258292 réponses à ce sujet

[Levi va Normandy]

WHERE IS EVERYBODY-BODY-BODY-body..........

[Goat_Shepard]

Nivenus wrote...
That seems reaching to me. Nothing I've seen in ME1 and ME2, other than the fact that the geth were only encountered as enemies, supports the idea that the geth were "bloodthirsty." Even Tali's own statements seem more along the lines of "they'd kill us because they're synthetics and synthetics are always opposed to organics" and not "they'd kill us because we programmed them to be war machines." And both Tali and Legion seem to indicate that what drove the quarians to their decision was merely the possibility that the geth were sapient. Sure, they were worried about the impending slave revolt and its implications, but it's telling that what set the quarians off was the geth wondering if they had souls, not the geth expressing anger or killing a quarian accidentally.

And that's not supposition, that's exactly what both Tali and Legion say, that the impetus for the attempted deactivation of the geth was the geth's proceeding towards "I think therefore I am."

Again, I'm not condoning what happened to the quarians.

I'm not saying I didn't sympathize with Tali. I'm just saying I sympathized more with the geth who were tortured and brutally experimented on by Rael. There's was the greatest wound, the greatest loss.

Again, glad I could Paragon my way out of that by getting both to see reason.

Once  the geth are sapient (making them useless to the purpose of their creation) what other choice is there? You deactivate them. Geth couldn't handle that, and went terminator on them.

Could they have found a peaceful solution to the dilemma at the time? Yes, but look at quarian politics, it's a lot like American politics. Didn't they create the geth for manual labor? How can they make peace increasing the population and then lose resources and come out ok? That's a double whammy.

I have a hard time finding either at fault. It's really good writing by Bioware.

[chool77]

Nivenus wrote...

I'd hardly say no one's here. Besides, when it gets quiet is usually when the best things are said.

i like turtles!

[Collider]

[quote]Nivenus wrote...
That seems reaching to me. Nothing I've seen in ME1 and ME2, other than the fact that the geth were only encountered as enemies, supports the idea that the geth were "bloodthirsty."[/quote]
The fact that the Geth were working with Sovereign does not imply bloodthirstiness? In addition to basically being taught that the Geth are aggressors, the only geth she encountered in ME1 were entirely hostile. It was not the Geth, but it was the only Geth that you encountered. They all quite literally wanted to kill you. When I say bloodthirsty I don't literally mean thiristing for blood, but rather having a tendency for being violent with organics. You also need to put into context that the Morning War. Billions of Quarians died. If that does not imply a bloodbath, I don't know what does. And that was 300 years ago. No one knows about the peaceful Geth whatsoever. All they've known since the Morning War was violence from them. The Quarians were even driven from their colonies.

[quote]Even Tali's own statements seem more along the lines of "they'd kill us because they're synthetics and synthetics are always opposed to organics" and not "they'd kill us because we programmed them to be war machines."[/quote]
She wouldn't say that because the Quarians didn't program them to be war machines. They literally evolved to ask about their souls. Since that was not their purpose, they were basically malfunctioning. What do you do with malfunctioning hardware? You shut down it and try to assess the situation. The Geth then attacked. The Geth are being violent. Then you have an even greater imperative to try to shut them down, because they are now a threat.

[quote]And both Tali and Legion seem to indicate that what drove the quarians to their decision was merely the possibility that the geth were sapient. Sure, they were worried about the impending slave revolt and its implications, but it's telling that what set the quarians off was the geth wondering if they had souls, not the geth expressing anger or killing a quarian accidentally.[/quote]
I don't think it was only that. If I remember correctly, Artificial Intelligence was also illegal. So the Quarians are going to risk sanctions against them by the Council, possibly even alienation, just because the Geth software is essentially malfunctioning?

[/quote]
I'm not saying I didn't sympathize with Tali. I'm just saying I sympathized more with the geth who were tortured and brutally experimented on by Rael. There's was the greatest wound, the greatest loss.[/quote]
The Geth do not feel pain or emotion. They were not tortured, much less brutally, in the traditional sense. I agree it was wrong but Legion was not the spokesperson for the Geth that were tortured. The Geth that were tortured are dead and their torturers paid the price with their lives.

Modifié par Collider, 18 avril 2010 - 07:26 .

[Levi va Normandy]

pancakes!

[Collider]

@Nivenus

I see you're still discussing in the Liara thread. I think it's an important fact that had Liara or any of the other ME1 romances been fully fledged as a romance in ME2, there would be a disproportionate amount of romance for them compared to the ME2 romances. Essentially, continuing their romance in ME3 puts them on equal grounds to the ME2 romances. And considering how the ME1 romance characters are allegedly going to play large roles in ME3, I don't think they should grieve ME2 so much. Their characters are going to feature prominently and be integral to the plot, the ME2 romance characters are up in the air for the former.

[Napalm Jim]

Did Tali hack that one geth's brain before or after the attack on Eden Prime?

[Strawberry Kiwi]

Napalm Jim wrote...

Did Tali hack that one geth's brain before or after the attack on Eden Prime?

After. Saren says in the recording, and I quote:

"Eden Prime was a major victory! The beacon has brought us one step closer to finding the conduit."

/enterlurk

[Goat_Shepard]

@Napalm Jim that was a blonde moment lol
@Kiwi, I am the Lur King

@Collider

Good read. I've learned more in the last 15 minutes than in the entire day. This is why I joined these forums.

Gunna go back to configuring ME1..

Let's go, Tali:

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 18 avril 2010 - 07:37 .

[Napalm Jim]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

@Napalm Jim that was a blonde moment lol

Man, it sure was, wasn't it?  I blame it on these graveyard shifts they switched me to.


But thinking about it, the Geth reduced the Quarian population to less than 1% of their original numbers.  Isn't that technically classified as genocide by that point?

Edit: Oh and thanks to Kiwi for being patient with me.

Modifié par Napalm Jim, 18 avril 2010 - 07:47 .

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

The fact that the Geth were working with Sovereign does not imply bloodthirstiness?

It would, if their motivation did not appear to be religious, rather than genocidal (as Tali herself notices on Ferros), in nature. It doesn't justify their actions, but it, along with their 300 year absence from organic space, does imply that they weren't bloodthirsty by nature.

Collider wrote...

In addition to basically being taught that the Geth are aggressors, the only geth she encountered in ME1 were entirely hostile. It was not the Geth, but it was the only Geth that you encountered. They all quite literally wanted to kill you. When I say bloodthirsty I don't literally mean thiristing for blood, but rather having a tendency for being violent with organics. You also need to put into context that the Morning War. Billions of Quarians died. If that does not imply a bloodbath, I don't know what does. And that was 300 years ago. No one knows about the peaceful Geth whatsoever. All they've known since the Morning War was violence from them. The Quarians were even driven from their colonies.

 

But that was after the fact. That was after the quarians tried to deactivate the geth. You can't rationalize moral decisions based on unforseen consequences later. You can only justify them upon the then and the now, as well as any previous precedents, because that's what matters when you make your choice. Sure, the geth turned out to be genocidal against the quarians - I'm not denying that. But that can easily be seen as a consequence of the quarians' actions, not an inevitability. Few quarians are willing to admit that. I can see why, but I don't agree.

At the time of the Morning War, the geth, insofar as I can tell, had no history of violence. Therefore, an act of genocide against them was unjustified.

Collider wrote...

She wouldn't say that because the Quarians didn't program them to be war machines. They literally evolved to ask about their souls. Since that was not their purpose, they were basically malfunctioning. What do you do with malfunctioning hardware? You shut down it and try to assess the situation. The Geth then attacked. The Geth are being violent. Then you have an even greater imperative to try to shut them down, because they are now a threat.

And when the first human or quarian asked the question, they too were malfunctioning. As do all creatures that evolve.

I see your point; the quarians were creations of the geth and seen as property, so deactivating them seemed to be within their rights. But I cannot condone their actions, even if I understand tem, by any means, because every sapient has the right to life. To me, the clincher is that the quarians did not try to kill off the geth in spite of their potential sapience, but because they feared that they might be. The situation could have been handled more ethically, but the quarians opted for the most efficient solution.

Collider wrote...

I don't think it was only that. If I remember correctly, Artificial Intelligence was also illegal. So the Quarians are going to risk sanctions against them by the Council, possibly even alienation, just because the Geth software is essentially malfunctioning?

A good point, and certainly one the quarian government would have to take into consideration. However, it's clear that the geth were not intended to become sapient. It was an accident and it is likely that any serious investigation by the Council (although, this is the Council we're talking about) would have discovered this. The quarians may have faced sanctions, yes (although a rational Council would have either foregoed them or reduced them given the circumstances) but even so, economic hardship is preferable to genocide. Now, I understand that this argument wouldn't have sold to the quarian public, but it doesn't mean I believe it any less.

Collider wrote...

The Geth do not feel pain or emotion. They were not tortured, much less brutally, in the traditional sense. I agree it was wrong but Legion was not the spokesperson for the Geth that were tortured. The Geth that were tortured are dead and their torturers paid the price with their lives. 

I don't think the geth have emotions the same way quarians or humans do, no, but they do appear to be capable of emotions on some wavelength. Legion's response to Shepard's inquiry about his armor seems to indicate as much, as does the geth's interest in forming a peace with the "Creators." Likewise, the geth clearly have a form of religion (even the non-heretics, since the name "heretic" itself indicates religious orthodoxy), which also suggests emotion.

Yes, Legion says the geth do not have fear. I interpret this, however, to mean that geth emotions are simply alien, rather than nonexistent, and in my view they are no less worth consideration.


Well, this isn't where I expected the conversation to go but at least we've got some interesting discussion at last.

EDIT:

Collider wrote...

I see you're still discussing in the Liara thread. I think it's an important fact that had Liara or any of the other ME1 romances been fully fledged as a romance in ME2, there would be a disproportionate amount of romance for them compared to the ME2 romances. Essentially, continuing their romance in ME3 puts them on equal grounds to the ME2 romances. And considering how the ME1 romance characters are allegedly going to play large roles in ME3, I don't think they should grieve ME2 so much. Their characters are going to feature prominently and be integral to the plot, the ME2 romance characters are up in the air for the former.

I agree, and that's largely what I'm trying to get across. It's difficult though, given how touchy some of the folks are over there.

Modifié par Nivenus, 18 avril 2010 - 07:45 .

[chool77]

we need lolz!!!


[img]ht/img]

Modifié par chool77, 18 avril 2010 - 08:01 .

[chool77]

[/img]

Modifié par chool77, 18 avril 2010 - 08:01 .

[Nivenus]

chool77 wrote...

we need lolz!!!

*snip*

No, we don't.

[Shazzammer2]

I see the thread has died. I will take my leave and show my picture tomorrow.



Gents.

[chool77]

Nivenus wrote...

chool77 wrote...

we need lolz!!!

*snip*

No, we don't.

[img]http://www.

Modifié par chool77, 18 avril 2010 - 08:00 .

[chool77]

http:erfaceag2.jpg

Modifié par chool77, 18 avril 2010 - 08:00 .

[chool77]

[img]htimg]

Modifié par chool77, 18 avril 2010 - 08:00 .

[chool77]

antilles333 wrote...

Chool you look like a ****ing troll right now.

yea.... i kinda do... ok im done....

just super bored

[VandalX187]

Levi va Normandy wrote...

pancakes!

smells like cheese!!!

[Godur]

Morning people.

Anything happening?

[chool77]

antilles333 wrote...

No. You don't kinda do. You do.

....ok i think you made your point.... so you can stfu any time you want