if he thought it was for the best of the country.

I'm sure Maric would be horrified at the results, and  I realize that Maric had a dark streak too and could concievably kill Loghain in a fit of rage, but I do think he would see his part in what happened and feel remorse after.

And as I posted above, Loghain did not just abandon one man.  He abandoned a whole army.

You are by this assuming that Loghain did in fact purposefully sacrificed Cailan and his whole army at Ostagar and that the battle could have been won. While this is a possibility it's not proven. What is known is that Loghain intended to remove Cailan and that it is hinted in the notes that Loghain may be deluding himself when he claims the Battle was lost when the beacon was lit. While I think it is likely that his decision to kill Cailan may have influenced his final decision, it's not really the same as sacrificing the army in cold blood. Either way it's not proven one way or the other. I appologize if I used the phrase 'to Ostagar and beyond' in a misleading way, but I meant Loghain's treachery towards Cailan and the result of it.

[shedevil3001]

well the reason i dont respect loghain is whether it was intentional or not back when kings were around, what he did by abandoning king cailan was treason, simple as, which in those days you would of been beheaded or hung for treason, at least in our history lessons from school this was the case, and if maric had of excepted help from orlais he would of done the same to maric, so for this reason alone, i either kill him or allow alistair to, depending on the origin i play, to me it seems the best option as i want people i trust with my life at my side, and unfortunatly i wouldnt ever beable to trust someone like loghain.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Let me elaborate on my last post, because this is the reason why I won't ever spare Loghain, even to get some silly achievement.  I believe any number of his other actions would merit his execution, beginning with poisoning Eamon, but the real kicker is when I think of the rows of soldiers in Cailan's army that the camera pans over in the battle scene.  Including the man who was wavering but is pushed forward by his comrade.

Elric in RtO tells you that he fled his men when he saw Loghain's armies retreating rather than joining the attack.  Multiply that by the others who must have seen that they were being abandoned to their fate by a major force of Ferelden's armies.

Loghain dies, every time.

Let me then also elaborate. I never intended to excuse Loghain by what I wrote. The fact that Loghain made an oath to Maric is no excuse what so ever in my eyes. A man is responsible for all his actions, even what oath he chooses to make. I was merely pointing out that Maric also has a lot to account for. Maric knew Loghain. Maric made Loghain swear an oath that really turned an obsessive man like Loghain into a ticking bomb. That was not the brightest move Maric ever made I think.

The question wasn't what I would do, it was what Maric would do.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2010 - 05:28 .

[Chasseresse]

Addai67 wrote...

Let me elaborate on my last post, because this is the reason why I won't ever spare Loghain, even to get some silly achievement.  I believe any number of his other actions would merit his execution, beginning with poisoning Eamon, but the real kicker is when I think of the rows of soldiers in Cailan's army that the camera pans over in the battle scene.  Including the man who was wavering but is pushed forward by his comrade.

Elric in RtO tells you that he fled his men when he saw Loghain's armies retreating rather than joining the attack.  Multiply that by the others who must have seen that they were being abandoned to their fate by a major force of Ferelden's armies.

Loghain dies, every time.

Exactly. To me it isn't about letting Cailan or even the other Grey Wardens die. It is the fact that Loghain quit the field, period, leaving EVERYONE down there to die. Unless DG said or says otherwise, from what WE can see in the cut scene, it does not look like he has a view of the battlefield and can actually see what is going on, who is gaining the upper hand, etc. (ie the whole point of the beacon was to signal him to enter the fight because he couldn't see the field). So in that regards, it doesn't matter if the battle was a lost cause from the start or not-he had no way of knowing what was going on until the beacon was lit, so he really doesn't have a good reason at the time to retreat.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Like i said before i dislike loghain to the extreme but the whole ostagar battle plan was flawed from the beginning. Sure loghain left him to die but for good reason if you to ask me personally i would have urged him to pull back and wait for the orlesians and the other wardens to arrive. Draw them foward inland and let them have ostagar. Instead calin was a little kid about it and wanted all the glory for himself.



Throwing himself at hordes of darkspawn. Like i said before as a general i respect loghains choice to pull out. I would not sacrafice my men for a foolish pampered king that knows nothing about how to manage a military engagement. But what loghian did after the fact is what i hated outlawing the wardens and having no contact with the orlesians cause of his fear of invasion. When in retrospec Orlais invading ferelden agian would be like america going back to vietnam not going to happen. So in the end loghain was right calins death was his own doing and i think calins foolishness cost many soldiers there lives so i hate calin just as much as loghain. Also to answer the question agian yes i do think he would of left maric if he made the same mistakes calin did and deffiently if he was constacting empress celen from Orlais for help.

[Xandurpein]

shedevil3001 wrote...

well the reason i dont respect loghain is whether it was intentional or not back when kings were around, what he did by abandoning king cailan was treason, simple as, which in those days you would of been beheaded or hung for treason, at least in our history lessons from school this was the case.

To quote Clavell's 'Shogun': It is ony treason if you loose. History abounds of betrayals and rebellions that went unpunished because they were successful. If not George Washington would have been strung up in tree. Just saying...

[RazorrX]

The 'army' that is down with Cailan is about ... 500 or so? I believe it was Loghains intention to use them as 'bait' to see exactly how big the darkspawn incursion was. This group was always intended to be sacrificed unless the darkspawn forces were small enough to just smack down. It made for sound tactical planning. This was done for a couple of reasons, one was as a means to kill off the Wardens, the other was to determine the force against them before the whole army was committed. Sound plan as Loghain views the Wardens as Orlesian Spies, and thinks they have too much influence on Cailan and he NEEDS the information on numbers before committing his whole army.



The problem was that Cailan JOINED the wardens on the front line against Loghains wishes. At that point he SHOULD have prevented it, or tried to rescue the king via a quick cavalry strike and withdraw. He did neither. That was his dilemma upon seeing the Tower lit. He may have been able to save Cailan, but he chose not to.

[CalJones]

That's a plausible theory, although 500 might be a conservative estimate. The templar outside the chantry in Denerim says the death toll at Ostagar was staggering, which seems to indicate it could be a lot more than that. I'm not sure that Loghain would want to sacrifice that many men unless he felt it was unavoidable. (Why he felt it was unavoidable is up for debate).



Ultimately, I'm not too sorry that Cailan died, given the contents of the warchest in RtO. Loghain may have become so obsessed by the Orlesians that he underestimates the darkspawn, but his suspicions are not entirely groundless.

[jpdipity]

CalJones wrote...

That's a plausible theory, although 500 might be a conservative estimate. The templar outside the chantry in Denerim says the death toll at Ostagar was staggering, which seems to indicate it could be a lot more than that. I'm not sure that Loghain would want to sacrifice that many men unless he felt it was unavoidable. (Why he felt it was unavoidable is up for debate).

Ultimately, I'm not too sorry that Cailan died, given the contents of the warchest in RtO. Loghain may have become so obsessed by the Orlesians that he underestimates the darkspawn, but his suspicions are not entirely groundless.

Wow...I agree with you, CalJones - 500 is probably conservative - where the heck did that number come from?  Logahin did not think the number was an easy sacrifice to make regardless of his intent, IMO.

I certainly have never felt sorry for Cailan - he should have suspected Loghain's possible betrayal - that is where we likely disagree.  I think Loghain made the sacrifice knowingly because of his paranoia over Orlais.

Modifié par jpdipity, 09 avril 2010 - 05:20 .

[RazorrX]

500 was a number I pulled out of thin air. It is based on how many people would it take to



A) create the cutscene battle

hold position at Ostagar while the main body of the army waited for a surprise attack.



That being said after RtO it is probably way too many since that area is so small. Figure even if you could cram 20 people in line there would have been 25 lines of warriors. Give another 50 or so to man the siege engines at top of Ostagar along with another 50 archers and you would have 600 people. If you wanted to be conservative then you *could* boost that up to around 1000 people, say about 1/4 of the total (no idea how many were there but there was a very large group behind Loghain when the torch was lit) forces at Ostagar. (again just a guess).



So if I was to plan the defense of Ostagar I would have put a small but strong group to 'hold' the area. Too many and they would just be wasted, so you have to put enough to do the job but not too few. Thus around 500 to 1000 just guessing should have been able to hold a significant force long enough for the main body to hit from behind, trapping them between your real damage and a bottleneck that offered no where to run.



The problem with the plan was that the darkspawn had amassed into a hoard by that time, and Ostagar was not a holdable position.