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Could Dragon Age benefit from linearity?


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#1
Hollingdale

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I am of the opinion that the ''classical bioware here are four areas visit them in whichever order you like'' is really quite unnecessary and bad for their games and that this shows quite clear in Dragon Age. Here are some arguments for:

1. Linearity would allow Bioware to pace their stories better and it would allow them to write them more complex and better without running into complications.

2. Linearity would allow Bioware to present their worlds in a more logical fashion rather than having players randombly stroll through the world.

3. Linearity would remedy the problem with getting certain party members near the end of the game giving little time to get to know them.

4. Choosing which order you venture through areas is not true freedom. True freedom consists within freedom of making choices that shape the game's story and more effort could be put into this without the complications that often arise in getting story to make sense no matter how you play it.  Yeah this is similar to point 1.


In the below link I 've drawn a very crude and simple graphic representation of how linearity is seperated from the 4 area system used in Dragon Age aswell as in both KOTOR games. There is also a text that elaborates on the subject.

WARNING, the below link does however contain spoilers regarding the aforementioned games

http://img28.imagesh...4areasystem.jpg





B)

Modifié par Hollingdale, 07 avril 2010 - 09:43 .


#2
astrallite

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Dragon Age is a first, actually.

In previous Bioware games, the main plot was linear, although you were free to explore areas as you chose. The difference is game design. In previous Bioware games, 90% of the game world was free exploration, 10% was plot related.

In Dragon Age, it's about the other way around. Almost none of the game world is a "gas station pit stop."

This isn't a classic design at all. I do agree it leads to a lot of confusion. I do like the older Bioware games were the main plot followed a linear fashion, but the game world was detached and you could explore as you pleased.

For example, Baldur's Gate:

You had a lot of areas you could freely explore, but the plot would only advance if you visited certain areas and completed tasks in a set order.

Image IPB

Modifié par astrallite, 06 avril 2010 - 08:21 .


#3
Faust1979

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I would like a game that breaks more from the bioware mold and a deeper story. I would like to see the next Dragon Age go with the chapters route like Jade Empire did

#4
Challseus

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I agree that linearity usually leads to better story/party member relationships. That said, I still liked what we got in Dragon Age. So, I guess you can throw me in the camp of, "It wouldn't bother me either way they approach the next game".

EDIT - Scratch that, I think I would like to see a more linear story in their next game, to see how they handled it.

Modifié par Challseus, 06 avril 2010 - 08:48 .


#5
RobUnreal

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even though it is not traditionally linear, Dragon Age does actually have a recommended progression. Even though you could, technically, go to Orzammar after Lothering, it isn't recommended as the enemies are of higher levels than, say, Redcliffe or The Circle Tower. The Circle Tower is actually the recommended step after Lothering.

#6
Valarioth

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A properly written linear RPG will always outclass a "choose your own adventure" RPG in terms of story, pacing, and character development.  The trade off is there is slightly less replayability compared to being able to choose where you go on subsequent playthroughs--you always know what will happen and in what order.

I would love to see Bioware develop a truly linear RPG.  Final Fantasy X was extremely linear and it had very good pacing, story telling and character involvement (though it's far from a better RPG than Dragon Age).  I feel Bioware could deliver a fantastic linear RPG--like playing a movie-game hybrid.

#7
thegreateski

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This game is linear.

It's VERY loose in its linearity though.

The only problem with this ENTIRE ARGUMENT is that in the end it's all a matter of opinion.

Modifié par thegreateski, 06 avril 2010 - 09:24 .


#8
Nukenin

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I agree.  Choice should be stricken from Dragon Age entirely.  The game lets you pick the color of yer character's nostril hair, for Maker's sake!  Do we really need that?

Fixing the protagonist to just one character, one look, one origin, and one gender will go a long way towards making for a better story-telling experience.  Imagine how rich the dwarf noble origin could be made if it were the only origin?  And dialog referring to the protagonist's sexy bald head could be recorded, since the protagonist will always be sexy and bald.

Secondly, dialog choices.  Talk about an immersion-killer!  I am not the main character, I am just a passive observer.  Let him say what the script tells him to say.  Imagine the cost savings, not having to record unnecessary voice-overs or cutscenes for extraneous conversation paths.

Thirdly, moving around.  The script dictates where the party will go, not me.  I'm just watching.  Same for combat.  The outcome is predetermined, why make the player click buttons and such?  Give his fingers a break!  Just the spacebar is all that's needed, to pause the game for bio breaks and such.

Fourthly, with the game so streamlined, cutting the time down to two or three hours would be very perfecto (muy perfect).  The player can just pipe the output of his computer or console to the big screen TV, sit back on the couch with a bag of popcorn and a sugar-infused, caffeinated beverage of choice, and enjoy the game as it's meant to be enjoyed.  Choice, pshaw!  Linearity, yay!

Replayability is a simple matter of waiting a few months and watching the game again.

Removing choice from the game is an excellent idea and I heartily endorse it.  They need to make sure to retro-patch DA:Origins and DA:Awakening to the new linear standard so that all players on all platforms can experience Dragon Age as the Maker intended.

For those on the fence, just think of all the time you've spent with Dragon Age making decisions.  Decisions that could have (nay, should have) been made for you!  Where to go, what to do, what to wear, whose boots to knock.  This all should've been scripted for ya!

We have to make sure Bioware hears us!  They need to take the role out of the role-playing game, and replace the playing with watching, and replace the game with movie!  Yeah!  :o

<_<

Modifié par Nukenin, 06 avril 2010 - 09:24 .


#9
thegreateski

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Nukenin wrote...
<_<


You loved writing that didn't you? Image IPB

#10
AlanC9

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Well, while "classical " is a bit of a stretch, Bio has done several games with the "4 areas in any order" structure, and it is getting a little stale. It goes back to NWN1, in a sense, though in that case you did it three times in succession. It differs from BG1, as noted, and BG2 was only superficially similar.  (limit was cash, not quests, and you didn't have to do them all).

As for the OP's argument... well, it's not really an argument, is it? Not yet, anyway.

1. Linearity would allow Bioware to pace their stories better and it would allow them to write them more complex and better without running into complications.


Could you make an actual case here? Go ahead and use examples from other media if game examples won't get the job done. How about starting with what was wrong with DA's pacing.

2. Linearity would allow Bioware to present their worlds in a more logical fashion rather than having players randombly stroll through the world.


This is just confused. There is nothing illogical about the party's actions in DA, and they are most certainly not random. Every place you go in the game is there because you are going there either in service of the main quest or for a sidequest. If you want to argue that the player has no business accepting sidequests while on a vital mission, that's reasonable (I though most of the ME1 sidequests made no sense at all.) But random wandering simply isn't what DA is about.

3. Linearity would remedy the problem with getting certain party members near the end of the game giving little time to get to know them.


True, if the designers give you all the companions early. Even in a linear verion of DA the Secret Companion still wouldn't be available before the endgame, and was there anything wrong with introducing Zevran in the midgame?

4. Choosing which order you venture through areas is not true freedom. True freedom consists within freedom of making choices that shape the game's story and more effort could be put into this without the complications that often arise in getting story to make sense no matter how you play it.  Yeah this is similar to point 1.


True, but this isn't a positive argument in favor of removing the freedom of choosing the order to do things; it's just showing that you don't actually too much damage that way.

Edit: what happens when you don't make a real case is that you leave yourself open to a post like Nukenin's. He can just bring the snark because there's nothing he has to actually engage with . I almost posted something along those lines myself, though I don't think I would have done as good a job as he did.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 avril 2010 - 09:44 .


#11
Nukenin

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thegreateski wrote...

Nukenin wrote...
<_<


You loved writing that didn't you? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

:D

I think DA has a good structure.  The illusion of choice but eventually we all get funneled to the same destination.  It mixes it up a bit for replayability.  I'm content. 

Modifié par Nukenin, 06 avril 2010 - 09:42 .


#12
Wyndham711

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Both solutions have their merits and demerits. I don't really mind either way, as long as the writing is of high quality. :)

#13
Nukenin

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Wyndham711 wrote...

Both solutions have their merits and demerits. I don't really mind either way, as long as the writing is of high quality. :)

So you're saying they need new writers?  :o

I jest, I jest!  :innocent:

#14
Hollingdale

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Valarioth wrote...

A properly written linear RPG will always outclass a "choose your own adventure" RPG in terms of story, pacing, and character development.  The trade off is there is slightly less replayability compared to being able to choose where you go on subsequent playthroughs--you always know what will happen and in what order.

I would love to see Bioware develop a truly linear RPG.  Final Fantasy X was extremely linear and it had very good pacing, story telling and character involvement (though it's far from a better RPG than Dragon Age).  I feel Bioware could deliver a fantastic linear RPG--like playing a movie-game hybrid.


Damn this is funny, I  originally made a long OP where I talked about FFX and how it has very very good world presentation and pacing which would not be possible without it's linearity, but I decided too keep things simple and leave this discussion more openended. I also thought that people wouldn't like me drawing parallels to Jrpgs in general. I wouldnt want bioware to make jrpg games, but I do believe it's ok to single out a good element from jrpgs because it could benefit westerns just as much.

#15
Hollingdale

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Nukenin: And the opposite would be oblivion I guess, a large soulless ''free'' world in a game that never ends and that has one of the lamest **** mainplots ever. Extremeties often suck yes, but I still fail to grasp how you thought I wanted Dragon Age to turn into a lotr movie from my OP. Really a more natural outcome would be a book.

Also tbh is there any real need to give examples to explain why there story will allways be better if properly written in a linear fashion?
Just imagine writting a book but giving people the choice to read chapters in whatever order they please.
In any case the author ironically has much more freedom when writing the plot if it is linear and this should really be obvious to anyone.

Edit: One example I guess would be how the author could actually kill off main cast members (no I don't mean leaving Sten behind or slitting the throat of zevran) to culminate dramatic events. A big problem in dragon age imo is how harmless the dark spawn really feel, you slize through them like butter and they really never instigate any fear. Having a cast member brutally fall prey to them would be cool.

Modifié par Hollingdale, 06 avril 2010 - 11:32 .


#16
Eagle oo8i

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This is a perfect example of a game that is ruined by linearity

#17
thegreateski

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Hollingdale wrote...

Valarioth wrote...

A properly written linear RPG will always outclass a "choose your own adventure" RPG in terms of story, pacing, and character development.  The trade off is there is slightly less replayability compared to being able to choose where you go on subsequent playthroughs--you always know what will happen and in what order.

I would love to see Bioware develop a truly linear RPG.  Final Fantasy X was extremely linear and it had very good pacing, story telling and character involvement (though it's far from a better RPG than Dragon Age).  I feel Bioware could deliver a fantastic linear RPG--like playing a movie-game hybrid.


Damn this is funny, I  originally made a long OP where I talked about FFX and how it has very very good world presentation and pacing which would not be possible without it's linearity, but I decided too keep things simple and leave this discussion more openended. I also thought that people wouldn't like me drawing parallels to Jrpgs in general. I wouldnt want bioware to make jrpg games, but I do believe it's ok to single out a good element from jrpgs because it could benefit westerns just as much.

And there is the problem.

It's not a "good element"

It's a JRPG element. If Bioware included it in their game then it wouldn't be a WRPG anymore, it would be a western knockoff of JRPGs.

Still I believe that it's all a matter of opinion. I also believe that JRPGs are evil and should die but that's another topic completely.

#18
Hollingdale

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And there is the problem.

It's not a "good element"

It's a JRPG element. If Bioware included it in their game then it wouldn't be a WRPG anymore, it would be a western knockoff of JRPGs.

Still I believe that it's all a matter of opinion. I also believe that JRPGs are evil and should die but that's another topic completely.


Come on dude thats some really shallow logical fallacies right there and no way to argue.

Jrpgs suck. Jrpgs are linear.

Therefore Linearity sucks! Makes sense! (Not.)

Modifié par Hollingdale, 06 avril 2010 - 11:22 .


#19
soteria

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Linear vs Open isn't really a defining aspect of JRPGs. FF VI and VII were largely open worlds, while X and XIII are almost completely linear. I'm also not sure that I buy that linear is always > open in terms of story. It's arguably true if we just look at WRPGs (Morrowind, Fallout et al vs Bioware), but within the Final Fantasy franchise I don't think it holds true. X was a great game, but I think most people who played them would probably rank VI or VII as better even just in terms of storytelling.



To put it another way, I'm not convinced by the argument that linear gameplay automattically lends itself to superior storytelling. Some companies are better at story than others, and even within a company not all writers are equal, and, as most readers know, even great authors don't always write moving stories. I think there are other factors at play here than simply linear and open.

#20
Hollingdale

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Well the main story of FFVII is really linear, but the game does come off as quite open if you do all the sidequest stuff.



Also I don't think linearity automattically lends itself superior, but rather that it ultimately has much more potential.

#21
thegreateski

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Hollingdale wrote...


And there is the problem.

It's not a "good element"

It's a JRPG element. If Bioware included it in their game then it wouldn't be a WRPG anymore, it would be a western knockoff of JRPGs.

Still I believe that it's all a matter of opinion. I also believe that JRPGs are evil and should die but that's another topic completely.


Come on dude thats some really shallow logical fallacies right there and no way to argue.

Jrpgs suck. Jrpgs are linear.

Therefore Linearity sucks! Makes sense! (Not.)

I didn't say that?

I just hate JRPGs. Whether or not they "suck" is a different thing altogether.

#22
Hollingdale

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The point is your argument as to why linearity is not a good element was just the fact that it's a Jrpg element which is an obvious assosiation fallacy.

#23
soteria

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Hollingdale wrote...

Well the main story of FFVII is really linear, but the game does come off as quite open if you do all the sidequest stuff.

Also I don't think linearity automattically lends itself superior, but rather that it ultimately has much more potential.


...we're going to have to nail down what we mean by linear, because I feel like you're using the word in different ways.  In the OP you seemed to be talking about being able to travel freely and do things in a different order.  Then you started talking about JRPGs, and I guess I missed the connection when I first read that.  JRPGs are "linear" in that you don't have dialogue options.  Really the only difference is that WRPGs allow you to define your own motivations, and make a number of minor choices that usually have no real affect on the plot (like killing people or sparing them).

If Bioware could stand to learn something from Square, imo it's the cutscene.  So many epic fights in Dragon Age could have been made better with a little bit more acknowledgement from the characters that something epic just happened.  Some fights end without anyone even commenting on what happened, which is odd to me given that the stregnth of these games is usually the dialogue.

#24
Hollingdale

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soteria wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

Well the main story of FFVII is really linear, but the game does come off as quite open if you do all the sidequest stuff.

Also I don't think linearity automattically lends itself superior, but rather that it ultimately has much more potential.


...we're going to have to nail down what we mean by linear, because I feel like you're using the word in different ways.  In the OP you seemed to be talking about being able to travel freely and do things in a different order.  Then you started talking about JRPGs, and I guess I missed the connection when I first read that.  JRPGs are "linear" in that you don't have dialogue options.  Really the only difference is that WRPGs allow you to define your own motivations, and make a number of minor choices that usually have no real affect on the plot (like killing people or sparing them).

If Bioware could stand to learn something from Square, imo it's the cutscene.  So many epic fights in Dragon Age could have been made better with a little bit more acknowledgement from the characters that something epic just happened.  Some fights end without anyone even commenting on what happened, which is odd to me given that the stregnth of these games is usually the dialogue.


What I mean when I say I would like linearity added to Biowares game's is the replacing of the 4 area system with a linear progression through the world to allow for better world presentation and narrative.

''4. Choosing which order you venture through areas is not true freedom. True freedom consists of making choices that shape the game's story. More effort could be put into this without the complications that often arise in getting story to make sense no matter the order in which you play it.''

Simply put I believe that a linear story and progression through the world could actually give more room for the kind of choices that Imo are a big part of what makes Bioware rpg's so great.

On a sidenote Bioware did a rather poor job with the ending in Dragon Origins as it often woulnd't make any sense if you had taken certain decisions indicating that they did go in over their heads with it.

I'm not sure I'm with you with the cutscene thingy, but I do think that there's much too little Dialogue when events actually take place in Dragon age, which I guess is what youre getting at. Party camp dialogue is great and all but sometimes in Dragon Age it's like all your party members are completely apathic to whats going on.

#25
Wozearly

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soteria wrote...

If Bioware could stand to learn something from Square, imo it's the cutscene.  So many epic fights in Dragon Age could have been made better with a little bit more acknowledgement from the characters that something epic just happened.  Some fights end without anyone even commenting on what happened, which is odd to me given that the stregnth of these games is usually the dialogue.


Agreed.

Taking an example from a totally different genre (RTS) in Dawn of War Dark Crusade, the sledging between the opposing army commanders during the epic 'base' fights was surprisingly effective at characterisation, making the whole thing feel very, very personal...and denoting that this was an important fight. They also opened and concluded with cutscenes. Its a very effective method and, eerily enough, surprisingly underused in DA:O.

In terms of the linearity discussion, its swings and roundabouts. True linearity gives a better potential for storytelling as you know what the player will see when, what he will have done (or not done) and who is with him, and that can all be used to craft an engaging plot line. However, that tends to come at the cost of a hefty dose of fatalism, with the player feeling that they're being forced along a defined path of completing (x) before (y) before (z).

Equally, it doesn't necessarily make for a better story. Cutting it up into four pieces makes it impossible to guarantee that in any single playthrough the player will experience the full breadth of the game - especially as Bioware likes to plant NPC party members mid-way through the four key story arcs and give you more players than you have active character slots.

This doesn't add to the single playthrough experience, but gives way more to a replay than a second run of the linear story would. There are only a few honourable exceptions (Mafia, Deus Ex, Thief series) where I'd happily replay a heavily linear story-driven game over and over because the story (and game) are both good enough to warrant it.

Focusing on storytelling as the key quality, this isn't really about whether its linear or split into four interchangeable sections - its key qualities are going to be about how it engages with the player, how it surprises them and rewards them (figuratively speaking), how their actions in the game world affect the story and so forth.

At this point, linearity can be a millstone because player must do action (x) to allow story event (y) which always leads to part (z)...unless you start adopting a branching paths strategy where an early action can have severe repercussions later, or force you into a different story 'path'.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the branching paths approach when its done right, as it can lead to wildly different conclusions to the same essential story. And, if given the effort, different sections, different quests and a whole different feel. KotoR had a huge branching paths feel to it (although it never stopped you going between branches in principle), albeit with only two outcomes and relatively limited consequences.

Dragon Age is clearly a spiritual successor, as each of the four major quest lines has a branching path in it (some quite dramatically, some only at a late stage), as does the finale with its endings. However, they're all relatively isolated and only rarely complement or interfere with future paths except in a very minor way.

In fairness to Bioware, that style of RPG in computer games is still in its infancy - at least amongst major, high cost titles. Not least because it requires a heck of a lot of extra work to get right, and gives more opportunities to get it wrong in some way without adding value to the first run of a story. You only ever benefit from that approach if you replay the game which, lets face it, not everyone will. For each of those people, its time wasted from a development perspective - even if the replayers tend to love it.

Anyway, I've rambled. Ultimately, branching paths works well with linear or non-linear storylines, although its more helpful in the 4-story arc approach as it helps to disguise the fact that the player is, somewhat inevitably, following a relatively linear path throughout the game.

I'd say the key thing is not the structure of the game, but the quality of its storytelling - and in my opinion, David Gaider and the other writers bloody well excelled themselves in DA:O on that score.

...and for what its worth, given the choice, I personally prefer the 4-arc approach to the linear one. :P

Modifié par Wozearly, 07 avril 2010 - 12:29 .