258292 réponses à ce sujet

[sergio71785]

I really think Rael's email was a really big indicator that he was aware of Tali's feelings, and he wasn't happy about them.

[Phil725]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Azint wrote...
*snip*
They place a very high value over kinship, that's why quarians stick out for each other more than most other races. the problem is that Shepard is and always will be an outsider to them, he may be lauded for his work agains the geth, but he is still not one of them, that's why I doubt that Rael would really approve.

I don't see how they can value kinship, and then think less of Tali because her true love is someone who isn't a quarian.  That seems like a contradiction to me.  If they truly valued kinship, they would be happy for her regardless.  I still never got a vibe that quarians would disapprove of interspecies relationships though, unless I missed a quote.

The quarians have an Us against Them mentality.  The galaxy considers them second class citizens, thieves even and as such they have to look out for each other above others.  And they are organic, prone to baseless judgments like any other species. You can't expect someone to think as logically about it as you have, that's stupid and setting yourself up for disappointment.  You have to realize that the quarians are imperfect and having a hero fall for a non-quarian is like a betrayal for an emotional mind.  That falls outside their Us against Them mentality.

I still don't see an us vs them mentality in the quarians.  The vibe that I got from Tali was that quarians are somewhat accepting of their second class citizen status because of the mistakes made by their ancestors.  And they don't hold grudges against every other non geth race for that reason.  Nowhere in the game (that I know of,) do you see quarian xenophobia towards non geth.

I'm aware that they are open to baseless judgements like that, I just don't see people as closely involved such as Rael and Shala taking that view past a first impression.  Seeing what Shepard means to Tali, yet still trying to make her unhappy by forcing them apart because another human called you a thief is rather inane.

[Azint]

Phil725 wrote...

I fully understand that reaction as a first impression.  I just see the continuation of that thought process after all the cards are out on the table as incredibly insensitive and close minded.  I'm not saying that it can't happen, I just see it as unlikely that Rael cares about Tali, yet wouldn't be willing to have an open mind about the relationship.

The problem is that we do not know much about Rael aside from what Tali has told us, and the only time he ever speaks to you is in an e-mail that gives a strong over-protective father vibe. Rael's mindset is based on doing work for the benefit of the Flotilla, he is a reputed disciplinary and wants only success. That kind of background does not really hint at an open-minded individual.

He may accept it over time, but it will likely take a lot to prove to Rael.

Modifié par Azint, 09 avril 2010 - 08:55 .

[herbie dog]

/uploads_user/1471000/1470935/26277.jpg
Bye Everyone..

Modifié par herbie dog, 09 avril 2010 - 08:54 .

[Azint]

BigKahuna25 wrote...

check the edit too.

Crap.

[sergio71785]

[Phil725]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
*snip*
So I'm the only one that thinks Rael wouldn't mind? 

Maybe I'm taking Tali's personality as too much of a representation of the rest of the quarians, but they seem like perfectly accepting people to me.  I see the normal reaction being something like "He's a human?  That's odd.  But look at how much he loves you.  And he's so charming and heroic.  Good for you ;)"

And of course, like you say, I'm still getting their homeworld back on top of the rest of the stuff

Just the only one in a three person discussion.  My impressions of Rael's perception of shepard comes from his email that he sent you.  Very threatening and very condescending.  He states that he thinks I used my history with Tali to manipulate her into join me again.  Not very accepting of Tali's decision.

I think the difference is that we're looking at the email differently.  I think he disapproves of her putting herself in danger based on some crush that will only get her killed.  I'm sure he doesn't see you two getting together and leading a happy life. 

I don't see how his opinion doesn't soften once he sees how the relationship has changed from pre ME2 to post ME2.

Modifié par Phil725, 09 avril 2010 - 08:54 .

[NuclearBuddha]

sergio71785 wrote...

I really think Rael's email was a really big indicator that he was aware of Tali's feelings, and he wasn't happy about them.

Yup.

[BigKahuna25]

ok, leaving for real this time.

[NuclearBuddha]

Phil725 wrote...
I think the difference is that we're looking at the email differently.  I think he disapproves of her putting herself in danger based on some crush that will only get her killed.  I'm sure he doesn't see you two getting together and leading a happy life. 

I don't see how his opinion doesn't soften once he sees how the relationship has changed from pre ME2 to post ME2.

And when his worst fears are realized...

[Phil725]

sergio71785 wrote...

I really think Rael's email was a really big indicator that he was aware of Tali's feelings, and he wasn't happy about them.

It has to be looked at in context though.  At that point, he sees his daughter has a crush on some hero who will never care about her, and will only break her heart if he doesn't get her killed first.  I can't see Rael expecting you to reciprocate Tali's feelings.

[Azint]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Azint wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yeah, but even grunts have a certain degree of operational freedom.  You don't think that lieutenants or higher tell every grunt exactly what cover to get behind?  They trust the grunts to keep their heads down.  For some reason the most elite team of soldiers don't know what it means to keep your head down.  Climbing onto cover instead of taking cover behind it? Really?

Oh, and ME TOO BRO.

It's a game.

WHAT?!!!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! I DEMAND ACTION!!!!

EDIT: BRO

YOU CANT CHANGE FACT BRO I KNOW IT SUCKS

[sergio71785]

If Rael survived...

From: Shepard
To: Rael'Zorah
Subject: RE:

Just thought you'd like to know, Tali has a pretty bad fever right now.

[Lividity Jones]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
I think the difference is that we're looking at the email differently.  I think he disapproves of her putting herself in danger based on some crush that will only get her killed.  I'm sure he doesn't see you two getting together and leading a happy life. 

I don't see how his opinion doesn't soften once he sees how the relationship has changed from pre ME2 to post ME2.

And when his worst fears are realized...

Rael: Keelah! My daughter is actually happy with a human?!

Edit: I'm imagining Rael in this cartoon-villain sense, throwing a fit when Shepard gets to be a dashing hero.

Modifié par Lividity Jones, 09 avril 2010 - 09:02 .

[Phil725]

Azint wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

I fully understand that reaction as a first impression.  I just see the continuation of that thought process after all the cards are out on the table as incredibly insensitive and close minded.  I'm not saying that it can't happen, I just see it as unlikely that Rael cares about Tali, yet wouldn't be willing to have an open mind about the relationship.

The problem is that we do not know much about Rael aside from what Tali has told us, and the only time he ever speaks to you is in an e-mail that gives a strong over-protective father vibe. Rael's mindset is based on doing work for the benefit of the Flotilla, he is a reputed disciplinary and wants only success. That kind of background does not really hint at an open-minded individual.

He may accept it over time, but it will likely take a lot to prove to Rael.

I'll take that.  I wouldn't think he truly loved Tali if he didn't make sure my intentions were genuine first.  I do see a complete  unwillingness to accept it as proof that he never really cared though, and I don't think thats true.

[GuardianAngel470]

Phil725 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Azint wrote...
*snip*
They place a very high value over kinship, that's why quarians stick out for each other more than most other races. the problem is that Shepard is and always will be an outsider to them, he may be lauded for his work agains the geth, but he is still not one of them, that's why I doubt that Rael would really approve.

I don't see how they can value kinship, and then think less of Tali because her true love is someone who isn't a quarian.  That seems like a contradiction to me.  If they truly valued kinship, they would be happy for her regardless.  I still never got a vibe that quarians would disapprove of interspecies relationships though, unless I missed a quote.

The quarians have an Us against Them mentality.  The galaxy considers them second class citizens, thieves even and as such they have to look out for each other above others.  And they are organic, prone to baseless judgments like any other species. You can't expect someone to think as logically about it as you have, that's stupid and setting yourself up for disappointment.  You have to realize that the quarians are imperfect and having a hero fall for a non-quarian is like a betrayal for an emotional mind.  That falls outside their Us against Them mentality.

I still don't see an us vs them mentality in the quarians.  The vibe that I got from Tali was that quarians are somewhat accepting of their second class citizen status because of the mistakes made by their ancestors.  And they don't hold grudges against every other non geth race for that reason.  Nowhere in the game (that I know of,) do you see quarian xenophobia towards non geth.

I'm aware that they are open to baseless judgements like that, I just don't see people as closely involved such as Rael and Shala taking that view past a first impression.  Seeing what Shepard means to Tali, yet still trying to make her unhappy by forcing them apart because another human called you a thief is rather inane.

Inane but organic. People don't need a reason to hate, they just do.  I'm not saying the quarians are xenophobic, just that the fleet comes first and by extension, the quarian race.  And fathers (and brothers) have a nasty habit of getting in the way for their daughter's "best interests."  The email I got from Rael gave me the impression that he is that type of father.  Uninvolved when the daughter wants him involved, involved when she doesn't.  He just came across as that type of person.  You may not see it which is a difference of opinion, I can't change your mind.

Shala I could see accepting shepard, but not Rael.  Maybe Han, but not Rael.

[Lividity Jones]

sergio71785 wrote...

If Rael survived...

From: Shepard
To: Rael'Zorah
Subject: RE:

Just thought you'd like to know, Tali has a pretty bad fever right now.

Haha! Shepard you magnificent bastard!

[Azint]

sergio71785 wrote...

If Rael survived...

From: Shepard
To: Rael'Zorah
Subject: RE:

Just thought you'd like to know, Tali has a pretty bad fever right now.

I'm laughing.

[GuardianAngel470]

Azint wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Azint wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yeah, but even grunts have a certain degree of operational freedom.  You don't think that lieutenants or higher tell every grunt exactly what cover to get behind?  They trust the grunts to keep their heads down.  For some reason the most elite team of soldiers don't know what it means to keep your head down.  Climbing onto cover instead of taking cover behind it? Really?

Oh, and ME TOO BRO.

It's a game.

WHAT?!!!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! I DEMAND ACTION!!!!

EDIT: BRO

YOU CANT CHANGE FACT BRO I KNOW IT SUCKS

LIFE SUCKS BRO

[Phil725]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
I think the difference is that we're looking at the email differently.  I think he disapproves of her putting herself in danger based on some crush that will only get her killed.  I'm sure he doesn't see you two getting together and leading a happy life. 

I don't see how his opinion doesn't soften once he sees how the relationship has changed from pre ME2 to post ME2.

And when his worst fears are realized...

I completely disagree with this point.  That implies that he's racist towards humans, and changes everything completely.  I don't think thats true at all.  No way to prove it, but again, I don't see any evidence for flat out racism.

I was saying that he doesn't want Tali risking her life for someone that will never care about her in the same way.  If Shepard cares about her in the same way, the whole dynamic changes.

[NuclearBuddha]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Shala I could see accepting shepard, but not Rael.  Maybe Han, but not Rael.

I agree with this.  Han seemed like a rolicking "hey, whatever, make it an adventure" kinda dude.

[Azint]

Phil725 wrote...

I'll take that.  I wouldn't think he truly loved Tali if he didn't make sure my intentions were genuine first.  I do see a complete  unwillingness to accept it as proof that he never really cared though, and I don't think thats true.

I'm sure Rael does care for Tali, but I don't think he fully trusts Shepard is all.

[sergio71785]

I think the Little Mermaid is a pretty good analog to the whole Rael/Shepard/Tali discussion. 

[Lividity Jones]

sergio71785 wrote...

I think the Little Mermaid is a pretty good analog to the whole Rael/Shepard/Tali discussion. 

My God...

It actually makes sense...

[NuclearBuddha]

Phil725 wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
I think the difference is that we're looking at the email differently.  I think he disapproves of her putting herself in danger based on some crush that will only get her killed.  I'm sure he doesn't see you two getting together and leading a happy life. 

I don't see how his opinion doesn't soften once he sees how the relationship has changed from pre ME2 to post ME2.

And when his worst fears are realized...

I completely disagree with this point.  That implies that he's racist towards humans, and changes everything completely.  I don't think thats true at all.  No way to prove it, but again, I don't see any evidence for flat out racism.

I was saying that he doesn't want Tali risking her life for someone that will never care about her in the same way.  If Shepard cares about her in the same way, the whole dynamic changes.

It's not racism.  It's Tali leaving the Flotilla.  And how is Rael going to believe that anyone besides a quarian is truly going to understand how a quarian lives?