258292 réponses à ce sujet

[Phil725]

Skadhi1 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
You just kind of looped back to the beginning of the argument.  We agree that if this was a question on a law test, the correct answer would be to exile her.  Shep didn't prove that she was innocent, and finding her guilty of the charges is the logical conclusion.

Depends.  If Quarians operate under a "guilty until proven innocent" paradigm and a "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of proof (U.S. and U.K. system), then Shepard need not prove her innocent.  Rather, he needs to create sufficient doubt about the evidence such that the admiralty board concludes that guilt has not been proved.  Seemingly, he did this, based on the character issue, i.e., Tali could not have done the crime because of her inate character qualities.

Practically speaking, it is impossible to prove innocence. 

I'm hesitant to connect a real world equivalent to the flotilla personally.  We don't know nearly enough about the flotilla, and I don't know about law

I see the trial as a lot more casual than courts for us.  The trial being more about exiling her being a bad idea/pointless, rather than justified or not.  He proved that pretty well.

*top*

Modifié par Phil725, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:47 .

[Someone With Mass]

Phil725 wrote...

I don't see it as that simple.  I see it as a lot of good for one, versus an almost irrelevant amount of good for many.  I just don't see Tali getting exiled affecting anything in the long run.  People will still support peace, and people will still support Xen's crazy plan.  Exiling Tali is hardly a panacea.  If her being exiled guaranteed an end to Xen's scheme, that changes things, but I don't believe that to be true.

It's like saying that choosing to get shot in the leg is a good thing, because five years from that moment, you can use it as an excuse to not join the jogging round. It's just stupid.

[Lividity Jones]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Jones  The Quarians have had  300 plus of the inbreed, taught  fear and hatred of the Geth ground into them do you really  think that Xen is not going to use that very fact to her advantage... Peace talks start and she plays the the Quarian version of the Race card.   oh she is going to play on that  fact very well... I hate to seem like a Cynic but .... 

Everyone already knows she's crazy.

Her ranting will only seem more obsessive and psychotic once peace is an option.

Quarian: Hey, everything's okay, we can go home.

Daro'Xen: No! Everything is bad! We can still enslave them and rule the galaxy! Muahahaha!!!

[Savakka1]

Phil725 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

*snip*

Indeed. She wants what is best for the Flotilla.

I don't doubt that she will try and throw a wrench into things, but I do hope she can be convinced that peace is a better solution for her people.

I fail to see how she wants what's best for the flotilla, maybe best in her mind, but creating an army of geth to rise to a galactic superpower is in no one's best interest. I expect her to be a main enemy in ME3 personally. She is the only person who would stand in the way of a peaceful resolution of the quarian/geth conflict.

Admiral Han'Gerrel: "She takes Fleet safety very seriously."

I don't belive she would endanger the Fleet, and we have to remember that until Legion, Geth seemed only to be killing machines who worshipped the Reapers and wanted to see the destruction of Organic life. Nobody knew anything from the "true Geth". Until Legion, her plan seemed to be the only way to take back Rannoch without major losses.

Ofcorce Legion and the "true Geth" complicate things.

Modifié par Savakka1, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:50 .

[Phil725]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

*snip*

Indeed. She wants what is best for the Flotilla.

I don't doubt that she will try and throw a wrench into things, but I do hope she can be convinced that peace is a better solution for her people.

I fail to see how she wants what's best for the flotilla, maybe best in her mind, but creating an army of geth to rise to a galactic superpower is in no one's best interest.  I expect her to be a main enemy in ME3 personally.  She is the only person who would stand in the way of a peaceful resolution of the quarian/geth conflict.

That line is taken directly from Han'Gerrel in regards to Xen.

That means there is more to her than what we've seen.

I'm inclined to believe my own observations over an unreliable narrator personally.  From what I've seen, Xen would rather have the flotilla destroyed in an attempt to become a galactic power rather than reclaim Rannoch and start over.  I don't see a friends words as too concrete.

[Someone With Mass]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Everyone already knows she's crazy.

Her ranting will only seem more obsessive and psychotic once peace is an option.

Quarian: Hey, everything's okay, we can go home.

Daro'Xen: No! Everything is bad! We can still enslave them and rule the galaxy! Muahahaha!!!

Maybe I should let her carry out her evil plan on one of my plythroughs of ME3, because that sounds like something I have to see.

[Lividity Jones]

Phil725 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

*snip*

Indeed. She wants what is best for the Flotilla.

I don't doubt that she will try and throw a wrench into things, but I do hope she can be convinced that peace is a better solution for her people.

I fail to see how she wants what's best for the flotilla, maybe best in her mind, but creating an army of geth to rise to a galactic superpower is in no one's best interest.  I expect her to be a main enemy in ME3 personally.  She is the only person who would stand in the way of a peaceful resolution of the quarian/geth conflict.

That line is taken directly from Han'Gerrel in regards to Xen.

That means there is more to her than what we've seen.

I'm inclined to believe my own observations over an unreliable narrator personally.  From what I've seen, Xen would rather have the flotilla destroyed in an attempt to become a galactic power rather than reclaim Rannoch and start over.  I don't see a friends words as too concrete.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree there.

Shala and Han seemed like the only reasonible and trustworthy people on the Admiralty.

Sure, Han might be for war, but only because it seems like the only option.

[Phil725]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

yeah Xen does get the data one way or the other  but  one way leaves the Suit wetter away to fight  Xen crazy ass and another  leaves him completely de-clawed and gives Xen  leverage and trust you do not want that crazy **** to have that kind of Political pull the Last thing Shepherd needs a  Quarian with a grudge with any army of Geth matching through the Galaxy. nor does he need the largest fleet to be turned scrape with her plans back fire.... 

Xen needs time to implement Rael's research into her own.

Plenty of time for negotiations between the quarians and the geth to get underway.

Once peace is seen as a possibility, Xen will lose a whole lot of support.

   

Jones  The Quarians have had  300 plus of the inbreed, taught  fear and hatred of the Geth ground into them do you really  think that Xen is not going to use that very fact to her advantage... Peace talks start and she plays the the Quarian version of the Race card.   oh she is going to play on that  fact very well... I hate to seem like a Cynic but .... 

The quarians haven't been dwelling on the hate though.  Korris himself shows us that there are some people who not only don't hate the geth, but think the quarians were the wrong ones.  I never got a feeling that there was a feeling of overwhelming hatred towards the geth, in fact, I see the opposite.  The quarians understand the geth more than anyone else in the galaxy.  They just want their homes back.  If that can be done peacefully, or by mass enslavement, I see the public going with peace. 

[nitefyre410]

Phil725 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
*snip*
Which outcome is most harmful/beneficial is a completely different argument altogether.  That's getting pretty far into metagaming for me to use that as support for exiling/exonerating her.

As far as the best result for the quarians, the options are:  Xen only gets the data/Xen only gets the data and Korris gets some extra support, or the whole flotilla knows about the data.

The latter is obviously disastrous, so cross that out.  Then it comes down to what do you find more valuable.  The emotions of one of your closest friends, or a slightly reduced chance of Xen pulling off her plan.  I don't see the extra support that Korris gains being enough to justify it personally.

   

 So in the end it really comes down to choice about the good of one over the good many   I don't know its a hard choice either way 

I don't see it as that simple.  I see it as a lot of good for one, versus an almost irrelevant amount of good for many.  I just don't see Tali getting exiled affecting anything in the long run.  People will still support peace, and people will still support Xen's crazy plan.  Exiling Tali is hardly a panacea.  If her being exiled guaranteed an end to Xen's scheme, that changes things, but I don't believe that to be true.

  


 Your right  exile is not  an end all be cure what it is a stall and wrench in her plans... it may not stop Xen but it will slow her down long enough to take her down with something more  direct manner.  What it does is that  it puts Xen of losing  the support of the people and in any war you needed to support of the people.   People would start asking  question of why she is bring up the Alarei where  the beloved Admiral Re'al was killed and his daughter was exiled up again  that puts the spot light Xen and her motivations. 


Oh make  no mistake Shepherd is going to get Tali back into the Fleet just gotta make sure there is a Fleet for her to go back too.  I  personal don't "Like" Exile but I can understand the reasoning, purpose behind it.  

[Phil725]

Savakka1 wrote...
*snip*
Admiral Han'Gerrel: "She takes Fleet safety very seriously."

I don't belive she would endanger the Fleet, and we have to remember that until Legion, Geth seemed only to be killing machines who worshipped the Reapers and wanted to see the destruction of Organic life. Nobody knew anything from the "true Geth". Until Legion, her plan seemed to be the only way to take back Rannoch without major losses.

Ofcorce Legion and the "true Geth" complicate things.

Gerrel is still an unreliable narrator, he's a friend of Xen's, and we can assume that he was at least a little involved with the plan on the Alerei, given Rael's insistance that Gerrel see it, and their friendship.

How is Xen's plan not endangering the fleet anyway?  The end result of her plan is the quarians being a galactic power with a race of servant drones.  Last I checked, that's how the Morning War started.  Its a textbook case of the cliche of those forgetting the past repeating the future.

[Phil725]

Lividity Jones wrote...
*snip*

Well, I'm going to have to disagree there.

Shala and Han seemed like the only reasonible and trustworthy people on the Admiralty.

Sure, Han might be for war, but only because it seems like the only option.

I don't care for Gerrel much personally, I think he gets an extra fair characterization because of his kindness to Tali.  His ideas are very bad, and its unknown how in favor, or involved he is in the whole rewriting plan.  He is better than Xen obviously in that he would likely be open to peace, but I wouldn't put him on Shala's level.

[Lividity Jones]

Phil725 wrote...

Gerrel is still an unreliable narrator, he's a friend of Xen's, and we can assume that he was at least a little involved with the plan on the Alerei, given Rael's insistance that Gerrel see it, and their friendship.

How is Xen's plan not endangering the fleet anyway?  The end result of her plan is the quarians being a galactic power with a race of servant drones.  Last I checked, that's how the Morning War started.  Its a textbook case of the cliche of those forgetting the past repeating the future.

In her eyes, yes, it is the best decision for her people.

I'm not saying I agree or that it's a sound plan, I'm just saying that I don't doubt her commitment.

[Someone With Mass]

Phil725 wrote...

Gerrel is still an unreliable narrator, he's a friend of Xen's, and we can assume that he was at least a little involved with the plan on the Alerei, given Rael's insistance that Gerrel see it, and their friendship.

How is Xen's plan not endangering the fleet anyway?  The end result of her plan is the quarians being a galactic power with a race of servant drones.  Last I checked, that's how the Morning War started.  Its a textbook case of the cliche of those forgetting the past repeating the future.

Well, if Cerberus can brainwash geth, then I think Xen can find a even better way to do it. I see your point, though. She's asking for trouble. 

[DreadvasNormandy]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

*snip*

Indeed. She wants what is best for the Flotilla.

I don't doubt that she will try and throw a wrench into things, but I do hope she can be convinced that peace is a better solution for her people.

I fail to see how she wants what's best for the flotilla, maybe best in her mind, but creating an army of geth to rise to a galactic superpower is in no one's best interest.  I expect her to be a main enemy in ME3 personally.  She is the only person who would stand in the way of a peaceful resolution of the quarian/geth conflict.

That line is taken directly from Han'Gerrel in regards to Xen.

That means there is more to her than what we've seen.

I'm inclined to believe my own observations over an unreliable narrator personally.  From what I've seen, Xen would rather have the flotilla destroyed in an attempt to become a galactic power rather than reclaim Rannoch and start over.  I don't see a friends words as too concrete.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree there.

Shala and Han seemed like the only reasonible and trustworthy people on the Admiralty.

Sure, Han might be for war, but only because it seems like the only option.

I'm digging the idea of a major teammate from ME1 or ME2 becoming a cruicial arch-enemy in ME3 based on your decisions in ME1 and ME2 (such as, if you side with the Shadow Broker in ME1 Liara becomes an arch-foe) and, yes, I would also support Tali being an enemy. I love her as a character but if she had an independant view to your own would you rather side with her or stick to your own and possibly forsake even bigger values than her opinion?

Oh well some could say nothing is more important than Tali, she is our world, but I always liked the whole Wrex thing in ME1 and it turns out great in ME2. So if you do side with Legion to preserve Geth I wouldn't be shocked if Tali decided, in the interest of the Migrant Fleet, she has to stop you.

After all isn't this why ME is so fun? Multiple reasons for replay value! Especially all the light-hearted moments. Quarians with tummy aches indeed

[nitefyre410]

Phil725 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

yeah Xen does get the data one way or the other  but  one way leaves the Suit wetter away to fight  Xen crazy ass and another  leaves him completely de-clawed and gives Xen  leverage and trust you do not want that crazy **** to have that kind of Political pull the Last thing Shepherd needs a  Quarian with a grudge with any army of Geth matching through the Galaxy. nor does he need the largest fleet to be turned scrape with her plans back fire.... 

Xen needs time to implement Rael's research into her own.

Plenty of time for negotiations between the quarians and the geth to get underway.

Once peace is seen as a possibility, Xen will lose a whole lot of support.

   

Jones  The Quarians have had  300 plus of the inbreed, taught  fear and hatred of the Geth ground into them do you really  think that Xen is not going to use that very fact to her advantage... Peace talks start and she plays the the Quarian version of the Race card.   oh she is going to play on that  fact very well... I hate to seem like a Cynic but .... 

The quarians haven't been dwelling on the hate though.  Korris himself shows us that there are some people who not only don't hate the geth, but think the quarians were the wrong ones.  I never got a feeling that there was a feeling of overwhelming hatred towards the geth, in fact, I see the opposite.  The quarians understand the geth more than anyone else in the galaxy.  They just want their homes back.  If that can be done peacefully, or by mass enslavement, I see the public going with peace. 

   

Koris is called a Geth sympathizer for a reason he is in the minority  his only Hold on stopping a war is that Military  knows  they have no real  edge on  Geth so it would be suicide  so they side with him not out of love of the Geth but self preservation... Give them a Weapon to use and   Koris would be the next out of the  Fleet for his point of view... Best believe that... the only stopping an all out push for the home is lack a tactical advantage  against the Geth and Koris is trying to milk that for all its worth...

[Savakka1]

Phil725 wrote...
Gerrel is still an unreliable narrator, he's a friend of Xen's, and we can assume that he was at least a little involved with the plan on the Alerei, given Rael's insistance that Gerrel see it, and their friendship.

How is Xen's plan not endangering the fleet anyway?  The end result of her plan is the quarians being a galactic power with a race of servant drones.  Last I checked, that's how the Morning War started.  Its a textbook case of the cliche of those forgetting the past repeating the future.

You do make a good point. Xen's plan is the "last resort" plan for me in ME3. If peace where Quarians reclaim Rannoch is not possible, and victory through war is impossible, I have to go with her plan. I'm fanatical about seeing Quarians returned to their homeworld.

[Phil725]

nitefyre410 wrote...
*snip*

 Your right  exile is not  an end all be cure what it is a stall and wrench in her plans... it may not stop Xen but it will slow her down long enough to take her down with something more  direct manner.  What it does is that  it puts Xen of losing  the support of the people and in any war you needed to support of the people.   People would start asking  question of why she is bring up the Alarei where  the beloved Admiral Re'al was killed and his daughter was exiled up again  that puts the spot light Xen and her motivations. 


Oh make  no mistake Shepherd is going to get Tali back into the Fleet just gotta make sure there is a Fleet for her to go back too.  I  personal don't "Like" Exile but I can understand the reasoning, purpose behind it.  

I'm just questioning how much Tali being exiled helps.  On one hand, an admiral is killed under murkey circumstances, believed to be dealing with hacking attempts.  On the other, its the same thing, yet now we know one of the other people responsible.  Both sides are a sad shock enough to throw a wrench in Xen's plan.  How exactly does Tali being exiled help that much?  The trial sort of accomplished its purpose of bringing attention to the experiments, Tali exiled on top of that seems unnecessary to me.

[Phil725]

nitefyre410 wrote...
*snip*

Koris is called a Geth sympathizer for a reason he is in the minority  his only Hold on stopping a war is that Military  knows  they have no real  edge on  Geth so it would be suicide  so they side with him not out of love of the Geth but self preservation... Give them a Weapon to use and   Koris would be the next out of the  Fleet for his point of view... Best believe that... the only stopping an all out push for the home is lack a tactical advantage  against the Geth and Koris is trying to milk that for all its worth...

The source of the quote is important in this matter.  Gerrel is the direct opposition of Korris.  Obviously he will dislike him/his views.  That doesn't mean that Korris is without support, on the contrary, all admirals probably have a significant amount of support.

I agree that the fleet would jump at any reclamation opportunity, but that's what ME3 is for.  Shep is bringing peace before Xen's plan becomes viable, and Tali is completely irrelevant to that outcome both ways (which was the initial point to this conversation I think )   If she's exiled, Xen still has her support, and if she gets her solution first, brainwashing it is.  If she doesn't get exiled, Xen still has support and its the same result.

[TTTX]

Savakka1 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
Gerrel is still an unreliable narrator, he's a friend of Xen's, and we can assume that he was at least a little involved with the plan on the Alerei, given Rael's insistance that Gerrel see it, and their friendship.

How is Xen's plan not endangering the fleet anyway?  The end result of her plan is the quarians being a galactic power with a race of servant drones.  Last I checked, that's how the Morning War started.  Its a textbook case of the cliche of those forgetting the past repeating the future.

You do make a good point. Xen's plan is the "last resort" plan for me in ME3. If peace where Quarians reclaim Rannoch is not possible, and victory through war is impossible, I have to go with her plan. I'm fanatical about seeing Quarians returned to their homeworld.

if you have Legion as a team mate chances for peace are big, if you sell him to Cerberus chances for peace are slim at best.

that's how I see it. 

[Someone With Mass]

Phil725 wrote...

I'm just questioning how much Tali being exiled helps.  On one hand, an admiral is killed under murkey circumstances, believed to be dealing with hacking attempts.  On the other, its the same thing, yet now we know one of the other people responsible.  Both sides are a sad shock enough to throw a wrench in Xen's plan.  How exactly does Tali being exiled help that much?  The trial sort of accomplished its purpose of bringing attention to the experiments, Tali exiled on top of that seems unnecessary to me.

Maybe it's BW's way to determine if you can get the support of the Migrant Fleet in the war against the Reapers or not based on what happens in the trial.

Who knows with their writers. They might be thinking of something that goes deeper than that.

[Phil725]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Gerrel is still an unreliable narrator, he's a friend of Xen's, and we can assume that he was at least a little involved with the plan on the Alerei, given Rael's insistance that Gerrel see it, and their friendship.

How is Xen's plan not endangering the fleet anyway?  The end result of her plan is the quarians being a galactic power with a race of servant drones.  Last I checked, that's how the Morning War started.  Its a textbook case of the cliche of those forgetting the past repeating the future.

Well, if Cerberus can brainwash geth, then I think Xen can find a even better way to do it. I see your point, though. She's asking for trouble. 

I actually could see Xen's plan being viable for the immediate future, which is actually important with the reapers coming, its just a horrible long term choice that can only end in disaster.

[Thelacan]

Evening Tali-thread. I have survived the metal madness.

What have I missed? Apparently not the Reckoning... WHY LIV&RIP, Why?!

[Phil725]

TTTX wrote...
*snip*

if you have Legion as a team mate chances for peace are big, if you sell him to Cerberus chances for peace are slim at best.

that's how I see it. 

Is this without metagaming?  Because I don't see any choices from ME2 mattering at all towards the plot in ME3.  If you sold Legion to Cerberus, I see something like Cerberus giving him back to you functional to aid you against the reapers.  Or another deus ex machina like that

[Lividity Jones]

Thelacan wrote...

Evening Tali-thread. I have survived the metal madness.
What have I missed? Apparently not the Reckoning... WHY LIV&RIP, Why?!

Things are a little hectic for Rip at the moment, but he has assured me that the edits will be complete tonight.

[Homebound]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Gerrel is still an unreliable narrator, he's a friend of Xen's, and we can assume that he was at least a little involved with the plan on the Alerei, given Rael's insistance that Gerrel see it, and their friendship.

How is Xen's plan not endangering the fleet anyway?  The end result of her plan is the quarians being a galactic power with a race of servant drones.  Last I checked, that's how the Morning War started.  Its a textbook case of the cliche of those forgetting the past repeating the future.

Well, if Cerberus can brainwash geth, then I think Xen can find a even better way to do it. I see your point, though. She's asking for trouble. 

Xen's just ASKING to be circled and An*lly violated by geth drilldos.