258292 réponses à ce sujet

[Calculatrice]

Bonjour. TZO is slow, how are things here?

[Someone With Mass]

Collider wrote...

The Quarians are incredibly poor. The Flotilla is barely holding together as it is. They can't take over "everything" - much less from races that had been dominating the galaxy for thousands of years. It just does not happen. 17 million Quarians taking everything from trillions of aliens? Doesn't compute.

Right. That's why I'll let the Reapers do the job for them, reducing their numbers from trillions to millions.

And I don't mind sharing certain technology with the quarians, and helping them prepare.

We will drink the Council's milkshake. With two straws.

[Skadhi1]

Collider wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...
If that's the case, then yeah, they need to be disposed.

You can't create a functioning government without enforcing it.

This hands-off, status quo, no making waves thing is bull**** and has only been a hinderance.

Disposed? I don't think so. The rules need to be amended, that's certain. But having a coup is the last thing the galaxy needs. Everything needs to be gradual.

Maybe not.  The Reapers seem to use the formula of decapitating the existing government, then conquering the pieces.  Sounds like a plan.

And if Quarian technology disrupted communications...

[Azint]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

The quarians are of no use to the Council.

Because of that, they don't give a damn.

Come on, this is politics 101.

Even simple-minded citizens, i.e a majority of the population, will see that a government would be exploiting or waving away a major foreign group. Even if the Council doesn't care, they couldn't just ignore something so apparent without people questioning their judgement. Any sort of second-guessing by a controlled population is already a sign that they are losing that control over their own people.

Modifié par Azint, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:18 .

[NuclearBuddha]

Someone With Mass wrote...
And I don't mind sharing certain technology with the quarians, and helping them prepare.

We will drink the Council's milkshake. With two straws.

Bizarrely, I d'aawwwwed at this.

[Kira Shepard]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Collider wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
Not malicious, just lazy.  I think that by the time the quarians went begging to the Council they'd already lost their homeworld.  The Council probably figured "why get into a horrific and costly war over some small-time race?"  They kick out the quarians, tell everyone to stay out of the Veil, give themselves a pat on the back and go back to making sure everything stays quiet.

That's actually a great point. They wouldn't want to start a war over a small time race, yes.

Not to mention that the war was already lost at that point.  The quarians didn't go begging until Rannoch was overrun, according to the wikia.

That's how most governments are anyway. so long as it doesn't upset the established status quo they don't give a damn. they are complacent and therefore useless. in ME3 given the option I WILL remove them from power without hesitation.

[Hicrodonma]

I support a coup but I don't really think now is the time for it. Hell the reapers are bearing down on us we can't afford any infighting at this point. It's a sad sad truth but that's what it is truth. After the fact while everyone is picking up the pieces from a hellish war the likes of which has never been seen... THAT'S the perfect moment for a coup.

[Collider]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Blze001 wrote...

I definitely wouldn't put it past the Council to put their own superiority over another species.

Quarians were definitely the most technologically advanced race before the Morning Wars, they let them almost get exterminated and still wont work with them.

Asari were. Probably. Unless someone would like to prove otherwise.

Well, the quarians built the largest spacestation the size of the width of the presidium 300 years ago. That has to count for something.

The Egyptians have their pyramids, but they are not a large player in the world. Quarian territory was probably largely neglible. They only had a few places where they could live. The Krogan were a threat to the Council and the Citadel races because they could adapt on many, many planets. Conversely, the Quarians probably weren't a threat to the Council because they can't adapt on many planets.

[Phil725]

[quote]Collider wrote...
*snip*
More like if they get Rannoch back. I think there are several scenarios in ME2 that would not lead to getting Rannoch back. Most certainly, if Legion was not recruited, it's very doubtful that there will be Geth-Quarian peace, because you lose the only olive branch the Geth have ever bothered to give, and probably will ever bother to give.

If you don't do Legion's loyalty mission (which would also happen if you don't recruit Legion of course), then it's possible that the Heretic virus will infect all of the geth, making that 5% instead 100%. Quarians are definitely dead then in a conventional war.

It's also possible that the fate of Rannoch may be tied to how you dealt with the Heretics. I just hope that destroying them won't bite me in the ass.

If legion died, then you also lose the olive branch that he was.

I consider Tali as a lesser piece to the puzzle. She's Shepard's connection to the Quarians, but I find Legion far more vital. If Tali does matter in this ordeal...it's more likely that she can influence what happens if she's exonerated. If she's exiled, it's less likely. Because everyone thinks that she had brought geth to the Alarei - basically a traitor. No one is going to listen to her then.

Revealing the evidence breaks up the Quarian fleet. I don't know what would result from that.[/quote]

There are two ways to think about this, logically, and factoring in that its a game.  For the its a game side, I just go back to the belief that nothing we do in ME2 will matter towards the plot in ME3.  If you sold Legion?  You magically get him back somehow and you pick up where you left off.  If he died, the geth send you a message that replaces his function.  Bioware has stated that they want all games to stand alone, and that can't happen when you can't do everything in one game if you played another a certain way.  One way or another, everything will come together so that its possible to get peace.  Kind of like how regardless of whether Wrex is alive or not, you're allowed to go into Tuchanka and do what you need to do.

Now thinking about it logically is different.  I wouldn't be so quick to say that Legion is the only chance.  What he signifies is that the geth are finally open to branching out and discussing affairs with organics.  Who's to say they wouldn't just try and contact Shep in another way without him? 

I don't see Tali mattering much to the whole process honestly, its up to the geth to agree to peace, and then for the quarians to take that offer or leave it, and I see both happening regardless of where Tali is.

The heretic virus is more of a concern to me.  My hope there would be that its still a little farther away from being done than Legion's version, which means that it would take them a while longer, longer enough to do something in ME3 about it.

I'm aware that there are circumstances that could lead to the quarians not getting Rannoch back in a realistic scenario, but from a player perspective, I would bet a lot of money on it happening in ME3.

[quote]From what I recall, the quarians didn't take the correct steps in colonizing, and the council had a right to give the planet to someone else.  That didn't mean they needed to use the opportunity to kick and threaten them again just to assert dominance or something.
[/quote]
What would you suggest they do instead?

[/quote]

The fact that they were settling on a crappy planet just shows how limited their options are.  If I was them, I would hold out on the flotilla for as long as I could, while looking for eventual options.  I fully believe that Rannoch will open up, and if it didn't, they would have to settle for some crappy planet until they could get it back.

[nitefyre410]

Collider wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Collider wrote...

The Quarians need to establish themselves as a power in the galaxy before they should, if ever, be on the Council. They need a planet to settle on. The Salarians, Turians, and Asari have had millenias to cultivate their empires. The Quarians only have ships.

After the war, I bet the council races are weakened. Then the quarians can just swoop in and take over everything.

The Quarians are incredibly poor. The Flotilla is barely holding together as it is. They can't take over "everything" - much less from races that had been dominating the galaxy for thousands of years. It just does not happen. 17 million Quarians taking everything from trillions of aliens? Doesn't compute.

    


 Most people seem to forget that Flotilla is in worst sharp than that   Colonial  Fleet from BSG.  Most of the  50000 ships are hundreds of years old housing   civilians and supplies.   The biggest Ships are the live ships that produce food.    The Turains have  36  Dreadnoughts, the Asari have  26, the Salarians 16 and Alliances  8....  Between the Turains   sheer might and the Alliances  superior tactics what are the Quarians going to take? 

[NuclearBuddha]

Azint wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
The quarians are of no use to the Council.

Because of that, they don't give a damn.

Come on, this is politics 101.

Even simple-minded citizens, i.e a majority of the population, will see that a government would be exploiting or waving away a major foreign group. Even if the Council doesn't care, they couldn't just ignore something so apparent without people questioning their judgement. Any sort of second-guessing by a controlled population is already a sign that they are losing that control over their own people.

While you have a good point, the Council isn't exactly elected by the governed, so...

Anyway, in terms of exploiting other races, I think that's the purview of the member races anyway.  The Council is just there to make sure nothing big brews up.

[Calculatrice]

Hicrodonma wrote...

I support a coup but I don't really think now is the time for it. Hell the reapers are bearing down on us we can't afford any infighting at this point. It's a sad sad truth but that's what it is truth. After the fact while everyone is picking up the pieces from a hellish war the likes of which has never been seen... THAT'S the perfect moment for a coup.

Yes, maybe after the reaper threat has passed, a coup would be in the question. But for the time being, political aggression would be more effective and less disruptive to the populace, creating less civil unrest and not leaving them weak to the reapers.

[Collider]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Collider wrote...

The Quarians are incredibly poor. The Flotilla is barely holding together as it is. They can't take over "everything" - much less from races that had been dominating the galaxy for thousands of years. It just does not happen. 17 million Quarians taking everything from trillions of aliens? Doesn't compute.

Right. That's why I'll let the Reapers do the job for them, reducing their numbers from trillions to millions.

Yea, I don't buy that. The Quarians are pretty weak compared to the other races. Their fleet will help, but the Council races will be more integral to the war.

[Someone With Mass]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Bizarrely, I d'aawwwwed at this.

Now when I think of it...yeah, that's kind of cute, if it's Shep and Tali doing the drinking.

[NuclearBuddha]

Kira Shepard wrote...
That's how most governments are anyway. so long as it doesn't upset the established status quo they don't give a damn. they are complacent and therefore useless. in ME3 given the option I WILL remove them from power without hesitation.

And then you will be stuck with the task of preserving the status quo.  Funny how that works, right?

[huntrrz]

Collider wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

I suspect that the Quarians were too prominent for the Council's liking, and when the opportunity arose to completely disenfranchise them they eagerly took it.

I don't think there is evidence of the Council disliking Quarians before the Morning War. I doubt the Quarians were in much of a place to threaten the Council given their immune systems. They can't exactly be expansive when they die being on most worlds that other races can live on fine. They probably stuck to their little slice of the galaxy, and stayed there.

I didn't say the Council disliked them.  I suspect they saw them as rivals for power, a prominent race on the verge of pushing for a seat on the Council.

Evidence for 'prominence':
They had an embassy on the Citadel.  They were technological geniuses.  They had mapped more relays than anyone else.

Counter-argument:
They don't "die being on most worlds that other races can live on fine", they actually adapt to new environments which might even make them more of a 'threat' for widespread expansion.

To "probably stuck to their little slice of the galaxy" I again offer "They had mapped more relays than anyone else".  To be fair, we don't know how much of that took place before or after the Exile, but my gut says their reputation as explorers is long-established.  They've 'only' been exiled for 3 centuries, and the Council races have long perspectives, and no note is made of this 'recent change' in their behavior.


My speculation is guided by my interpretation of the Council as the ultimate poltical gamesters.  They have a well-established pattern of acting out of expedience and consolidating power to themselves.  (I could argue at length about Council politics, but that's a bit off topic.)

[Calculatrice]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Kira Shepard wrote...
That's how most governments are anyway. so long as it doesn't upset the established status quo they don't give a damn. they are complacent and therefore useless. in ME3 given the option I WILL remove them from power without hesitation.

And then you will be stuck with the task of preserving the status quo.  Funny how that works, right?

Yeah, exactly who would run things then. Shepard? Shepard can't run the show, there would be too much opposition from his enemies to actually get anywhere. It's like the position Obama is in now, he wants to do things but the Republican party as a whole pretty much opposes him at every possible opportunity.

[Phil725]

Azint wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

The quarians are of no use to the Council.

Because of that, they don't give a damn.

Come on, this is politics 101.

Even simple-minded citizens, i.e a majority of the population, will see that a government would be exploiting or waving away a major foreign group. Even if the Council doesn't care, they couldn't just ignore something so apparent without people questioning their judgement. Any sort of second-guessing by a controlled population is already a sign that they are losing that control over their own people.

Even if that group of people is outcast who the rest of the galaxy looks down on?  I see a much larger uproar over using resources to actually help the quarians.  The people seem to be just fine with the quarians being a downtrodden race stuck in the far reaches of the galaxy.

[Lividity Jones]

Collider wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...
If that's the case, then yeah, they need to be disposed.

You can't create a functioning government without enforcing it.

This hands-off, status quo, no making waves thing is bull**** and has only been a hinderance.

Disposed? I don't think so. The rules need to be amended, that's certain. But having a coup is the last thing the galaxy needs. Everything needs to be gradual.

How exactly do you plan on amending rules and policies that have been in place for centuries?

[Azint]

A government is there to govern a population, even if there is a body of people out of their own jurisdiction, they must still take measures to regulate some sort of interaction with them, that would be terms for a foreign policy. The quarians may no longer be part of the Council, but they are still in reach of the Council's control, evidently so due to how many there are in Council Space. They aren't cast out and ignored for being of no use, they are sideleined because the Council already has so much to worry about already.

[Calculatrice]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Calculatrice wrote...
It's like the position Obama is in now, he wants to do things but the Republican party as a whole pretty much opposes him at every possible opportunity.

I see what you did there. Don't bring our politics into this please

Sorry, just thought it was a good comparison.

[NCLanceman]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

And then you will be stuck with the task of preserving the status quo.  Funny how that works, right?

Meet the new boss! Same as the old boss!

[Azint]

Phil725 wrote...

Even if that group of people is outcast who the rest of the galaxy looks down on?  I see a much larger uproar over using resources to actually help the quarians.  The people seem to be just fine with the quarians being a downtrodden race stuck in the far reaches of the galaxy.

I really, really hate analogical arguements, but I will use one for this.

Think about Africa, think about how any major power looks upon Africa today. The quarians are not so different from that. Something so noticable, yet consistently downplayed during foreing affairs and media. They are not actually ignored, but the idea is to have people think about something else rather than the downtrodden.

[Skadhi1]

Azint wrote...

I really, really hate analogical arguements, but I will use one for this.

Think about Africa, think about how any major power looks upon Africa today. The quarians are not so different from that. Something so noticable, yet consistently downplayed during foreing affairs and media. They are not actually ignored, but the idea is to have people think about something else rather than the downtrodden.

No, Africa is not being ignored.  China is in there big time, going after resources.  And the U.S. has established Africa Command to deal with various strategic initiatives.

Africa's problem is that too much of the cash goes to the rulers.  Look at Nigeria.

Fortunately, the Quarians don't seem to have those problems.