311 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

The thing is, I have something up on you. I've actually done the Alistair romance from start to finish a few times. I have a feeling you haven't done the Zevran one. Zevran as a romance partner would take on the world for you; one small step further than Alistair will. If you want to marry Alistair, you have to propose. If you don't harden him and keep him pliable and putting everyone ahead of him, yeh, he'll be content. Slavish even!

Edit: Really, I think most people who don't like Zevran never bother to get to know him and just are clueless about how playful he is.  They think OMG he wants to have sex with WYNNE!!!!!!!  He's such a pig!  Naw, he's smart, funny, and not for people lacking confidence! 

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 avril 2010 - 12:37 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

The thing is, I have something up on you. I've actually done the Alistair romance from start to finish a few times. I have a feeling you haven't done the Zevran one. Zevran as a romance partner would take on the world for you; one small step further than Alistair will. If you want to marry Alistair, you have to propose. If you don't harden him and keep him pliable and putting everyone ahead of him, yeh, he'll be content. Slavish even!

Edit: Really, I think most people who don't like Zevran never bother to get to know him and just are clueless about how playful he is.  They think OMG he wants to have sex with WYNNE!!!!!!!  He's such a pig!  Naw, he's smart, funny, and not for people lacking confidence! 

/facepalm

I just said I did the Zevran romance with MPCs 3 times start to finish. I like his romance I don't like him everyone doesn't like the same personality types. Its personal preference. That's not going to change. I'm perfectly valid in not liking him. There are playthroughs were I don't like Wynne, hell some where I don't like Alistair. (I think there was one were I actually liked Morrigan. ) . PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Both have their positives and negatives. Both are willing to fight for the PC. Ali is willing to DIE for the PC. So don't pretend as though one loves the PC less than the other. They both have intense love for the PC. All the LIs do.

Really people can not like character's and still see the good points in their interactions with the PC. Its not strictly one or the other you realize? I don't like Sten. I like the way he challenges the PC. I would like Morri if not for the way that the PC can not challenge her without sounding like an idiot.

Zev can be quite slavish himself. Truth be told the only non-slavish LI is Morri. (I love her and hate her at the same time. If only I could just back talk her! I'd be content!) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 avril 2010 - 12:45 .

[ejoslin]

Ok, I believe you that you did the romance three times! The male one! Try the female one. Try it with the mods that fix all the bugs on him and hear him tell your warden how much he adores him/her. I like a funny, smart, outspoken character. You don't like him.  Great!  You were a bit wall of text so I did miss some of what you said, and for that, well, I apologize for making assumptions! Sometimes you get a few different walls of text from different people that have a bit of the same meaning and it's easy to conflate them. Apparently I did that with you, but I think you've done that with me as well!

I'll never tell anyone they HAVE to like a character -- I'm not sure where you got that. And yeh, I get that opinions on characters change playthrough to playthrough. I just think it's funny that most of the criticisms against Zevran are really not based in much but not getting to know the character. Even you must admit that much is true.

*grin* I can't believe that this thread hasn't been moved yet!

Edit; Wow, I'm guilty of wall of text! Yay me!

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 avril 2010 - 12:50 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I believe you that you did the romance three times! The male one! Try the female one. Try it with the mod that fixes all the bugs on him and hear him tell your warden how much he adores him/her. I like a funny, smart, outspoken character. You don't. You were a bit wall of text so I did miss some of what you said, and for that, well, I apologize for making assumptions! Sometimes you get a few different walls of text from different people that have a bit of the same meaning and it's easy to conflate them. Apparently I did that with you, but I think you've done that with me as well!

I'll never tell anyone they HAVE to like a character -- I'm not sure where you got that. And yeh, I get that opinions on characters change playthrough to playthrough. I just think it's funny that most of the criticisms against Zevran are really not based in much but not getting to know the character. Even you must admit that much is true.

*grin* I can't believe that this thread hasn't been moved yet!

Neh I don't like Zevran. I get that he's playful and all that other but I don't like him. I just don't. Me not liking him doesn't mean I don't "get" him it just means I don't like him. I don't like his front. And I don't like his real self. That's just the way it is. Though you are right most of the complaints on the board are from those that don't bother getting to know him but there are those who did and frankly like me don't care and don't think it validates or excuses the other things he's done.

I don't romance elves with human females. He's too short and to me for roleplaying reasons it makes no sense. (Yeah I know mileage may vary). But I play human females/elf female mages and neither of those I can make a character that would  A. Spare him or B. Romance him and I 'm not fond of metagaming. (Besides they always fall in love with blasted Ali beforehand and my characters are for the most part (unless they're the type to slit Zev's throat from the get go) loyal. The m/f romance isn't that different from one another from what I've seen on Youtube anyways. and the DN and DC I have a feeling would just kill him right off the bat too. The males that romanced him where either acting OOC (which annoys me now) or metagaming. (Tis easier for me to do that with male characters I get annoyed doing it with females and then scrap them).

Though most of my females are either complete and utter cutthroat b****s who would slice Zev's throat the second they saw him or naive airheads who love Ali. I know, I know, I rolled an intelligent no nonsense female too but she saw Ali as a child and killed Zev too. All my sensible characters always slit his throat. Not doing it is OOC for them.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 avril 2010 - 01:01 .

[ejoslin]

It's enough different, but not hugely. You're not going to get the feel for it from youtube. And it doesn't help that Zevran's romance is bugged all to hell which puts people off as well. You don't have to like him; makes ZERO difference to me. I think he's awesome and that's all I care about!

And ok, you fall in love with Alistair! You do put him a bit on a pedestal, but I can see why. But... not for me. No thanks!

Edit: Of course, to go back to the topic, you don't need to have sex with Zevran to complete that relationship, but even if you do, it doesn't end there at all!  Though you do have to proposition him at least once   Still, nothing has to happen.  And you don't have to lose approval.

With Alistair, hmmm, you can gain approval by breaking up with him, but that's a whole different topic 

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 avril 2010 - 01:03 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

It's enough different, but not hugely. You're not going to get the feel for it from youtube. And it doesn't help that Zevran's romance is bugged all to hell which puts people off as well. You don't have to like him; makes ZERO difference to me. I think he's awesome and that's all I care about!

And ok, you fall in love with Alistair! You do put him a bit on a pedestal, but I can see why. But... not for me. No thanks!

Aye. You do the same for Zev though! Don't pretend you don't!

Though every character that I made that was supposed to be serious and down to earth always ends up alone. They always wander off into the sunset too just them and dog. I have to admit though that makes the most sense for those PCs. They're mostly sick of all the nonsense going around them and sick of playing warrior therapist. 

Ali: "I feel insignificiant and have low self esteem! I just want someone to like me for me!"

Morri: "My mom is raised me to be an anti-social b**** and I can't handle emotions well! I don't want to betray you but I have no choice!" 

Zev: "I regret many things in my past and I'm scared of falling in love! Be my friend so I can learn how to make my own decisions!" 

Sten: "...what? Unlike the rest of you humans I can deal with my issues." PC: "Thank the Maker!"

Wynne: "I drove one of my apprentices away and am supposed to be dead! I'm also a large hypocrite! No you can't call me on it (this applies for Morri too now that I think about it.)!" 

Oghren: "I'm a drunk, my life's a mess!"

Leliana: "I was a bard and did everything my bardmaker told me to because I can't help but what to please anyone who makes me happy no matter what they tell me to do, and was pretty much her puppet and now I need you to help me deal with her!" (Among other things).

That was very vague but...ugh.
Nothing wrong with constantly falling in love with the same NPC.
And I did branch out. I romance Leliana on occassion with female PCs.

And Zev, I can see why you like him! He's just not for me though!

And yes OP: you do get dissapproval from Ali but I think its more of the rejection sting then anything else. Like if you wanted to share your first time with you boyfriend but he goes "Uh...not today." You'd be a little disgrunted even if you understood why. Tis only a human reaction. Now if he was to start raving and going if you didn't do it you didn't love him then you kick him to the curb.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[sami jo]

In summary, since the crazy lurker who flamed me via PM and led to me inadvertently starting a fan-tastic brawl then leaving for sushi... OP: nope, it's not about sex.

[Ryzaki]

Elps wrote...
The Landsmeet isn't a hiccup - all the way through the game Alistair shows he only supports the Warden if s/he is doing what he expects them to do. He is not prepared to be a leader, says he will follow your lead, but then questions a lot of your actions and disapproves if they are things he would not have chosen to do. THEN, despite saying that he would always do his duty, would never just abandon the Grey Wardens, he does just that if he does not get his own way in his demand for vengeance - throwing away his love interest/best friend in a tantrum. Even if this does not play out that way, doing what is right for Ferelden gets a snarky, "you owe me" - after everything you have done for him!

I've happily RP'd with Alistair as my HFN love interest, and stuck with him, but every single companion is a mix of dark and light. It's just that the dark side of Alistair is one that is self-interested and willing to throw over his love and his country if it suits him. This is hardly a "hiccup".

Back to topic - it's possible to play out the romances without engaging in sex. The tent activities are entirely optional and completely in the hands of the player. I, for one, am glad Bioware allowed us to create our own fantasy world this way.

Ah true. But one cannot deny no matter how much you infruitate him he stays by your PCs side. Until the landsmeet. That's more what I meant by willing to stay by your side. All of the characters snap at you if you don't do what they want you to do. And will leave you if you irk them off enough Ali won't until that moment. Similar to Morrigan to be honest. *Everyone* does that its not restricted to just Alistair.

Then again I understand the desire to kill someone who did those you love harm and could never actually spare loghain unless making Ali king with Anora. Otherwise it wasn't happening. I could see the reasons for sparing Loghain. Just could never do it. Even with my stupid good pet the puppies type characters. (Guess they have a mean streak in them). Then again Loghain reminds me too much of someone I knew in RL.

And I never said Ali was perfect. All the companions have negative/positive. The only character able to be squeaky clean and close to perfect is the PC and only the PC.

Did I seem as though I was saying there wasn't?   It wasn't intentional.

That's why I don't like explaining why I like characters X because then it seems as though I think they're perfect when I don't.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 avril 2010 - 01:45 .

[sami jo]

@Ryzaki: none of the characters is perfect, you are definitely correct. That is the best thing about the game imo- the characters are (largely) believable precisely because they are so complex.

[Addai]

Elps wrote...

It's just that the dark side of Alistair is one that is self-interested and willing to throw over his love and his country if it suits him. This is hardly a "hiccup".

Egad.  Alistair is the very opposite of self-interested.  That's his main "issue," that he won't/ can't speak up for himself.  Naturally he will voice his opinion on certain things that violate his values, but he's still supportive of the Warden.  He will fight with and for you even when other companions or potential companions attack you.  That is a function of the game, but also an aspect of his character.  And do we really need to go over again how deep a betrayal (from his perspective) is a certain decision you might make towards the end of the game?

[Ryzaki]

Nonvita wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

As is Zevran. One isn't better than the other other than in people's heads. They both have their good and bad points.

Words of wisdom.

I do my best.

[Janni-in-VA]

*passes around a plate of cookies*

Okay, now that we're all friends again.... 

To the OP...no, true romance doesn't have to involve sex.  Truthfully, I hadn't considered playing the romances without sex, which I'm sure says something about me that I might not want to contemplate too deeply.  For instance, it could say that I'm shallow or completely fail to understand True Love.  "Mawwiage.  Twue  Wuve."  It's nice to know that the romances can be played out without sex, though.

Now, I'm going to have to make a new character and romance Zevran with the dialogue fix in place just to get all the nice lines I've apparently missed.  *sigh*  The things I do for love....

[MrBoomba]

I admire the whole ME way to take on the sex scene, but I kinda agree with how it is in DA:O due to the fact that during the medival times, which you assume this takes place in, sex wasnt looked on as wrong as youd think and Romance was actually not as common. This is due to the fact of the constant wars and how disease ridden everything was, the life spam was rather short so people adapted. So, I do agree and I disagree at the same time, this time period thought makes me want it more like ME, but thinking as what happened back then, keep it.

[TheMadCat]

but I kinda agree with how it is in DA:O due to the fact that during
the medival times, which you assume this takes place in, sex wasnt
looked on as wrong as youd think and Romance was actually not as common.

Well, the ideas of love and romance at least was incredibly strong and popular during the early middle ages and even long before that, look at the center theme of a lot of the Roman and Greek tales (Helen as an example, depending on which version you look at). Exactly how the idea of romance translated into reality I'm not positive, marriage was mostly political for all classes throughout the middle ages and the various Renaissance and revolutionary eras, though there are tons of memories and stories which discuss their true loves outside of said marriages.

[AlanC9]

It doesn't matter. Thedas cultures are exactly like Earth cultures right up to the point where they're different.

[Estelindis]

errant_knight wrote...
Disapproval doesn't strickly mean disapproval of the PC, sometimes it can just mean that they just don't like what's going on or, as in this case, you made them feel bad/embarrassed/unhappy. That one there should read '-10 Alistair feels like crap.'

I see where you're coming from on this, but I wish the game gave us an option to totally reassure Alistair that he shouldn't feel like crap at that point.   

I mean, personally, I'd just finished the last quest before Eamon called the Landsmeet when Alistair made this request of my character - I was playing the relationship naturally and slowly, and I really, really liked how sweet and romantic it was.  I loved how *well* my character and Alistair were getting to know one another, and how personally they were involved with the main plot and with each other.  I was honestly expecting it to culminate in a proposal of marriage.  And then it just seemed as if, all of a sudden, Alistair the man turned into Alistair the "love interest."  I was kinda disappointed, because my character really cared about him and she wanted to make a total commitment.  It just seemed like the game made her settle for less.

But that was just my personal feeling the first time I got to the proposition scene.  On subsequently playthroughs my character took him up on it and I thought it was sweet.  It just depends a bit on your expectations.

[Bratt1204]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The thing is, I have something up on you. I've actually done the Alistair romance from start to finish a few times. I have a feeling you haven't done the Zevran one. Zevran as a romance partner would take on the world for you; one small step further than Alistair will. If you want to marry Alistair, you have to propose. If you don't harden him and keep him pliable and putting everyone ahead of him, yeh, he'll be content. Slavish even!

Edit: Really, I think most people who don't like Zevran never bother to get to know him and just are clueless about how playful he is.  They think OMG he wants to have sex with WYNNE!!!!!!!  He's such a pig!  Naw, he's smart, funny, and not for people lacking confidence! 

/facepalm

I just said I did the Zevran romance with MPCs 3 times start to finish. I like his romance I don't like him everyone doesn't like the same personality types. Its personal preference. That's not going to change. I'm perfectly valid in not liking him. There are playthroughs were I don't like Wynne, hell some where I don't like Alistair. (I think there was one were I actually liked Morrigan. ) . PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Both have their positives and negatives. Both are willing to fight for the PC. Ali is willing to DIE for the PC. So don't pretend as though one loves the PC less than the other. They both have intense love for the PC. All the LIs do.

Really people can not like character's and still see the good points in their interactions with the PC. Its not strictly one or the other you realize? I don't like Sten. I like the way he challenges the PC. I would like Morri if not for the way that the PC can not challenge her without sounding like an idiot.

Zev can be quite slavish himself. Truth be told the only non-slavish LI is Morri. (I love her and hate her at the same time. If only I could just back talk her! I'd be content!) 

I feel exactly the same way; I tried the Zev romance many times and just cannot get into him. I cannot be convinced by anyone that the Zev romance is better than Alistair's, I do not feel that is the case at all. That doesn't mean the ladies (or men) who adore the Zev romance aren't justified in thinking their romance with Zev is the best - for them. I just relate to Alistair far better than Zev, he reminds me of my hubby and I just cannot resist him.  Although I prefer Alistair to Zev - I do not criticize those who prefer the Zev romance, he is their type of guy - that's all. Zev is a great character, I am just sick of the Zev fangirls who are ALi hates. I still cannot see how anyone could hate Alistair, he is such a great character.

[MrBoomba]

TheMadCat wrote...

but I kinda agree with how it is in DA:O due to the fact that during
the medival times, which you assume this takes place in, sex wasnt
looked on as wrong as youd think and Romance was actually not as common.

Well, the ideas of love and romance at least was incredibly strong and popular during the early middle ages and even long before that, look at the center theme of a lot of the Roman and Greek tales (Helen as an example, depending on which version you look at). Exactly how the idea of romance translated into reality I'm not positive, marriage was mostly political for all classes throughout the middle ages and the various Renaissance and revolutionary eras, though there are tons of memories and stories which discuss their true loves outside of said marriages.

Not among the knights of the time which you are technically playing as, the whole "Knight in shining armor" were just fairytales created during the 1700's to create a sense of justice and happy ending to help stimulate good hope during the riots and repressive nature of the time.

[Bratt1204]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The thing is, I have something up on you. I've actually done the Alistair romance from start to finish a few times. I have a feeling you haven't done the Zevran one. Zevran as a romance partner would take on the world for you; one small step further than Alistair will. If you want to marry Alistair, you have to propose. If you don't harden him and keep him pliable and putting everyone ahead of him, yeh, he'll be content. Slavish even!

Edit: Really, I think most people who don't like Zevran never bother to get to know him and just are clueless about how playful he is.  They think OMG he wants to have sex with WYNNE!!!!!!!  He's such a pig!  Naw, he's smart, funny, and not for people lacking confidence! 

/facepalm

I just said I did the Zevran romance with MPCs 3 times start to finish. I like his romance I don't like him everyone doesn't like the same personality types. Its personal preference. That's not going to change. I'm perfectly valid in not liking him. There are playthroughs were I don't like Wynne, hell some where I don't like Alistair. (I think there was one were I actually liked Morrigan. ) . PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Both have their positives and negatives. Both are willing to fight for the PC. Ali is willing to DIE for the PC. So don't pretend as though one loves the PC less than the other. They both have intense love for the PC. All the LIs do.

Really people can not like character's and still see the good points in their interactions with the PC. Its not strictly one or the other you realize? I don't like Sten. I like the way he challenges the PC. I would like Morri if not for the way that the PC can not challenge her without sounding like an idiot.

Zev can be quite slavish himself. Truth be told the only non-slavish LI is Morri. (I love her and hate her at the same time. If only I could just back talk her! I'd be content!) 

Alistair will die for your PC.

Although I could never bring myself to allow him to do it.

[Sabriana]

Zevran offers himself up too, although in his playful way. He knows that the warden is in danger of dying, even before the warden does. What he (and the warden) doesn't know is that it *has* to be a GW who slays the archdemon. He vows to look out for the warden, and prevent her  untimely death, and it even gets a codex entry.

Btw, I don't hate Alistair. Not at all. My wardens even romance him up to a certain point. Just like for you, Alistair makes a poor romance for me. All a matter of tastes and preferences.

What the Zevranites don't agree with is that people claim Alistair is a knight in shining armor, flawless, devoted, and monogamous, and Zevran is just a sleaze-ball.
It is borne out by the game that Zevran is devoted to a fault, deeply in love, he proposes to the warden, and he doesn't have sex with anyone else unless the warden wants him to.

But so does Alistair.

Modifié par Sabriana, 09 avril 2010 - 04:18 .

[lordtrevas]

Sabriana wrote...

Zevran offers himself up too, although in his playful way. He knows that the warden is in danger of dying, even before the warden does. What he (and the warden) doesn't know is that it *has* to be a GW who slays the archdemon. He vows to look out for the warden, and prevent her  untimely death, and it even gets a codex entry.

Btw, I don't hate Alistair. Not at all. My wardens even romance him up to a certain point. Just like for you, Alistair makes a poor romance for me. All a matter of tastes and preferences.

What the Zevranites don't agree with is that people claim Alistair is a knight in shining armor, flawless, devoted, and monogamous, and Zevran is just a sleaze-ball.
It is borne out by the game that Zevran is devoted to a fault, deeply in love, he proposes to the warden, and he doesn't have sex with anyone else unless the warden wants him to.

But so does Alistair.

Hum...No. Alistair is the little crybaby, not the alpha male. Alistair would only find pity sex, not conquered sex. So, yeah. He can pretty much say he won't have it with anyone else, unless the PC says he can, because...He wouldn't, even if he tried.

[AlanC9]

Conquered sex? Dude, does that crap actually work where you're from?

[TheMadCat]

MrBoomba wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

but I kinda agree with how it is in DA:O due to the fact that during
the medival times, which you assume this takes place in, sex wasnt
looked on as wrong as youd think and Romance was actually not as common.

Well, the ideas of love and romance at least was incredibly strong and popular during the early middle ages and even long before that, look at the center theme of a lot of the Roman and Greek tales (Helen as an example, depending on which version you look at). Exactly how the idea of romance translated into reality I'm not positive, marriage was mostly political for all classes throughout the middle ages and the various Renaissance and revolutionary eras, though there are tons of memories and stories which discuss their true loves outside of said marriages.

Not among the knights of the time which you are technically playing as, the whole "Knight in shining armor" were just fairytales created during the 1700's to create a sense of justice and happy ending to help stimulate good hope during the riots and repressive nature of the time.

Eh? Those fairy tales and ideas have been around forvever. The various Arthurian Legends that originated in the late 11th or early 12th century such as Lancelot and Guinevere (12th century) or Tristan and Iseult (12th century), and about a dozen more stories that splintered from the folklore during the 13th-14th centuries. We can go back to Rome and Greece and look up tales similar in nature. Again though, it's reflection on the real world I'm not sure. Dante Alighieri would be the most famous example, I have a few books which contain nothing but translated memoirs from people in the era that show the notions of love and romance being prominent, one from a land owning knight in Champagne. But yeah, not sure where you're learning medieval history and culture but you may want to pick up a new source.

What the  in conquered sex lord trevas?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 09 avril 2010 - 05:17 .

[MrBoomba]

TheMadCat wrote...

MrBoomba wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

but I kinda agree with how it is in DA:O due to the fact that during
the medival times, which you assume this takes place in, sex wasnt
looked on as wrong as youd think and Romance was actually not as common.

Well, the ideas of love and romance at least was incredibly strong and popular during the early middle ages and even long before that, look at the center theme of a lot of the Roman and Greek tales (Helen as an example, depending on which version you look at). Exactly how the idea of romance translated into reality I'm not positive, marriage was mostly political for all classes throughout the middle ages and the various Renaissance and revolutionary eras, though there are tons of memories and stories which discuss their true loves outside of said marriages.

Not among the knights of the time which you are technically playing as, the whole "Knight in shining armor" were just fairytales created during the 1700's to create a sense of justice and happy ending to help stimulate good hope during the riots and repressive nature of the time.

Eh? Those fairy tales and ideas have been around forvever. The various Arthurian Legends that originated in the late 11th or early 12th century such as Lancelot and Guinevere (12th century) or Tristan and Iseult (12th century), and about a dozen more stories that splintered from the folklore during the 13th-14th centuries. We can go back to Rome and Greece and look up tales similar in nature. Again though, it's reflection on the real world I'm not sure. Dante Alighieri would be the most famous example, I have a few books which contain nothing but translated memoirs from people in the era that show the notions of love and romance being prominent, one from a land owning knight in Champagne. But yeah, not sure where you're learning medieval history and culture but you may want to pick up a new source.

What the  in conquered sex lord trevas?

Im not talking of greece and italy when basing off these observations, currently im in a fairytales class and im doing a paper on certain russian archetypes. The difference between the italian and german/russian culter is very vast and influences the whole romance factor. I personally have been speaking of this game being in the german/russian culture not of the italian/greece. perhaps this is were our facts differ? From these fairytales you can depict how the culture was in the time and im fairly certain german/russian culture wasnt big on romance, but instead more rushed romance than anything.