105 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Herr Uhl wrote...

That one about there being more darkness in the hearts of men than any blight (not sure about the end)

And the one about finding things in socks too, to a lesser extent .

Sometimes even crazy, people-eating witch-b!tches are right, it seems.....

[Axekix]

Hah! "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature." Rather poignant, eh?

[OldMan91]

That depends. Do humans go around killing everyone mindlessly and turning other species into broodmothers?

[Tirigon]

OldMan91 wrote...

That depends. Do humans go around killing everyone mindlessly and turning other species into broodmothers?

Second part, not as far as I know. First part.... erm yes?! That´s what happens in about every war.....

[OldMan91]

Second part, not as far as I know. First part.... erm yes?! That´s what happens in about every war.....

No. Wars happen for concrete reasons, which may be rational to one side or the other. Even the most stupid wars have reasons behind them, which could be resources, territory, political unions, etc.

[Tirigon]

OldMan91 wrote...

No. Wars happen for concrete reasons, which may be rational to one side or the other. Even the most stupid wars have reasons behind them, which could be resources, territory, political unions, etc.

Maybe, but this is true for the darkspawn too. You find out in Awakening.

So, if you accept Human reasons for wars, no matter how dumb they are, you can´t say the darkspawn kill without reason. There reason is no way more stupid than for most wars I know of.


Also, reasons like those you named MIGHT (though personally I disagree) justify a war, but never the slaughtering and torturing of civilians, what happens in every war. And, to come back to the original topic, it was and sadly still is rather common to rape women in a war, sometimes even as part of the strategy.

No matter what you think about them, the Darkspawn never act so "inhuman" (though that´s a rather ridiculous term in the context).

Modifié par Tirigon, 07 avril 2010 - 10:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

roundcrow wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Axekix wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I too understood it that way. But she only talks about this once and it's too hasty to assume anything just from this one sentence imo. I wouldn't be surprised at all if rape was involved however.

Yeah that's the main reason I had some doubt.  She kind of glosses over it and it's never brought up again.  But I think the hints are pretty strong.

I am a rape victim and I will tell you, if it comes up, I certainly gloss over it. 99% of the time, I have no interest in discussing it, much less remembering it.

I've been through quite a few things and I never mention them in conversation.  If it's inevitable, I use a very neutral tone, so Leliana's demeanor in that conversation didn't seem strange to me at all.  There's only so much emotion most conversations can handle, I think.

I apologise to both of you and everyone else if what I said offended. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

[Sable Phoenix]

Mirthadrond wrote...

You don't have scar someone to torture them, and rape seems to me to be a poor choice for torture. "if you don't confess we'll rape you again....". After the first time, if she wasn't completely broken, and she is a bard who uses sex as a weapon, would the 2nd or 10th time really make a difference?
I suppose it's possible, but would it get her to confess? I don't think so.
There are plenty of ways to torture someone without leaving obvious signs, and we meet her several years after the event, so the signs that did exist might have healed.

Um... yes.  The second or tenth time actually would make a difference.  In torture situations (and frankly nearly all situations) rape is meant to dehumanize the victim, not to get her to confess.  It's meant to break her will and demonstrate to her her own worthlessness.  Training or no training, the experience would be both horrifying and terrifying, and knowing that every time the guards come back to your cell the experience could be repeated would only worsen those feelings.  Keep in mind also that her training as a bard would not have helped her as much as one might expect; she is open about the fact that she had sex without love involved and with ulterior motives, but she was always in a position of power in those situations.  She would have been utterly powerless to her captors, and that would be one of the main goals of rape, to drive that point home to her.

Let's also consider her escape. She used her training to get away.
By that, I presumed she used female persuation to distract/disarm a guard.
Would such technique work on a man who just raped you?

Easily.  A rapist wants to believe, more than anything else, that his victim actually enjoyed it.  If Leliana kept her wits about her she would probably have found it easier to manipulate her rapist(s) than she would her other captors.

She also has a healthy view on sex, which doesn't seem likely without years of therapy.
Maybe the chantry helped, in this regard??
Regardless, I prefer to think she was subject to conventional torture, and not raped in the process. They wanted information and physical pain and fear of death is the easiest method of getting it.
Rape is humiliating, vile and painful, but not nearly as painful as bamboo sticks under fingernails, or frightening as waterboarding.

A rape victim can still maintain, or recover, a healthy view of sex.  It's difficult, but possible, and therapy isn't magic; it can only speed up the process.  You don't usually shut down completely, or wander around flinching away from anyone who tries to touch you.  In fact, some people actually become promiscuous in response to a rape.  But the wound is an emotional wound, and like any emotional wound it never goes away completely, unlike physical pain which is very difficult to remember after it's over.  I think that Leliana's character fits pretty well with a rape victim.  She certainly changed her behavior completely after her captivity and torture, and as far as I've been able to determine, the Warden is the first person she sleeps with or is in any way romantic with afterwards (provided that romance is pursued, of course)

Since it's never said; I like to think it didn't happen.

I would like to think it didn't happen too... but the implication is there and the first time I heard her say it, I immediately came to the conclusion that she suffered it.  She's a beautiful woman and I would be surprised if at least one of her captors didn't give in to his lust for power and pleasure, even if they weren't specifically ordered to.

My heart ached for Leliana after that conversation, and it was one of the factors that made it really hard for my mage to turn her down for Alistair, even though she had never even considered a lesbian romance before she met Leliana.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 07 avril 2010 - 10:09 .

[OldMan91]

Maybe, but this is true for the darkspawn too. You find out in Awakening.



So, if you accept Human reasons for wars, no matter how dumb they are, you can´t say the darkspawn kill without reason. There reason is no way more stupid than for most wars I know of.

Darkspawn kill for the simple reason of spreading the blight/taint/darkspawn squishy stuff. To reproduce, they require females of other races. Darkspawn constantly seek out Old Gods to taint, so as to turn them into Archdemons. They do this because it's their nature to do this. Their reasons are therefore far from being human.

[Tirigon]

OldMan91 wrote...

Maybe, but this is true for the darkspawn too. You find out in Awakening.

So, if you accept Human reasons for wars, no matter how dumb they are, you can´t say the darkspawn kill without reason. There reason is no way more stupid than for most wars I know of.

Darkspawn kill for the simple reason of spreading the blight/taint/darkspawn squishy stuff. To reproduce, they require females of other races. Darkspawn constantly seek out Old Gods to taint, so as to turn them into Archdemons. They do this because it's their nature to do this. Their reasons are therefore far from being human.

More understandable Imo.

I think killing because it´s the only way to survive as a race is a better reason than killing because you want the other one´s oil.

Also, the Architect shows that the Darkspawn (or at least part of them) try to free themselves from the Old God´s will. It´s not as if they´d do all that voluntarily.

[OldMan91]

I think killing because it´s the only way to survive as a race is a better reason than killing because you want the other one´s oil.

The reasons for going to war are a little more complex than, "Let's grab their oil! LOL!", but I understand if you're operating under the assumption that all wars are unjust or wrong. I share that opinion and I don't want to go into socio-economic or political reasons as to why war happens.

Also, the Architect shows that the Darkspawn (or at least part of them) try to free themselves from the Old God´s will. It´s not as if they´d do all that voluntarily.

That's one darkspawn out of... how many? And his experiments lead to "The Mother" becoming insane and choosing to Stabbity Stab, kill kill everyone in order to hear the "sound/music/voice", which is basically the call of the Old Gods.

Not that i'm unsympathetic with what he's trying to do, but his methods and results have been... very extreme and poor.

To get back on topic: After romancing Morrigan/Alistair/Zevran a few times, I've kept romancing Leliana with every character i've made. I remember her mentioning that line with the "Terrible things" part, and I also came to the conclusion that she may have been a victim of rape. Of course that just made me respect and appreciate her more.

Modifié par OldMan91, 07 avril 2010 - 10:16 .

[Maria13]

Herr Uhl wrote...

You think rape doesn't happen to the females (and males) being tortured in Ferelden? It's not usually the well-mannered types that run such establishments, if you catch my drift.

Indeed it does, when you first go into arl Howe's dungeon, if you are a female warden the first thing the first soldier tells you is: "We've been told we can have fun with anyone who comes down here, looks like your a good one", or something to that effect.

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

roundcrow wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Axekix wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I too understood it that way. But she only talks about this once and it's too hasty to assume anything just from this one sentence imo. I wouldn't be surprised at all if rape was involved however.

Yeah that's the main reason I had some doubt.  She kind of glosses over it and it's never brought up again.  But I think the hints are pretty strong.

I am a rape victim and I will tell you, if it comes up, I certainly gloss over it. 99% of the time, I have no interest in discussing it, much less remembering it.

I've been through quite a few things and I never mention them in conversation.  If it's inevitable, I use a very neutral tone, so Leliana's demeanor in that conversation didn't seem strange to me at all.  There's only so much emotion most conversations can handle, I think.

I apologise to both of you and everyone else if what I said offended. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

I suppose I should retract my statement as well, since I have no first hand experience with the subject to draw from.  I do apologize if that was misconstrued.

I do thank you both for your candor however.

[Tirigon]

Maria13 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

You think rape doesn't happen to the females (and males) being tortured in Ferelden? It's not usually the well-mannered types that run such establishments, if you catch my drift.

Indeed it does, when you first go into arl Howe's dungeon, if you are a female warden the first thing the first soldier tells you is: "We've been told we can have fun with anyone who comes down here, looks like your a good one", or something to that effect.

When we´re at that, let me just say: City elf origin, Vaughan!!!

That bastard says all you need to know about Ferelden´s nobility.

[Herr Uhl]

Tirigon wrote...

When we´re at that, let me just say: City elf origin, Vaughan!!!

That bastard says all you need to know about Ferelden´s nobility.

Meh, they're not even human. (racist slur against non-existent races is nice)

[OldMan91]

When we´re at that, let me just say: City elf origin, Vaughan!!!



That bastard says all you need to know about Ferelden´s nobility.

Boy, was I happy when I finally got the chance to off him. Too bad the dialogue options aren't:



1. Kill the guy and move the body into a funny position.

2. Cut his knees, forcing him to kneel (ouch!) and let Shianni do as she pleases with him.

3. Kick him in the nuts.

[AntiChri5]

I interpreted that as rape as well. Rape has to be the most basic and vile method of torturing a woman.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I interpreted that as rape as well. Rape has to be the most basic and vile method of torturing a woman.

Not only women.
In some very recently invaded country, male prisoners were sexually abused in a very well known prison, by the occupying force. And female soldiers were involved in the act.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 avril 2010 - 10:54 .

[AntiChri5]

My memory isnt THAT bad.

[philippe willaume]

asaiasai wrote...

I think it is safe to say that in Medeval societies like DAO is based on, the crime of rape was pretty common. I think both male and female get to share the experience because as some one already posted the dungeons are not run by the kindest of individuals. Dehuminization is a pretty convincing way to exert power over another individual, and inure the perpitrators to thier charges plight.

Asai

well think again.
Rape of noble woman is punishable by death and it is legitimnate case for judical duel (duel to the death).
That extended to common people (hence the judial duel between a man and a women in the manuscpits)

As well it is perfectly acceptable, in medieval time, to kill someone that has raped you wife, daughter  sister.

Now it is clear that the upper class could do pretty much what they wanted to common people.
it need to take very large proportion like Gilles de Rias or Erzebeth Bathory for the ruler to act.
Though it must be said that they were both too powerfull or in the way for the rulers of their respective country.
so the offical accounts are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

phil

[LadyDamodred]

I took it to mean she was raped. It's just in the way she delivers the word 'terrible', for me. There's a hesitation there that immediately sent my mind to it.

And, truly, not to make light of anyone's pain and suffering, because I honestly can never know the horror of something like that, but I have rp'd a character that was raped. Trust me when I say she did not discuss it. And that is simply from an rp perspective. There would be no reason for Leliana to divulge that to you. All you need to know is that she was tortured. Now, for a PC who is romancing her, perhaps later in the relationship she would discuss it, but the storyline of the game doesn't really leave a plausible opportunity to talk about it.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 07 avril 2010 - 11:07 .

[Tirigon]

@ Philippe: Just funny that de Rais wasn´t punished for killing and raping a few hundred children but for conjuring demons.... Apparently that was a much worse crime.

And @Knight: Let´s not talk about the USA´s doings in certain conflicts, it is too sad a topic. With virtual scum like Vaughan you DO at least have the joy to cut their ugly heads off.

Modifié par Tirigon, 07 avril 2010 - 11:08 .

[AntiChri5]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Philippe: Just funny that de Rais wasn´t punished for killing and raping a few hundred children but for conjuring demons.... Apparently that was a much worse crime.

And @Knight: Let´s not talk about the USA´s doings in certain conflicts, it is too sad a topic. With virtual scum like Vaughan you DO at least have the joy to cut their ugly heads off.

And then you get to load up the autosave and do it again.

[philippe willaume]

@ trigon, well it was a religious tribunal that condamned him, at the time secular and spiritual matter were separated and the law was not the same.

he was arrested for entering a church in arms and molesting a underling of the britainy duke.

when he was in jail he was accused of sodomy, witchcraft and murder.

and he confesed only after being excomunicated so that he could be buried in consacred ground.

[Cyberpunk]

can we get one of the writers to comment on this? Whether they intended for Leliana's backstory to include rape?