258292 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearBuddha]

Lividity Jones wrote...
It seems likely. She'll likely build on Rael's research.

Dumbing down the geth will only make them a less-efficient fighting force.

Not what she wants.

Better that they are simply made obedient.

Rael's research was a war crime.  How can she build something morally or ethically positive from that?

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Thundertactics wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

I think not.  She explicitly denies geth personhood.  You know, her speech about doing whatever she pleases to tools?

Yes, yes. Childhood toys 'n all that.
But she might realise that this simply won't work (geth constantly using others linked to the neural network to back-up and reboot), she may eventually come to the conclusion that an adjustment to their lower algorithms is the only possible way to "reclaim" them, even if they're slightly (more advanced and) different tools than before.

Might might might.  Let's keep the argument closer to just what can be proven within the game as it stands.  Otherwise you might as well assume that she really is a kind and gentle person and the only thing she plans, despite everything she says, is to give the geth the parental love they never had.

Xen never struck me as being the maternal type... 

I agree. We need to keep things in perspective.

[Savakka1]

Someone With Mass wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Indeed.

Just saying, there are still things we don't know. We'l see where it goes. In all seriousnessness, I'll likely opt for peace and end up shooting Xen between the eyes.

Who knows. Paragon Shep can solve almost anything without shooting someone. Almost.

Almost? To me it seems that this far he has done awesome job with it.

[NuclearBuddha]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Who knows. Paragon Shep can solve almost anything without shooting someone. Almost.

Sometimes he has to make people shoot themselves, yeah.

[Thundertactics]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Might might might.  Let's keep the argument closer to just what can be proven within the game as it stands.  Otherwise you might as well assume that she really is a kind and gentle person and the only thing she plans, despite everything she says, is to give the geth the parental love they never had.

What the game has proven is that she is hellbent on reinstating the quarians to their former role of power.
To accomplish this, she wants to use the geth.
She does not think highly of them, and does not care how she reclaims them.
But she is not an idiot, if she can find a way to keep them "smart" while still maintaining obedience, she will definitely go for this route.

[Lividity Jones]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...
It seems likely. She'll likely build on Rael's research.

Dumbing down the geth will only make them a less-efficient fighting force.

Not what she wants.

Better that they are simply made obedient.

Rael's research was a war crime.  How can she build something morally or ethically positive from that?

The word "positive" has nothing to do with this.

In her mind, she is right.

In your mind, you are right.

There is only grey here.

As for it being a war crime, I sincerely doubt she cares. They are tools. Nothing more, as far as she's concerned.

[NuclearBuddha]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Thundertactics wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
I think not.  She explicitly denies geth personhood.  You know, her speech about doing whatever she pleases to tools?

Yes, yes. Childhood toys 'n all that.
But she might realise that this simply won't work (geth constantly using others linked to the neural network to back-up and reboot), she may eventually come to the conclusion that an adjustment to their lower algorithms is the only possible way to "reclaim" them, even if they're slightly (more advanced and) different tools than before.

Might might might.  Let's keep the argument closer to just what can be proven within the game as it stands.  Otherwise you might as well assume that she really is a kind and gentle person and the only thing she plans, despite everything she says, is to give the geth the parental love they never had.

Xen never struck me as being the maternal type... 

I agree. We need to keep things in perspective.

Yeah, that's my argument.  Xen never struck me as the type to treat her tools with the care and respect a sentient being might deserve.  But if we're just making stuff up and ignoring what she says in-game...

[mikethor007]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
Who knows. Paragon Shep can solve almost anything without shooting someone. Almost.

Sometimes he has to make people shoot themselves, yeah.

I doubt that they would repeat the scene though.

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...
It seems likely. She'll likely build on Rael's research.

Dumbing down the geth will only make them a less-efficient fighting force.

Not what she wants.

Better that they are simply made obedient.

Rael's research was a war crime.  How can she build something morally or ethically positive from that?

Well...

Option A: Geth return planet to quarians. Geth go off to build Geth "Reaper", implications possibly dangerous. Peace, provided the Geth don't go "Vanguard of your Destruction" on the galaxy. Likely wont, but you won't know that first time making the choice.

Option B: Xen re-enslaves the geth, permenantly. Quarians are back on Rannoch, now with the largest army in the universe. They take a seat on the Council, now having the military forces to demand it, and rebuild quickly with geth aid.

There are merits and problems with both.

[NuclearBuddha]

Thundertactics wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
Might might might.  Let's keep the argument closer to just what can be proven within the game as it stands.  Otherwise you might as well assume that she really is a kind and gentle person and the only thing she plans, despite everything she says, is to give the geth the parental love they never had.

What the game has proven is that she is hellbent on reinstating the quarians to their former role of power.
To accomplish this, she wants to use the geth.
She does not think highly of them, and does not care how she reclaims them.
But she is not an idiot, if she can find a way to keep them "smart" while still maintaining obedience, she will definitely go for this route.

Allowing them even rudimentary smarts is what got the quarians in the mess in the first place.  No, she wants tools.  And synthetic or organic, no sentient deserves that.

[Thundertactics]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Yeah, that's my argument.  Xen never struck me as the type to treat her tools with the care and respect a sentient being might deserve.  But if we're just making stuff up and ignoring what she says in-game...

Again, this isn't about them maintaining sentience or granting leeway.
If she can have smart tools, she'd prefer those.
(Like an old-school bead counting rack vs. a calculator, they both perform the same task, but one's clearly better than the other)

[Hackett923]

[Someone With Mass]

mikethor007 wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
Who knows. Paragon Shep can solve almost anything without shooting someone. Almost.

Sometimes he has to make people shoot themselves, yeah.

I doubt that they would repeat the scene though.

Yeah. The thought of having power to make someone off himself with just a few words is a little unsettling.

[mikethor007]

Hackett923 wrote...

FINALLY!

[RiptideX1090]

Thundertactics wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Yeah, that's my argument.  Xen never struck me as the type to treat her tools with the care and respect a sentient being might deserve.  But if we're just making stuff up and ignoring what she says in-game...

Again, this isn't about them maintaining sentience or granting leeway.
If she can have smart tools, she'd prefer those.
(Like an old-school bead counting rack vs. a calculator, they both perform the same task, but one's clearly better than the other)

Except this calculator has the possiblity of shooting you in the face if it outgrows it's programming, which it did before. TWICE.

I can see and reason with both arguements.

[NuclearBuddha]

Lividity Jones wrote...
In her mind, she is right.

In your mind, you are right.

There is only grey here.

As for it being a war crime, I sincerely doubt she cares. They are tools. Nothing more, as far as she's concerned.

Moral relativism aside, I think we can agree, like Mordin (and the rest of the galaxy), that experimenting on unwilling, sentient subjects is wrong.

Similarly, the galaxy in general agrees that slavery is wrong, without caveat for synthetic or organic life.

Do you really want to take the opposite position?  Or are you just stating Xen's point of view?  If that's the case, then thank you for bolstering my position.

Modifié par NuclearBuddha, 28 juin 2010 - 07:36 .

[RiptideX1090]

mikethor007 wrote...

Hackett923 wrote...

FINALLY!

Beautiful...

Those legs...

[TTTX]

can only post this busy writing.

poll.

[Thundertactics]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Allowing them even rudimentary smarts is what got the quarians in the mess in the first place.  No, she wants tools.  And synthetic or organic, no sentient deserves that.

Those "rudimentary smarts" were largely unexpected, and a mere side effect of a seemingly harmless feature.
This time, the quarians will know what to expect, and they won't follow the same routes their ancestors took.
(Chances are, fail-safes this time 'round)

[NuclearBuddha]

Thundertactics wrote...
Again, this isn't about them maintaining sentience or granting leeway.
If she can have smart tools, she'd prefer those.
(Like an old-school bead counting rack vs. a calculator, they both perform the same task, but one's clearly better than the other)

Poor anology.  Neither abacus nor calculator has any value on par with a sentient being.

I'm sure that the theoretically still-sentient geth will appreciate having hard blocks put on their behavior in your scenario.  They'll just love knowing that certain courses of action will be absolutely denied to them by forcible programming.  I know I would.  Oh, wait.

[Someone With Mass]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Well...

Option A: Geth return planet to quarians. Geth go off to build Geth "Reaper", implications possibly dangerous. Peace, provided the Geth don't go "Vanguard of your Destruction" on the galaxy. Likely wont, but you won't know that first time making the choice.

Option B: Xen re-enslaves the geth, permenantly. Quarians are back on Rannoch, now with the largest army in the universe. They take a seat on the Council, now having the military forces to demand it, and rebuild quickly with geth aid.

There are merits and problems with both.

I could see the benefits of having the quarians as rulers.

At least it sounds better to have them than the current Council.

[Lividity Jones]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Moral relativism aside, I think we can agree, like Mordin (and the rest of the galaxy), that experimenting on unwilling, sentient subjects is wrong.

Similarly, the galaxy in general agrees that slavery is wrong, without caveat for synthetic or organic life.

Do you really want to take the opposite position?  Or are you just stating Xen's point of view?  If that's the case, then thank you for bolstering my position.

I'm not arguing whether or not it's wrong.

I'm just saying there isn't enough data to judge her and her motivations.

We don't know for sure why she believes what she believes.

I'm trying to come to grips with that through this project.

[NuclearBuddha]

Thundertactics wrote...
Those "rudimentary smarts" were largely unexpected, and a mere side effect of a seemingly harmless feature.
This time, the quarians will know what to expect, and they won't follow the same routes their ancestors took.
(Chances are, fail-safes this time 'round)

See above.

[NuclearBuddha]

Lividity Jones wrote...
I'm not arguing whether or not it's wrong.

I'm just saying there isn't enough data to judge her and her motivations.

We don't know for sure why she believes what she believes.

I'm trying to come to grips with that through this project.

And I'm saying her motivations are beside the point.  If my life was full of tragedy or whatever, that wouldn't excuse any genocidal plots I came up with.  We know what she wants.  Why she wants it is not the issue.