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Lividity Jones wrote...
I site the fact that they work, hence they are viable.
Modifié par Someone With Mass, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:27 .
Tairis Deamhan wrote...
Lividity Jones wrote...
KnotEngaged wrote...
That's the point though, the charm/intimidate options don't try to prove her innocence, that is why they aren't viable options for her aquittal. The charm/intimidate options are just Shepard desperately trying to sway the Admirals with emotions and profanity. It is not a no win situation, sure they look bad for a little while, having exiled a former hero, but it shows that no matter your status in the Fleet you pay for crimes you commit (unless your daughter takes the bullet for you). Even after the speech, as an Admiral, I still think I did the right thing here, Tali did not prove her innocence in the Alaeri incident, and despite her captain's best attempts, there was not enough evidence to exonerate her. It is just how the trial works.
I site the fact that they work, hence they are viable.
You can also cite how the US justice system works, since this is clearly how we're basing the discussion, even though at no point is the Quarian legal system actually explained.
A jury can give a not guilty verdict because the prosecution did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no 'requirement' for a defender to bring some sort of proof that says 'THIS CLIENT IS NOT GUILTY!'.
nitefyre410 wrote...
*snip*
Oh that fact they knew she was innocent along is not lost on me at all , What they REALLY wanted was her fathers research on side wanted to bury it and the other side want to use it... that whole trail is a power play... thats what Ra'an says and I quote " I don't give a vocha' ass about the fleet." To honest both options i like a lot its more the fallout of each one that is debatable... Think about this way we both know that Xen either finds out some of what was happening really on the Alerai Option 1 you can get Tali cleared but the long fallout is Xen finds that evidence now has what she needs and Something to hold over Shepherds and Tali's head... Option 2. She leaves the fleet which the evidence Xen still gets her hands on something but Its harder for her because Qwib Qwib scapegoat play worked. Re'al name is clean and the "Criminal" is on a human ship somewhere in Traverse. Xen digging this back makes her look... as crazy as she really is.
This was never about Her personally it was about saving the last 17 million or so Quarians from extinction because one Admiral got a case of the Cabin Fever and caught a case of the crazies.
TTTX wrote...
the next chapter of Symbol of Shepard is up.
hope you're enjoy.
remember to comment.
nitefyre410 wrote...
true we really don't have a any really basis on how the Quarian legal system works... hmm maybe its more like Military Tribunal ?
Modifié par Someone With Mass, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .
and the trial we get to see is a shame.Someone With Mass wrote...
nitefyre410 wrote...
true we really don't have a any really basis on how the Quarian legal system works... hmm maybe its more like Military Tribunal ?
Tali says that it's less formal than a Earth trial, and Shala says that they're not playing with tricks and loopholes.
But that's not saying so much.
Modifié par TTTX, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .
Someone With Mass wrote...
Lividity Jones wrote...
I site the fact that they work, hence they are viable.
I agree.
Tali is not getting convicted, Xen gets the data one way or another, and Tali enjoys watching Shepard shout. And so do I for that matter.
Almost everyone's somewhat happy in the end.
Well, except for the suit wetter.
Skadhi1 wrote...
With regard to Tali's innocence:
"When the facts are against, you argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts. When the law and the facts are both against you, pound the table."
Whatever it takes to get an acquittal.
KnotEngaged wrote...
For quarians you must present the evidence of your innocence to the best of your ability. Shepard made a hell of a presentation, but he didn't have any evidence. Shepard proved that politics were a major point of the trial, something I think most every quarian present understood from the beginning, but that doesn't prove Tali's innocence in the matter.
nitefyre410 wrote...
yeah Xen does get the data one way or the other but one way leaves the Suit wetter away to fight Xen crazy ass and another leaves him completely de-clawed and gives Xen leverage and trust you do not want that crazy **** to have that kind of Political pull the Last thing Shepherd needs a Quarian with a grudge with any army of Geth matching through the Galaxy. nor does he need the largest fleet to be turned scrape with her plans back fire....
Modifié par Lividity Jones, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:34 .
KnotEngaged wrote...
For quarians you must present the evidence of your innocence to the best of your ability. Shepard made a hell of a presentation, but he didn't have any evidence. Shepard proved that politics were a major point of the trial, something I think most every quarian present understood from the beginning, but that doesn't prove Tali's innocence in the matter.
Skadhi1 wrote...
With regard to Tali's innocence:
"When the facts are against, you argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts. When the law and the facts are both against you, pound the table."
Whatever it takes to get an acquittal.
And I don't belive Xen is going to go with her plans if she doesn't have the support of the Fleet, no matter how mad she seems to be.Lividity Jones wrote...
nitefyre410 wrote...
yeah Xen does get the data one way or the other but one way leaves the Suit wetter away to fight Xen crazy ass and another leaves him completely de-clawed and gives Xen leverage and trust you do not want that crazy **** to have that kind of Political pull the Last thing Shepherd needs a Quarian with a grudge with any army of Geth matching through the Galaxy. nor does he need the largest fleet to be turned scrape with her plans back fire....
Xen needs time to implement Rael's research into her own.
Plenty of time for negotiations between the quarians and the geth to get underway.
Once peace is seen as a possibility, Xen will lose a whole lot of support.
Phil725 wrote...
nitefyre410 wrote...
*snip*
Oh that fact they knew she was innocent along is not lost on me at all , What they REALLY wanted was her fathers research on side wanted to bury it and the other side want to use it... that whole trail is a power play... thats what Ra'an says and I quote " I don't give a vocha' ass about the fleet." To honest both options i like a lot its more the fallout of each one that is debatable... Think about this way we both know that Xen either finds out some of what was happening really on the Alerai Option 1 you can get Tali cleared but the long fallout is Xen finds that evidence now has what she needs and Something to hold over Shepherds and Tali's head... Option 2. She leaves the fleet which the evidence Xen still gets her hands on something but Its harder for her because Qwib Qwib scapegoat play worked. Re'al name is clean and the "Criminal" is on a human ship somewhere in Traverse. Xen digging this back makes her look... as crazy as she really is.
This was never about Her personally it was about saving the last 17 million or so Quarians from extinction because one Admiral got a case of the Cabin Fever and caught a case of the crazies.
Which outcome is most harmful/beneficial is a completely different argument altogether. That's getting pretty far into metagaming for me to use that as support for exiling/exonerating her.
As far as the best result for the quarians, the options are: Xen only gets the data/Xen only gets the data and Korris gets some extra support, or the whole flotilla knows about the data.
The latter is obviously disastrous, so cross that out. Then it comes down to what do you find more valuable. The emotions of one of your closest friends, or a slightly reduced chance of Xen pulling off her plan. I don't see the extra support that Korris gains being enough to justify it personally.
Savakka1 wrote...
And I don't belive Xen is going to go with her plans if she doesn't have the support of the Fleet, no matter how mad she seems to be.Lividity Jones wrote...
nitefyre410 wrote...
yeah Xen does get the data one way or the other but one way leaves the Suit wetter away to fight Xen crazy ass and another leaves him completely de-clawed and gives Xen leverage and trust you do not want that crazy **** to have that kind of Political pull the Last thing Shepherd needs a Quarian with a grudge with any army of Geth matching through the Galaxy. nor does he need the largest fleet to be turned scrape with her plans back fire....
Xen needs time to implement Rael's research into her own.
Plenty of time for negotiations between the quarians and the geth to get underway.
Once peace is seen as a possibility, Xen will lose a whole lot of support.
nitefyre410 wrote...
Phil725 wrote...
*snip*
Which outcome is most harmful/beneficial is a completely different argument altogether. That's getting pretty far into metagaming for me to use that as support for exiling/exonerating her.
As far as the best result for the quarians, the options are: Xen only gets the data/Xen only gets the data and Korris gets some extra support, or the whole flotilla knows about the data.
The latter is obviously disastrous, so cross that out. Then it comes down to what do you find more valuable. The emotions of one of your closest friends, or a slightly reduced chance of Xen pulling off her plan. I don't see the extra support that Korris gains being enough to justify it personally.
So in the end it really comes down to choice about the good of one over the good many I don't know its a hard choice either way
Phil725 wrote...
You just kind of looped back to the beginning of the argument. We agree that if this was a question on a law test, the correct answer would be to exile her. Shep didn't prove that she was innocent, and finding her guilty of the charges is the logical conclusion.
In practice though, black and white goes out the window. You think Shala really meant present the evidence as best you can? Of course not, she meant say whatever it takes to exonerate Tali. Emotional appeal is 99% of this trial, ignoring that seems silly to me. A by the book judge would find her guilty, a person who looks at it emotionally will find her innocent.
Phil725 wrote...
You just kind of looped back to the beginning of the argument. We agree that if this was a question on a law test, the correct answer would be to exile her. Shep didn't prove that she was innocent, and finding her guilty of the charges is the logical conclusion.
Phil725 wrote...
I don't see it as that simple. I see it as a lot of good for one, versus an almost irrelevant amount of good for many. I just don't see Tali getting exiled affecting anything in the long run. People will still support peace, and people will still support Xen's crazy plan. Exiling Tali is hardly a panacea. If her being exiled guaranteed an end to Xen's scheme, that changes things, but I don't believe that to be true.
Lividity Jones wrote...
*snip*
Indeed. She wants what is best for the Flotilla.
I don't doubt that she will try and throw a wrench into things, but I do hope she can be convinced that peace is a better solution for her people.
Phil725 wrote...
Lividity Jones wrote...
*snip*
Indeed. She wants what is best for the Flotilla.
I don't doubt that she will try and throw a wrench into things, but I do hope she can be convinced that peace is a better solution for her people.
I fail to see how she wants what's best for the flotilla, maybe best in her mind, but creating an army of geth to rise to a galactic superpower is in no one's best interest. I expect her to be a main enemy in ME3 personally. She is the only person who would stand in the way of a peaceful resolution of the quarian/geth conflict.
Lividity Jones wrote...
nitefyre410 wrote...
yeah Xen does get the data one way or the other but one way leaves the Suit wetter away to fight Xen crazy ass and another leaves him completely de-clawed and gives Xen leverage and trust you do not want that crazy **** to have that kind of Political pull the Last thing Shepherd needs a Quarian with a grudge with any army of Geth matching through the Galaxy. nor does he need the largest fleet to be turned scrape with her plans back fire....
Xen needs time to implement Rael's research into her own.
Plenty of time for negotiations between the quarians and the geth to get underway.
Once peace is seen as a possibility, Xen will lose a whole lot of support.
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