258292 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Savakka1 wrote...

KnotEngaged wrote...

What can I say?  The truth hurts.  Being objective, if I am an Admiral Shepard's speech comes across as a desperate plea and attempt to cover the fact that he has no evidence to prove Tali's innocence and doesn't sway my opinion of her guilt.  It is tragic, but such is the life of a quarian.

I'm not sure about it, but it doesn't seem that Admiralty has any solid evidence pointing directly at Tali. They only know that Geth have overtaken the Alarei. Tali was a natural/best scapegoat for this, as her father was left onboard.

  

You right the charges are weak at best but the trail was really a power struggle between the  five of them about  direction of the  Fleet going forward.  If word got out that not only was Ra'el developing weapons to use against the Geth but was making great head way  then the tides would swing to war and Like Reagar stated its a war that the Quarians simply can not win... period.  Thats why Qwib Qwib pushed for the trail and the Exile... Hell and you can't argue it was pretty crappy judgement on her part if a send a mechanic enough pieces of  car eventually he or  she will be able to put the car back together in working order.   Where the debate lies in weather or not it grounds for Exile. 

[NCLanceman]

KnotEngaged wrote...

If Tali is exiled the crowd agrees with the decision of the Admirals (you can hear the people in the hallways of the ship saying this).  Tali doesn't deserve exile, we know this, but I'm playing Devil's Advocate here and trying to be objective.  As a judge my job is to judge the person on trial based on the evidence collected and presented, and a heartfelt speech, while nice, is not evidence.  I think it would have been more realistic and better served the story if that fact was kept in mind by the writers.  Tali's trial is all about politics, but the most important trials in history have always had political overtones to them, and many of them have not gotten the verdict right (Dred Scott, Plessy v Freguson).
I'm not ok with Tali being exiled, I just think that thematically without presenting the actual evidence it should be a much harder thing to avoid in the game.

Tali's case for guilt is entirely circumstantial with no real evidence whatsoever. Shepard's defense is that there's no set of circumstances that would allow Tali to betray the Fleet. Talking to the Admirals and calling them out on the purely political nature of the trial is just icing on the cake. Shepard's Chewbacca Defense here makes sense because the initial arguement didn't make a damn bit of sense either.

[Phil725]

KnotEngaged wrote...
*snip*

If Tali is exiled the crowd agrees with the decision of the Admirals (you can hear the people in the hallways of the ship saying this).  Tali doesn't deserve exile, we know this, but I'm playing Devil's Advocate here and trying to be objective.  As a judge my job is to judge the person on trial based on the evidence collected and presented, and a heartfelt speech, while nice, is not evidence.  I think it would have been more realistic and better served the story if that fact was kept in mind by the writers.  Tali's trial is all about politics, but the most important trials in history have always had political overtones to them, and many of them have not gotten the verdict right (Dred Scott, Plessy v Freguson).
I'm not ok with Tali being exiled, I just think that thematically without presenting the actual evidence it should be a much harder thing to avoid in the game.

If Tali is exiled, that means Shep didn't present a good case, so obviously the people agree with the decision.  My whole point is that after the charm speech, the people wouldn't think the same way.  I thought about looking at real world situations as comparisons, but its apples/oranges, its a completely different set up, and the trial itself isn't dealing with evidence.  landmark supreme court cases don't deal with the judges all knowing the defendent is innocent, and then finding them guilty anyway because they have something to gain.

The thing people are missing is that the trial isn't about evidence at all.  The admirality board has none, and exonerating her takes none.  All Shep has to do to save her from exile is kill the scapegoat metaphorically.  His speech does that.  The admirals could easily still find Tali guilty after the speech, but they don't because what's the point?

[NCLanceman]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Anything short of an exonerated Tali through speech is unnacceptable.

We are in agreement. Just saying that getting her exiled still establishes loyalty.

However, if Shepard is unable to acquit her by not having enough Charm / Intimidate or not saving Kal and Veetor, he probably didn't deserve her anyway.

[KnotEngaged]

Phil725 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
*snip*

Alright i drop a topic of discussion and stir up the hornets nest again  look good to see this thread was dying.   Sorry Jones I  am going to have to side with my friend  Knot on this one... that Speech is good and Shep fought the good fight for her but in the  end it just comes off a wishful thinking plus guess who looks like a hero and gets the throw Xen to wolves when that crazy ****'s plans back fires... thats right Tali... do you really think that  Tali would not get word from  Reager, Ra'an or  Veetor when the shooting starts  Oh one of the will send word and Shep and Tali will come a running with Legion to prevent the Second Morning Star War. The Exile returns a hero and Xen faces the firing squad or Airlock... 

How exactly is "you have no evidence, Tali has done more for you than anyone else, she is just an innocent scapegoat caught in your political agendas," wishful thinking?  You think anyone in the courtroom doesn't believe Shep?  The admirals are really just going to exile her out of spite, accomplish nothing and create a public backlash against them?

They have absolutely nothing to gain from exile after the charm/intimidate speeches, they lose their scapegoat, that's what people are missing here.  They knew all along that she was innocent, they were just using her.

It is wishful thinking because Shepard has no evidence either.  You can't combat questionable evidence with an emotional speech, you need evidence that refutes the questionable evidence.  She is not exiled out of spite, she is being used as a scapegoat for her father, a role that she willingly accepts when she learns the truth of his deeds.  If there is a public backlash against the admirals, how long do you really think it would last?  Admiralty is a lifetime appointment barring on of those executive emergency descisions, and Tali may be a hero, but she is hardly the most important member of the Fleet.

[Someone With Mass]

Ah. The topic about the right choices in the trial. How original.

[NCLanceman]

KnotEngaged wrote...


It is wishful thinking because Shepard has no evidence either.  You can't combat questionable evidence with an emotional speech, you need evidence that refutes the questionable evidence.  She is not exiled out of spite, she is being used as a scapegoat for her father, a role that she willingly accepts when she learns the truth of his deeds. 

Stopped right there.

Juries are swayed by refuting circumstancial evidence all the time on cases way stronger than this. If she's not exiled in spite, it's certainly in cold blood.

[Phil725]

KnotEngaged wrote...
*snip*

It is wishful thinking because Shepard has no evidence either.  You can't combat questionable evidence with an emotional speech, you need evidence that refutes the questionable evidence.  She is not exiled out of spite, she is being used as a scapegoat for her father, a role that she willingly accepts when she learns the truth of his deeds.  If there is a public backlash against the admirals, how long do you really think it would last?  Admiralty is a lifetime appointment barring on of those executive emergency descisions, and Tali may be a hero, but she is hardly the most important member of the Fleet.

The end of my last post addresses this, the admirals are perfectly in their right to exile Tali after the charm speech, I'm not arguing that.  All Shep did was kill their scapegoat, he didn't actually prove innocence.  Assuming that Korris was the swing vote, his thought process was probably something like this: "Damn, exiling her now won't accomplish what I wanted, I'll just acquit and not risk backlash, I have nothing to gain from exile."

And public backlash definitely hurts.  They aren't going to lose their seat, but all of the admirals are pulling their own direction.  You don't think becoming a social pariah to some is going to hurt Korris' efforts for peace?  Now were getting past nothing to gain, and getting into 'can only lose' territory for exile.

[Phil725]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ah. The topic about the right choices in the trial. How original.

This is the first time I've seen it actually, it must be a different time of day then I'm usually on recurring topic

[KnotEngaged]

Phil725 wrote...

KnotEngaged wrote...
*snip*

If Tali is exiled the crowd agrees with the decision of the Admirals (you can hear the people in the hallways of the ship saying this).  Tali doesn't deserve exile, we know this, but I'm playing Devil's Advocate here and trying to be objective.  As a judge my job is to judge the person on trial based on the evidence collected and presented, and a heartfelt speech, while nice, is not evidence.  I think it would have been more realistic and better served the story if that fact was kept in mind by the writers.  Tali's trial is all about politics, but the most important trials in history have always had political overtones to them, and many of them have not gotten the verdict right (Dred Scott, Plessy v Freguson).
I'm not ok with Tali being exiled, I just think that thematically without presenting the actual evidence it should be a much harder thing to avoid in the game.

If Tali is exiled, that means Shep didn't present a good case, so obviously the people agree with the decision.  My whole point is that after the charm speech, the people wouldn't think the same way.  I thought about looking at real world situations as comparisons, but its apples/oranges, its a completely different set up, and the trial itself isn't dealing with evidence.  landmark supreme court cases don't deal with the judges all knowing the defendent is innocent, and then finding them guilty anyway because they have something to gain.

The thing people are missing is that the trial isn't about evidence at all.  The admirality board has none, and exonerating her takes none.  All Shep has to do to save her from exile is kill the scapegoat metaphorically.  His speech does that.  The admirals could easily still find Tali guilty after the speech, but they don't because what's the point?

This is incorrect, the Admiralty has shipping records that prove that Tali was sending disabled geth parts back to the Fleet, specifically to her father for his research, this clearly links her to the incident on the Alaeri.  From a legal stand point you can't deny that she played a minor role in the events that transpired there.  It is guilt by association, she is the only one left alive and she was the one sending geth parts, parts that went active.  Sure she might not be the one most responsible, but she is the only one that played a role that is still alive.  One wouldn't assume that Rael, an Admiral, would purposfully activate geth on the Alaeri, so logical reasoning suggest that Tali sent a piece back that was not completely disabled.  Shepard must prove that it was not Tali's doing that caused the incident, and that carelessness on her part was not a factor.

[Someone With Mass]

Phil725 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ah. The topic about the right choices in the trial. How original.

This is the first time I've seen it actually, it must be a different time of day then I'm usually on recurring topic

Well it must happen sooner or later. I've just decided to not be a part of it since it usually ends with everyone going like this:

It's better if she's exiled, because they don't deserve her.

-Are you stupid? It's better if she can return to the fleet.

No, I think she belongs on the Normandy with Shepard.

And it goes on like that. For many pages until one side gives up.

I know better than to get in the middle of it.

[Phil725]

KnotEngaged wrote...
*snip*
This is incorrect, the Admiralty has shipping records that prove that Tali was sending disabled geth parts back to the Fleet, specifically to her father for his research, this clearly links her to the incident on the Alaeri.  From a legal stand point you can't deny that she played a minor role in the events that transpired there.  It is guilt by association, she is the only one left alive and she was the one sending geth parts, parts that went active.  Sure she might not be the one most responsible, but she is the only one that played a role that is still alive.  One wouldn't assume that Rael, an Admiral, would purposfully activate geth on the Alaeri, so logical reasoning suggest that Tali sent a piece back that was not completely disabled.  Shepard must prove that it was not Tali's doing that caused the incident, and that carelessness on her part was not a factor.

Good point, but that's kind of irrelevant really.  Upper left blue doesn't even try to prove that she's innocent.  The option to prove that she is innocent is lower right.  We're agreed that you can justify a guilty verdict if you really wanted to, I'm arguing that they didn't really want to.  They aren't complete monsters, just close.  They're willing to destroy an innocent young woman if it benefits them, but not for no reason.  The charm speech puts the admirals in a no win situation, and that's why they exonerate her.

[Savakka1]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ah. The topic about the right choices in the trial. How original.

This is the first time I've seen it actually, it must be a different time of day then I'm usually on recurring topic

Well it must happen sooner or later. I've just decided to not be a part of it since it usually ends with everyone going like this:

It's better if she's exiled, because they don't deserve her.

-Are you stupid? It's better if she can return to the fleet.

No, I think she belongs on the Normandy with Shepard.

And it goes on like that. For many pages until one side gives up.

I know better than to get in the middle of it.

I just stated my opinion and left it there. No more is required from me.

[Someone With Mass]

Savakka1 wrote...

I just stated my opinion and left it there. No more is required from me.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with stating your opinion on the current topic.

It's just that some people can take it almost a little too far.

And that usually never ends good.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:08 .

[KnotEngaged]

Phil725 wrote...

Good point, but that's kind of irrelevant really.  Upper left blue doesn't even try to prove that she's innocent.  The option to prove that she is innocent is lower right.  We're agreed that you can justify a guilty verdict if you really wanted to, I'm arguing that they didn't really want to.  They aren't complete monsters, just close.  They're willing to destroy an innocent young woman if it benefits them, but not for no reason.  The charm speech puts the admirals in a no win situation, and that's why they exonerate her.

That's the point though, the charm/intimidate options don't try to prove her innocence, that is why they aren't viable options for her aquittal.  The charm/intimidate options are just Shepard desperately trying to sway the Admirals with emotions and profanity.  It is not a no win situation, sure they look bad for a little while, having exiled a former hero, but it shows that no matter your status in the Fleet you pay for crimes you commit (unless your daughter takes the bullet for you).  Even after the speech, as an Admiral, I still think I did the right thing here, Tali did not prove her innocence in the Alaeri incident, and despite her captain's best attempts, there was not enough evidence to exonerate her.  It is just how the trial works.

[nitefyre410]

Phil725 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
*snip*

Alright i drop a topic of discussion and stir up the hornets nest again  look good to see this thread was dying.   Sorry Jones I  am going to have to side with my friend  Knot on this one... that Speech is good and Shep fought the good fight for her but in the  end it just comes off a wishful thinking plus guess who looks like a hero and gets the throw Xen to wolves when that crazy ****'s plans back fires... thats right Tali... do you really think that  Tali would not get word from  Reager, Ra'an or  Veetor when the shooting starts  Oh one of the will send word and Shep and Tali will come a running with Legion to prevent the Second Morning Star War. The Exile returns a hero and Xen faces the firing squad or Airlock... 

How exactly is "you have no evidence, Tali has done more for you than anyone else, she is just an innocent scapegoat caught in your political agendas," wishful thinking?  You think anyone in the courtroom doesn't believe Shep?  The admirals are really just going to exile her out of spite, accomplish nothing and create a public backlash against them?

They have absolutely nothing to gain from exile after the charm/intimidate speeches, they lose their scapegoat, that's what people are missing here.  They knew all along that she was innocent, they were just using her.

 


Oh that fact they  knew she was innocent along is not lost on me  at all ,  What  they REALLY wanted was her fathers research  on side wanted to bury it and the other side want to use it... that whole trail is a power play... thats what  Ra'an says and I quote  " I don't give a vocha' ass about the fleet."       To honest both options i like a lot  its  more the  fallout of each one that  is debatable... Think about this way we both  know that Xen  either finds out some of what  was happening really on the Alerai   Option 1 you  can get Tali  cleared but the long fallout is Xen finds that evidence  now has what she needs and Something to hold over Shepherds and Tali's head... Option 2. She leaves the fleet  which the evidence  Xen  still gets her hands on something but Its harder for her because  Qwib Qwib  scapegoat play  worked.  Re'al name is clean and the "Criminal" is on a  human ship somewhere in Traverse. Xen digging this back  makes her look... as crazy as she really is.  


This was never about Her personally it was about saving the last  17 million or so Quarians from extinction because one Admiral got  a case of the Cabin Fever and  caught a case of the crazies. 


  

[Savakka1]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Savakka1 wrote...

I just stated my opinion and left it there. No more is required from me.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with stating your opinion on the current topic.

It's just that some people can take it almost a little too far.

And that usually never ends good.

Well, It does happen sometimes...

[Tairis Deamhan]

Calinstel wrote...

Rakia_Time wrote...

 Hello people, i have a small surprize

When it's finished it will have a lot more Tali but for now that's it, criticism is appreciated so i can improve 

Damn, oh...Damn!
Really loved that, please finish

What he said.

[Lividity Jones]

KnotEngaged wrote...

That's the point though, the charm/intimidate options don't try to prove her innocence, that is why they aren't viable options for her aquittal.  The charm/intimidate options are just Shepard desperately trying to sway the Admirals with emotions and profanity.  It is not a no win situation, sure they look bad for a little while, having exiled a former hero, but it shows that no matter your status in the Fleet you pay for crimes you commit (unless your daughter takes the bullet for you).  Even after the speech, as an Admiral, I still think I did the right thing here, Tali did not prove her innocence in the Alaeri incident, and despite her captain's best attempts, there was not enough evidence to exonerate her.  It is just how the trial works.

I site the fact that they work, hence they are viable.

[Tairis Deamhan]

Lividity Jones wrote...

KnotEngaged wrote...

That's the point though, the charm/intimidate options don't try to prove her innocence, that is why they aren't viable options for her aquittal.  The charm/intimidate options are just Shepard desperately trying to sway the Admirals with emotions and profanity.  It is not a no win situation, sure they look bad for a little while, having exiled a former hero, but it shows that no matter your status in the Fleet you pay for crimes you commit (unless your daughter takes the bullet for you).  Even after the speech, as an Admiral, I still think I did the right thing here, Tali did not prove her innocence in the Alaeri incident, and despite her captain's best attempts, there was not enough evidence to exonerate her.  It is just how the trial works.

I site the fact that they work, hence they are viable.

You can also cite how the US justice system works, since this is clearly how we're basing the discussion, even though at no point is the Quarian legal system actually explained.

A jury can give a not guilty verdict because the prosecution did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no 'requirement' for a defender to bring some sort of proof that says 'THIS CLIENT IS NOT GUILTY!'. 

Modifié par Tairis Deamhan, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:18 .

[nitefyre410]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ah. The topic about the right choices in the trial. How original.

This is the first time I've seen it actually, it must be a different time of day then I'm usually on recurring topic

Well it must happen sooner or later. I've just decided to not be a part of it since it usually ends with everyone going like this:

It's better if she's exiled, because they don't deserve her.

-Are you stupid? It's better if she can return to the fleet.

No, I think she belongs on the Normandy with Shepard.

And it goes on like that. For many pages until one side gives up.

I know better than to get in the middle of it.

    


I don't know I am hearing some really good  points from the other side during this discussion I have to say so myself... I may not agree but they are very good points and well through  counter arguments plus the Thread was dead  for awhile so I stirred it back up. 

[Phil725]

KnotEngaged wrote...
*snip*

That's the point though, the charm/intimidate options don't try to prove her innocence, that is why they aren't viable options for her aquittal.  The charm/intimidate options are just Shepard desperately trying to sway the Admirals with emotions and profanity.  It is not a no win situation, sure they look bad for a little while, having exiled a former hero, but it shows that no matter your status in the Fleet you pay for crimes you commit (unless your daughter takes the bullet for you).  Even after the speech, as an Admiral, I still think I did the right thing here, Tali did not prove her innocence in the Alaeri incident, and despite her captain's best attempts, there was not enough evidence to exonerate her.  It is just how the trial works.

I still think your looking at this too much from a law point of view.  In Shep's mind he has a choice: betray her and prove she's innocent or let her be exiled.  If you have enough charm, a third option opens up, make it pointless to exile her.  This is a smart move on his part because its doing exactly what your saying it does.  Appeals to the emotions of the people around.  It isn't a desperate attempt either, its a very calculated move that takes away any prior use they had of their scapegoat.  If you're Korris, you were only in this for your gain anyway, you don't want to exile Tali for no reason.  If you think Tali should be exiled because she didn't prove her innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt, and by law she should be punished, then that's your point of view, but it ignores the human element completely.

As far as a flotilla lesson from the trial, I'm not buying that.  The admirals are in a desperate fighting for right now mentality.  They all need support for their plan.  Sacrificing popularity for a life lesson on the flotilla is out of the question.  They have complete martial control anyway, someone acts up, they kick them out onto the nearest planet.  Crime isn't going to be rampant on the flotilla.

[Mazder]

well considering that we need something plugged i'll step up to the plate...
mazder-1x5.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d2t8h2d
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand go!

Modifié par Mazder, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:21 .