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[Collider]

I see your point. Fair enough.

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Azint wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
Sounds like we've done our job, then.  One of the reasons I write FF at all (because let's face it, it's not high art in general) is to enhance the experience of playing.

Most "high art" is done and admired by pompous, over-educated, pretentious, single-minded clods who spend more time talking about their class rather than appreciating the values of what they cherish and instead keep for the sake of it.

HA!  True.  I'd read Calinstel over James Joyce any day.  But I'm just saying that Noir Tali is Noir is no Andre Norton or Tolkien or The Black Company or whatever.

Art is in the eye of the beholder.

If someone, anyone, prefers Noir Tali is Noir over The Hobbit, then it's good art to someone. That is all that you can ask for.

[cannedcream]

Azint wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Sounds like we've done our job, then.  One of the reasons I write FF at all (because let's face it, it's not high art in general) is to enhance the experience of playing.

Most "high art" is done and admired by pompous, over-educated, pretentious, single-minded clods who spend more time talking about their class rather than appreciating the values of what they cherish and instead keep for the sake of it.

No one seems to be able to agree on what 'art' is.
Personally, I think art is something that someone has created that you feel; if it's joy or anger or sadness or whatever. If it stirs your emotions in some way, than it should count.

The noir is art.
The Raela stories were art.
The renegade Tali stuff is art.
Maybe none of it will ever hang in a museum or be printed in a leather-bound hardcover, but as long as it makes the reader or viewer feel than it's of no lesser value.

Of course, all of that is just opinion.

[Azint]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

HA!  True.  I'd read Calinstel over James Joyce any day.  But I'm just saying that Noir Tali is Noir is no Andre Norton or Tolkien or The Black Company or whatever.

Some of the "classier" folk are just so dull. Pop culture enthusiasists tend to be more lively and you can actually hold a conversation with them that may not always slip into semantic debates about what an author was trying to say in a book written in a completely different time and having rather gnomic ideals based on todays standards.

Modifié par Azint, 25 juin 2010 - 08:12 .

[NuclearBuddha]

Collider wrote...
I see your point. Fair enough.

Again, I want to stress I have no ill-will toward TZO or anyone there.  I don't feel they're splitting the community or anything like that.  And I lurk there, too, so there's that.  I guess I'm just kinda set in my ways.

[Andaius20]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Collider wrote...
True. Maybe I'm just more annoyed by trolls than others. Just wished some of the more intelligent posters of the thread didn't have to post in an unmoderated environment that often turns sour and uncomfortable.

Okay, I think I have a better way to say it:  Here, there's a kind of vitality.  When stuff starts rolling on the night shift, you never know who's watching.  And there are a lot of lurkers.  We could do our thing on TZO, but we'd basically just be doing it for ourselves.

Does that make sense?

And really, this time of night, the kids are all in bed, so there's rarely a real troll problem.

Agreed, I usually don't log in until atleast 6-8 pm. This is the only place for my Daily Tali dose for me.

[RiptideX1090]

cannedcream wrote...

Azint wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Sounds like we've done our job, then.  One of the reasons I write FF at all (because let's face it, it's not high art in general) is to enhance the experience of playing.

Most "high art" is done and admired by pompous, over-educated, pretentious, single-minded clods who spend more time talking about their class rather than appreciating the values of what they cherish and instead keep for the sake of it.

No one seems to be able to agree on what 'art' is.
Personally, I think art is something that someone has created that you feel; if it's joy or anger or sadness or whatever. If it stirs your emotions in some way, than it should count.

The noir is art.
The Raela stories were art.
The renegade Tali stuff is art.
Maybe none of it will ever hang in a museum or be printed in a leather-bound hardcover, but as long as it makes the reader or viewer feel than it's of no lesser value.

Of course, all of that is just opinion.

Art as described by HK-47 and Bruce Lee:

Art is doing more with less. It is taking what you have, and using different things, you make a greater whole that is worth more than the sum of the parts. It is finesse. It's finding a way to get from point A, to point B in the most effecient way possible. It is how you get there that is your expression, and your expression is what makes art. It is building something up, tearing apart what you don't need, and keeping the essentials.

[Azint]

Art is the work of context and ideas you value.

[NuclearBuddha]

Azint wrote...
Some of the "classier" folk are just so dull. Pop culture enthusiasists tend to be more lively and you can actually hold a conversation with them that may not always slip into semantic debates about what an author was trying to say in a book written in a completely different time and having rather gnomic ideals based on todays standards.

That and James Joyce was an f-ing pervert.  Have you read his letters?  Christ almighty.

[khevan]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

HA!  True.  I'd read Calinstel over James Joyce any day.  But I'm just saying that Noir Tali is Noir is no Andre Norton or Tolkien or The Black Company or whatever.

I think you do yourself a disservice, here.  Fanfiction is definately a niche artform, as in, it's really only appreciated by fans of the core fiction being written around, but it's no less of an artform than those others. 

Literary critics may well disagree with me here, but I've had more fun reading the likes of Noir Tali, and cannedcream's Drifting (and other works on his FanFiction site, some of it is just...dayum. It's good.)

I'm actually amazed by the talent of alot of the folks on the night crew of the Tali-thread.  It's actually inspired me to try my hand at writing, and that's something to say.  If your writing can inspire others to try to emulate you, you've gone beyond mere ars gratis artis, and into something more profound.

[NCLanceman]

cannedcream wrote...

No one seems to be able to agree on what 'art' is.
Personally, I think art is something that someone has created that you feel; if it's joy or anger or sadness or whatever. If it stirs your emotions in some way, than it should count.

The noir is art.
The Raela stories were art.
The renegade Tali stuff is art.
Maybe none of it will ever hang in a museum or be printed in a leather-bound hardcover, but as long as it makes the reader or viewer feel than it's of no lesser value.

Of course, all of that is just opinion.

That's it. Time to get off my ass and seriously start writing N7. What the hell am I doing here? I've even got notes on that thing. I've got some writing to do... first thing in the morning.

[Collider]

Art is whatever you define art as. If I had to reduce art to it's base components, I'd say that art is the application of creativity, but even that would not encompass the whole picture.

[cannedcream]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

To hell with that.

I have everyone I like right here. I prefer the oversight of the mods, and at least moderately on topic conversation.

I'm staying.

My reasons were pretty much the same.

I lurk on TZO and post there from time to time when I have something to say (or rather, a pun of a comment to make, let's be honest here), but this will always be where I go first and stay longest.

[RiptideX1090]

Azint wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

HA!  True.  I'd read Calinstel over James Joyce any day.  But I'm just saying that Noir Tali is Noir is no Andre Norton or Tolkien or The Black Company or whatever.

Some of the "classier" folk are just so dull. Pop culture enthusiasists tend to be more lively and you can actually hold a conversation with them that may not always slip into semantic debates about what an author was trying to say in a book written in a completely different time and having rather gnomic ideals based on todays standards.

I hate that. English teachers shove that **** down your throat like mad.

Lord of the Flies. Piggy's glasses getting Shattered. Had to write a paper on why it signified the death of intelligence and reason. Why the hell cant' it be a guy's glasses getting broken? Who cares? Yeah, it's cool the author put something clever in there, but what about the characters? Why should I care about Ralph? Why the **** is Jack so loopy? Someone tell me something! WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?

[Azint]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

That and James Joyce was an f-ing pervert.  Have you read his letters?  Christ almighty.

To be fair; most great men are perverts. Most men are perverts.

[Azint]

khevan wrote...

I think you do yourself a disservice, here.  Fanfiction is definately a niche artform, as in, it's really only appreciated by fans of the core fiction being written around, but it's no less of an artform than those others. 

Literary critics may well disagree with me here, but I've had more fun reading the likes of Noir Tali, and cannedcream's Drifting (and other works on his FanFiction site, some of it is just...dayum. It's good.)

I'm actually amazed by the talent of alot of the folks on the night crew of the Tali-thread.  It's actually inspired me to try my hand at writing, and that's something to say.  If your writing can inspire others to try to emulate you, you've gone beyond mere ars gratis artis, and into something more profound.

These guys introduced me to fanfiction, reading and writing.

Damn you all.

[cannedcream]

NCLanceman wrote...




That's it. Time to get off my ass and seriously start writing N7. What the hell am I doing here? I've even got notes on that thing. I've got some writing to do... first thing in the morning.

That's the spirit.

[NuclearBuddha]

Azint wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
That and James Joyce was an f-ing pervert.  Have you read his letters?  Christ almighty.

To be fair; most great men are perverts. Most men are perverts.

Not like James Joyce.  Not like James Joyce.

[cannedcream]

Azint wrote...

These guys introduced me to fanfiction, reading and writing.

Damn you all.

Oh you love it.

[Azint]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

I hate that. English teachers shove that **** down your throat like mad.

Lord of the Flies. Piggy's glasses getting Shattered. Had to write a paper on why it signified the death of intelligence and reason. Why the hell cant' it be a guy's glasses getting broken? Who cares? Yeah, it's cool the author put something clever in there, but what about the characters? Why should I care about Ralph? Why the **** is Jack so loopy? Someone tell me something! WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?

I actually liked Lord of the Flies, not as much as 1984 or Of Mice and Men, but I did not feel like I was wasting my time reading it. Catcher in the Rye however...

I hate that book. I hate Holden Caulfied.

I wrote a seven-page essay on why I thought it was a terrible book, for an assignment to explain what was important in our readings for it.

[Strawberry Kiwi]

khevan wrote...

I think you do yourself a disservice, here.  Fanfiction is definately a niche artform, as in, it's really only appreciated by fans of the core fiction being written around, but it's no less of an artform than those others. 

Literary critics may well disagree with me here, but I've had more fun reading the likes of Noir Tali, and cannedcream's Drifting (and other works on his FanFiction site, some of it is just...dayum. It's good.)

I'm actually amazed by the talent of alot of the folks on the night crew of the Tali-thread.  It's actually inspired me to try my hand at writing, and that's something to say.  If your writing can inspire others to try to emulate you, you've gone beyond mere ars gratis artis, and into something more profound.

Agreed. I believe this was discussed the other day.

I actually wrote some ideas down, and have gotten started on a rough draft of a story.

I never thought I'd write anything other than the 'necessary' essays written in class. It's been fun so far.
I really want to see if I go through with writing it or not. :happy:

[El-Destructo]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
I hate that. English teachers shove that **** down your throat like mad.

Writing papers interpreting random bull the teachers seem to have an interest in is probably the main reason I nearly fail every English course I've ever taken despite having rather good spelling and grammar. :innocent:

[khevan]

Collider wrote...

Art is whatever you define art as. If I had to reduce art to it's base components, I'd say that art is the application of creativity, but even that would not encompass the whole picture.

As Justice Potter once said, "I know it when I see it."

He may have been talking about...something a bit more unsavory (depending on your tastes), but the words ring true here as well.  Art is a personal thing, something that cannot be defined objectively.  You can't say "This, and this and this, along with this is what's needed for it to be art."  It's too subjective to quantify.

[Andaius20]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Azint wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
That and James Joyce was an f-ing pervert.  Have you read his letters?  Christ almighty.

To be fair; most great men are perverts. Most men are perverts.

Not like James Joyce.  Not like James Joyce.

Tali: oh keelah what was that?!?

[Azint]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Azint wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
That and James Joyce was an f-ing pervert.  Have you read his letters?  Christ almighty.

To be fair; most great men are perverts. Most men are perverts.

Not like James Joyce.  Not like James Joyce.

"Crash" by Dave Matthews Band, I love that song. So many people mistake erotic and lecherous for romantic and sweet.