120 réponses à ce sujet

[gkillerrin]

Xaijin wrote...

You assume she's going to detect it  prior to/during activation with your magic auto logic... You also assume the program isn't a two part TSR which requires the relay to run embedded code in the first place.

And that the collectors aren't simply going to blow up the crew trying to get in without the virus = ie dead crew. As opposed to the method that leaves the crew alive and intact. The normandy is pretty ****ed up after the suicide mission = dead crew.

thats right Assuming
I think were starting to reach concensus

but still She was able to find the signal being transmitted, surely she would have found it being transmitted while orbiting the citadel, because they would need to run it to find out they were in citadel space, Am I not right?

[Rocket Weazle]

When Sheperd said "You've thought of everything" I knew some lazy plotting was afoot

[Xaijin]

gkillerrin wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

You assume she's going to detect it  prior to/during activation with your magic auto logic... You also assume the program isn't a two part TSR which requires the relay to run embedded code in the first place.

And that the collectors aren't simply going to blow up the crew trying to get in without the virus = ie dead crew. As opposed to the method that leaves the crew alive and intact. The normandy is pretty ****ed up after the suicide mission = dead crew.

thats right Assuming
I think were starting to reach concensus

but still She was able to find the signal being transmitted, surely she would have found it being transmitted while orbiting the citadel, because they would need to run it to find out they were in citadel space, Am I not right?

If it requires relay activation. NO.

[hk47d]

I'd imagine they were leaving to go do "whatever the next mission the player wanted to do" and then the collectors attacked the Normandy, or of course, space pizza.

[jklinders]

shep82 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Was no one paying attention to what EDI says after you destroy the derelect Reaper? She could not anticipate how Reaper techology would react when installed into the Normandy's systems. So as a precautionary move all essential personel were evacuated from the ship. Not sure how people claim this to be a plot hole as it should be common sense.

Agreed but there is the problem. Common sense no longer exists in the common world.

Actually common sense would have been to install the IFF near the citedal or some major Alliance facility like Arcturus station so that if something went wrong there would be help nearby. Nope, can't do that now can we, it has to be in interstellar space lightyears from nowhere just after finishing legions quest in my case. I would think that being able to produce a collector ship right near the Citedal would be a useful piece of evidence fo rthe council.

If common sense REALLY needs to be brought into this debate a far more controlled environment than the Normandy's computers would be ideal. What we have instead is lazy writing.

[Nizzemancer]

soren145 wrote...

I love that every single person immediately saw that scene as Shep's whole team leaves and thought 'WTF?'
I'm sure Bioware might release some small DLC to fill that massive plot hole.

If I was going to install that reaper IFF on my ship I would have waited to do the installation of it until I was close to secure space, like say...citadel station?

Did the writers go:
"Hey look it's a reaper IFF! The reapers surely won't find me if I put this in my ship!...Oh wait, an IFF is a transponder so yeah, I'll be broadcasting my position...bah, nobody will find me next to this dead derelict reaper anyway" and really expected nobody would notice?

Hanging around the dead reaper/being out in frickin nowhere is just begging for trouble.

This whole part is completely retarded

[DarthRevan4life]

jklinders wrote...

shep82 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Was no one paying attention to what EDI says after you destroy the derelect Reaper? She could not anticipate how Reaper techology would react when installed into the Normandy's systems. So as a precautionary move all essential personel were evacuated from the ship. Not sure how people claim this to be a plot hole as it should be common sense.

Agreed but there is the problem. Common sense no longer exists in the common world.

Actually common sense would have been to install the IFF near the citedal or some major Alliance facility like Arcturus station so that if something went wrong there would be help nearby. Nope, can't do that now can we, it has to be in interstellar space lightyears from nowhere just after finishing legions quest in my case. I would think that being able to produce a collector ship right near the Citedal would be a useful piece of evidence fo rthe council.

If common sense REALLY needs to be brought into this debate a far more controlled environment than the Normandy's computers would be ideal. What we have instead is lazy writing.

Actually logically that makes zero sense.  Not because you wouldn't want to take precautions but because the fact you had no way to know what would happen.  My point is why would you endanger say the Citadel, any Alliance/Council ship(s) when you can take the same risk but only putting one ship in danger?  Installing the Reaper IFF near any strategic outpost/fleet is extremely bad tactics.  Do what you can while minimalizing all potential risks and that's what they did when EDI only left non-essential personel on board the Normandy while the squad left to mimimize further risks. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

Normandy ran out of coffee, so Shepard had to pick some up and took the whole crew.

Seriously EDI should have tested it somewhere else.

[Sajuro]

jklinders wrote...

shep82 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Was no one paying attention to what EDI says after you destroy the derelect Reaper? She could not anticipate how Reaper techology would react when installed into the Normandy's systems. So as a precautionary move all essential personel were evacuated from the ship. Not sure how people claim this to be a plot hole as it should be common sense.

Agreed but there is the problem. Common sense no longer exists in the common world.

Actually common sense would have been to install the IFF near the citedal or some major Alliance facility like Arcturus station so that if something went wrong there would be help nearby. Nope, can't do that now can we, it has to be in interstellar space lightyears from nowhere just after finishing legions quest in my case. I would think that being able to produce a collector ship right near the Citedal would be a useful piece of evidence fo rthe council.

If common sense REALLY needs to be brought into this debate a far more controlled environment than the Normandy's computers would be ideal. What we have instead is lazy writing.

Yes, turn on the IFF of a reaper near the citadel or alliance base. If they did that then the collectors very well could have unleashed their swarms on either the alliance base or the citadel, taking every human there and probably killing anyone else. The way they did it only the normandy was at risk in case the Reaper IFF was yet another trap which it was.

Being able to produce a collector ship near the citadel would not be a good idea since their main cannon ripped through the shields of one of the most advanced warships of its time. Cruisers might have been able to destroy it with thalanx cannons but not before it wiped out several lesser ships/ attacked the citadel. Bringing it to an alliance base would be even worse since the base wouldn't have been on full alert what it would take for them to successfully repel a collector attack and that would have filled many more pods.

[Sturmwulfe]

I think this mission would have been a lot more awesome if you got to play a mini-mission with all your squad members present in the area, just divided into squads, kind of as a prep thing for the suicide mission but with everyone actually in game play at once. Even if it would be completely over-kill, it would have been helluva amusing and fun.

[Nizzemancer]

Sajuro wrote...

jklinders wrote...

shep82 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Was no one paying attention to what EDI says after you destroy the derelect Reaper? She could not anticipate how Reaper techology would react when installed into the Normandy's systems. So as a precautionary move all essential personel were evacuated from the ship. Not sure how people claim this to be a plot hole as it should be common sense.

Agreed but there is the problem. Common sense no longer exists in the common world.

Actually common sense would have been to install the IFF near the citedal or some major Alliance facility like Arcturus station so that if something went wrong there would be help nearby. Nope, can't do that now can we, it has to be in interstellar space lightyears from nowhere just after finishing legions quest in my case. I would think that being able to produce a collector ship right near the Citedal would be a useful piece of evidence fo rthe council.

If common sense REALLY needs to be brought into this debate a far more controlled environment than the Normandy's computers would be ideal. What we have instead is lazy writing.

Yes, turn on the IFF of a reaper near the citadel or alliance base. If they did that then the collectors very well could have unleashed their swarms on either the alliance base or the citadel, taking every human there and probably killing anyone else. The way they did it only the normandy was at risk in case the Reaper IFF was yet another trap which it was.

Being able to produce a collector ship near the citadel would not be a good idea since their main cannon ripped through the shields of one of the most advanced warships of its time. Cruisers might have been able to destroy it with thalanx cannons but not before it wiped out several lesser ships/ attacked the citadel. Bringing it to an alliance base would be even worse since the base wouldn't have been on full alert what it would take for them to successfully repel a collector attack and that would have filled many more pods.

unlike collector vessels the citadel fleets ships are sealed, pressurized and compartionalized, sending swarms of insects wouldn't have helped them in a standup fight. There's a reason they are being very covert and avoiding all out engagements, and since ME1 the citadel is the most fortified place in the galaxy. The collector cruiser has one forward facing main gun, basicly all they have to do is flank it and fly circles around it while engaging it, or send in their fighters.

And while they don't know exactly what could happen they know that it's an IFF and as such a transponder constantly sending signals and broadcasting it's location, you don't have to be a genious to see the obvious trap, if the collectors really wanted to stop shepard they could have just:
1. blown up the ship while it was defenseless
2. blown up the dead reaper and the IFF so Shep couldn't go through the relay
3. board the ship and disable it with explosives to the engines or ezoo core.

Face it: the plothole is stupid.

[Internet Kraken]

Sajuro wrote...

jklinders wrote...

shep82 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...



Was no one paying attention to what EDI says after you destroy the derelect Reaper? She could not anticipate how Reaper techology would react when installed into the Normandy's systems. So as a precautionary move all essential personel were evacuated from the ship. Not sure how people claim this to be a plot hole as it should be common sense.

Agreed but there is the problem. Common sense no longer exists in the common world.

Actually common sense would have been to install the IFF near the citedal or some major Alliance facility like Arcturus station so that if something went wrong there would be help nearby. Nope, can't do that now can we, it has to be in interstellar space lightyears from nowhere just after finishing legions quest in my case. I would think that being able to produce a collector ship right near the Citedal would be a useful piece of evidence fo rthe council.{smilie}



If common sense REALLY needs to be brought into this debate a far more controlled environment than the Normandy's computers would be ideal. What we have instead is lazy writing.

Yes, turn on the IFF of a reaper near the citadel or alliance base. If they did that then the collectors very well could have unleashed their swarms on either the alliance base or the citadel, taking every human there and probably killing anyone else. The way they did it only the normandy was at risk in case the Reaper IFF was yet another trap which it was.



Being able to produce a collector ship near the citadel would not be a good idea since their main cannon ripped through the shields of one of the most advanced warships of its time. Cruisers might have been able to destroy it with thalanx cannons but not before it wiped out several lesser ships/ attacked the citadel. Bringing it to an alliance base would be even worse since the base wouldn't have been on full alert what it would take for them to successfully repel a collector attack and that would have filled many more pods.

That doesn't make sense when you consider that the Collector Ship is very fragile. The colony defenses on Horizon dealt enough damage do it in just a few minutes to force a retreat. It's made pretty clear that the Collector Ship does not hold up well against direct attacks and is designed for ambushing undefended ships and colonies.



If that thing showed up in front of the Citadel, Illium, or any place with a number of defense ships orbiting it, it would be ripped to shreds. Plus you;re forgetting that the Collectors don't want to make their presence well known. Having their only warship pop up in front of the Citadel would completley ruin that. It wouldn't be able to attack anyone because it would never get the chance. Also if they thought the IFF was a trap, then leaving the Normandy without a combat capable crew in the middle of space with no defense was the dumbest move imaginable. How is that a remotely good idea?

[Xaijin]

ReconTeam wrote...

Normandy ran out of coffee, so Shepard had to pick some up and took the whole crew.
Seriously EDI should have tested it somewhere else.

Of course, because ten reapers showing up in the Widow is a piece of cake.

BRAIN AM HURT

That doesn't make sense when you consider that the Collector Ship is
very fragile.

It's always great to argue from hidnsight, huh. Makes you right every time.

Modifié par Xaijin, 07 avril 2010 - 02:08 .

[Canderous87]

Rocket Weazle wrote...

When Sheperd said "You've thought of everything" I knew some lazy plotting was afoot

hahaha I was just about to comment on that, seriously, it's like Shepard was so for the idea of shoving every squadmate onto 1 tiny shuttle and then flying off into space? Ever heard of the phrase "Never hold all your eggs in 1 basket"?

Shepard was far more vulnerable flying around in a small shuttle cramped with 12 people then he would have been on the Normandy. What if the Collector Vessel pulled up along side the Normandy as Shepard and the squad were leaving? they would have blasted that dropship with 1 laser blast.

CRITICAL MISSION FAIL.

[DarthRevan4life]

@ Nizzemancer - sorry can't quote as I'm on my iPhone. Your forgetting a few things:

1. They did blow up the Normandy once and we saw how that worked out.

2. The citadel isn't enclosed unless the arms are sealed so hypothetically the swarms could potentially get inside.

3. The Collectors weren't around when Shepherd boarded the Reaper IFF so there goes that option.



Although we know what a transponder is who is to say that the Reaper IFF couldn't transmit a signal to disable a ship because isn't that what basically happened when Shepherd boarded the Collector ship the first time? My point is you go into a situation always thinking worst case scenario and activating the IFF isolated makes the most strategic sense given the enemy we are facing.

[TuringPoint]

I think EDI actually suggests it. That might influence Shepard's decision.



I think it might be important to realize that Shepard does not, in fact, have to leave the ship for them to install the IFF. Shepard and team have to leave while it's getting installed, because the ship can't move... right?



In hindsight the situation places them in a lot of danger. It does make sense, but it's also somewhat of a deliberate oversight on the part of the writers.



It's just a work of fiction. It made a good story. Oversights happen in real life.

[Canderous87]

No, it's like the writers were like:

"Wouldn't it be cool if the crew got abducted by the collectors? That would really ****** Shepard off, and force him to stop whatever missions he planned on doing with Legion so he would be rushed into finishing the game early, leaving no choice to the player whatsoever"

"Yea but how will the collectors get the crew? They would have to fight Shepard and the whole squad, man that sounds like more work then it's worth, scrap this idea"

"No! Why don't we just force Shepard and the squad onto the Kodiak for no reason at all, other then to make an excuse to leave the crew exposed for collector invasion."

"Brilliant!"

Modifié par Canderous87, 07 avril 2010 - 02:25 .

[Masticetobbacco]

I remember some funny stories made up in what happened when everyone was crammed into the shuttle. Does anyone have it

[Internet Kraken]

Xaijin wrote...

That doesn't make sense when you consider that the Collector Ship is
very fragile.

It's always great to argue from hidnsight, huh. Makes you right every time.

What exactly does hindsight have to do with this?

DarthRevan4life wrote...
 My point is you go into a situation
always thinking worst case scenario and activating the IFF isolated
makes the most strategic sense given the enemy we are facing.

The Collectors excel at hunting down isolated ships and colonies that can not properly defend themselves when caught of guard. This is not a secret either. The Collectors have been doing this for 2 years now. So how does activating the IFF in an isolated location make any sense in this regard?

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 07 avril 2010 - 02:50 .

[DarthRevan4life]

@ Internet Kraken - I'm not saying it's a good thing to go up against an enemy who specializes in isolated attacks. What I'm trying to point out is the best scenario with the fewest possible casualties is to activate the IFF when isolated solely on a "what if" scenario. Yes we now know that activating the IFF it brought the Collector ship...but if we didn't know that I still think activating it away from critical locations is key.

[Internet Kraken]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

@ Internet Kraken - I'm not saying it's a good thing to go up against an enemy who specializes in isolated attacks. What I'm trying to point out is the best scenario with the fewest possible casualties is to activate the IFF when isolated solely on a "what if" scenario. Yes we now know that activating the IFF it brought the Collector ship...but if we didn't know that I still think activating it away from critical locations is key.

Why? If we activated it next to the Citadel, nothing would have happended. The Collector Ship would have been blown up if they tried to attack. I don't see how activating it in isolation is a good idea for any reason.

[DarthRevan4life]

Like I said, we are fully aware of what happens when the IFF is activated...but if we didn't know what we now know would you think differently? Citadel security is heightened yes, but no where does it say the fleet presence is as well (could be wrong). The Normandy did well the 2nd time against the Collector ship due to the upgrades...who is to say any ships near the Citadel could/would fare well in an attack?



To me if we had any control then I would have had the Normandy had a preprogrammed FTL plot to where a sizeable fleet would be waiting to bust any trap.

[Internet Kraken]

DarthRevan4life wrote...



Like I said, we are fully aware of what happens when the IFF is activated...but if we didn't know what we now know would you think differently? Citadel security is heightened yes, but no where does it say the fleet presence is as well (could be wrong). The Normandy did well the 2nd time against the Collector ship due to the upgrades...who is to say any ships near the Citadel could/would fare well in an attack?

The colony defenses on Horizon did enough damage to the Colllector Ship in just a few minutes to force a retreat. I think it's safe to assume that all of the ships guarding the Citadel would be capable of destroying the Collector Ship.

[Aedan_Cousland]

He was in the middle of some calibrations.