298 réponses à ce sujet

[keegdarv1]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


I was merely giving you my rationale for why I would never put her in command.  I feel that if Garrus had been in charge of the lazarus project then Wilson would either fall in line or be dead by the wayside.  He does have a good eye for character, something you would know if you didn't kill sidonis.  

And you do need military experience to lead a military squad.  Claiming otherwise is like saying because you read some books on the military you are somehow qualified to lead a military unit in Iraq or Afghanistan.  Would you as a civilian presume to know how to fight in a war without training?  That is what miranda is, a civilian with no military training whatsoever.  We may differ on her ability to lead but that fact is indisputable.

and yet he didnt see Sidonis until it was to late, but he would see Wilson? seeing someone betray you isnt a easy thing to see both Miranda and Garrus missed it, hell TIM didnt see it and its his job to see things and get imformation
 (side note if Garrus was in charge of the lazarus project Shepard would still be dead its not something he good at not his kind of leader ship role)

i didnt kill Sidonis and really the only reason he wont kill him is because of Shepard if Shepard wasnt thier his plan was to kill him maybe i dont see your point as his reading characters, because i say its more about his blindly loyal to Shepard and the fact the Shepard basically makes him and Garrus is lost without Shepard helping him one way or the other

but thier not a military squard, Normandy 1 was it was all military, Normandy 2 is full of Cerberus people that see Miranda as the leader of that Cell, and most of Shepards team arent military

what your mostly stating is Shepards job as thier leader, military training, motivational skills are Shepards biggest pluses

sure ill give you she got no military training, she a special op person with contacts across worlds, with a mind build to understand warefare if need be, does she have the in the field training for military unlikely sure, but really this mission isnt a military mission is more a special op of find and stop collectors(more a bit of both) TIM wouldnt give her the job his she wasnt the perfect one to fit the role

[CommanderAdriel]

Garrus is second in command for me.

[tonnactus]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Jacob. He may not be that interesting, but he's not stupid and I can't imagine him making any decisions that my Shepards would disagree with. My favorite squadmates aren't really ones that would excel as leaders. Can't imagine to many people would be happy taking orders from a Geth.

But legion should be definetly the best leader.All the shared experiences in the morning war.
Zaeed should also be a good leader, bit the developers decide that he isnt.
I dont know what Miranda ever accomplished to be a worth leader.Jacob is miles ahead in experience.

[Lacurazz1138]

my main man garrus

[wulf3n]

InvaderErl wrote...

And the ship was being badly beaten quickly. It wouldn't take a genius to take ONE look and see the ship was lost. He made a quick decision (30 seconds at most given the cutscene to send the beacon or thereabout - you said earlier there may have been a span of time that we didn't see but that's an assumption and there's no actual piece of evidence to support that idea) that helped to save the lives of his crew.

while i may have no "physical" evidence there are inconsistencies that point to a time lapse.

Why would shepard put on armour?, he never wears armour while on ship, unless he's about to go on mission, but where would he be going, when there current objective is to scout that sector looking for get. 
well i guess 30 seconds is more than enough time to put on a full suit of armour, then prep and launch a beacon.

You seem to be ignoring the most important part! the CO's job is to "COMMAND" not perform menial tasks any shipmate could do.

I'm not saying things would have been any different had Shepard been on the bridge, and I'm not saying the Beacon didn't save lives. 

InvaderErl wrote...
His being on the bridge would have contributed nothing to the battle since the Collector ship had clearly been lying in wait. Every second was critical and given the scenario he did more good sending the beacon than heading to the bridge to be informed of the obvious - that they were under attack and they would need to evacuate.

Ok...what systems/ship functions were active? what was the status of the crew? 

Because Shepard doesn't have ANY information he can't make informed decisions.
Shepard doesn't know that the FTL drives have been disabled!
  - he just guesses, and assumes they are. Abandoning ship is the first move every captain should make when they're under attack, that takes precedence over jumping to FTL and getting the **** out of there.
Shepard doesn't know that the weapons have been disabled!
 - The normandy is one of the most maneuverable ships in the galaxy, maybe you could try a counter attack...no abandoning ship is a much better option.
Shepard doesn't know the escape pods are functional
 - Everyone gets to the escape pods, and they're all destroyed or not functional...well that was a waste of valuable time.

Just because the right decisions wouldn't have affected the outcome much, (except that renshep would have seen how incompetent joker is at evasive maneuvers and left him to die) that doesn't mean the wrong decisions are ok.

[gangly369]

for me1 its wrex

for me2 its wrex

for me3 its wrex

[Little Paw]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 Who is it?  Mine is Garrus, he has the military and leadership experience to command the Normandy properly in my absence.  He knows that troops need motivation and discipline in order to work effectively.  He also knows that you can't have troops ignorant of the motivations of an operation, unlike a certain Assie voiced character.

Honestly, Miranda would be my last choice as Second in command.  Every peice of advice she gives you on the suicide mission gets someone killed, and from what we know about the Lazarus Project she has no idea what it means to motivate. 

If Garrus is with me on a mission then Joker/EDI will be in charge.  Joker is the motivation portion while EDI is the tactical portion.  Together they can be effective at leading.  Everyone else is either a loner or a poor leader.  Miranda is at the bottom.  If I'm gone and everyone else is dead, Miranda can't do any harm.

Garrus at first, but it became Legion.

[gangly369]

@ wulf3n

if you are so adamant about continuing this off topic discussion of yours, why dont you go and create a new topic place in the forum? It really has no reason for being here in THIS topic at all, seeing as all you're really talking about is Shephard, and this is suppose to be about his 'second in command'.

[Annihilator27]

Man if wrex was part of the squad it would be him, Heres hoping hes in for ME3. But **** garrus hands down. He helped you saved the galaxy twice and plenty of experience.

[tonnactus]

Major Truth wrote...

1. Miranda - experience of leading teams, cool, calm and collected with an excellent tactical knowledge. Will never let personal feelings hamper a mission

Miranda lost the whole cerberus space station, you remember?

[InvaderErl]

wulf3n wrote...


while i may have no "physical" evidence there are inconsistencies that point to a time lapse.

Why would shepard put on armour?, he never wears armour while on ship, unless he's about to go on mission, but where would he be going, when there current objective is to scout that sector looking for get. 
well i guess 30 seconds is more than enough time to put on a full suit of armour, then prep and launch a beacon.

You seem to be ignoring the most important part! the CO's job is to "COMMAND" not perform menial tasks any shipmate could do.

I'm not saying things would have been any different had Shepard been on the bridge, and I'm not saying the Beacon didn't save lives.

Shepard was wearing armor while en route to Eden Prime and they had no evidence whatsoever of a possible attack, they were just taking a precaution. Same goes for the start of 2, they are scouting for Geth (but with their stealth systems they weren't worried about detection) regardless Shep (and Ash) likely suited up as a precaution.

Yes, the menial task is only what saved the crew. Sending the beacon was more important than rushing to the bridge and telling Joker to get hit less.

wulf3n wrote...
Ok...what systems/ship functions were active? what was the status of the crew? 

Because Shepard doesn't have ANY information he can't make informed decisions.
Shepard doesn't know that the FTL drives have been disabled!
  - he just guesses, and assumes they are. Abandoning ship is the first move every captain should make when they're under attack, that takes precedence over jumping to FTL and getting the **** out of there.
Shepard doesn't know that the weapons have been disabled!
 - The normandy is one of the most maneuverable ships in the galaxy, maybe you could try a counter attack...no abandoning ship is a much better option.
Shepard doesn't know the escape pods are functional
 - Everyone gets to the escape pods, and they're all destroyed or not functional...well that was a waste of valuable time.

Just because the right decisions wouldn't have affected the outcome much, (except that renshep would have seen how incompetent joker is at evasive maneuvers and left him to die) that doesn't mean the wrong decisions are ok.

The Normandy is not a destroyer or a cruiser. Its a small stealth frigate. The ship's barriers had clearly been penetrated, the hull was breached and they were taking repeated fire.  If a enemy ship already has a bead on them and is firing and those shots are getting through it is over already. Shepard recognized this and took the smartest (and ultimately correct) course of action.

But hey how about this. There was a passage of time that we didn't see and Shepard contacted Joker and Joker told him the situation. I have no physical evidence that this occured but hey whatever, right?


I'll let this be my last post on the matter because as somebody else pointed out we've veered off-topic. I feel I've said what I wanted to in regards to this subject. If you want to make another post feel free, of course.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 07 avril 2010 - 11:44 .

[Gust4v]

Garrus.

[GuardianAngel470]

keegdarv1 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


I was merely giving you my rationale for why I would never put her in command.  I feel that if Garrus had been in charge of the lazarus project then Wilson would either fall in line or be dead by the wayside.  He does have a good eye for character, something you would know if you didn't kill sidonis.  

And you do need military experience to lead a military squad.  Claiming otherwise is like saying because you read some books on the military you are somehow qualified to lead a military unit in Iraq or Afghanistan.  Would you as a civilian presume to know how to fight in a war without training?  That is what miranda is, a civilian with no military training whatsoever.  We may differ on her ability to lead but that fact is indisputable.

and yet he didnt see Sidonis until it was to late, but he would see Wilson? seeing someone betray you isnt a easy thing to see both Miranda and Garrus missed it, hell TIM didnt see it and its his job to see things and get imformation
 (side note if Garrus was in charge of the lazarus project Shepard would still be dead its not something he good at not his kind of leader ship role)

i didnt kill Sidonis and really the only reason he wont kill him is because of Shepard if Shepard wasnt thier his plan was to kill him maybe i dont see your point as his reading characters, because i say its more about his blindly loyal to Shepard and the fact the Shepard basically makes him and Garrus is lost without Shepard helping him one way or the other

but thier not a military squard, Normandy 1 was it was all military, Normandy 2 is full of Cerberus people that see Miranda as the leader of that Cell, and most of Shepards team arent military

what your mostly stating is Shepards job as thier leader, military training, motivational skills are Shepards biggest pluses

sure ill give you she got no military training, she a special op person with contacts across worlds, with a mind build to understand warefare if need be, does she have the in the field training for military unlikely sure, but really this mission isnt a military mission is more a special op of find and stop collectors(more a bit of both) TIM wouldnt give her the job his she wasnt the perfect one to fit the role

Sidonis was an outside influence case.  Garrus had no reason or evidence to believe that the mercs had gotten to sidonis.  Wilson was selfish and he left clues all over the place.  At best he took money from the shadow broker but you could glean his greed from talking to him or listening to his logs that were on CERBERUS COMPUTERS.  At worst he was just spiteful and because miranda showed no interest in him he chose to destroy what she had worked so hard to accomplish.

Miranda had as many opportunities to notice Wilson's true colors as anyone should need to intervene, but she didn't.  Garrus had no way of knowing that the mercs had gotten to sidonis and Garrus trusted sidonis with his life.  It isn't his fault that Sidonis betrayed that trust.  Sidonis was a good person, just selfish.  Would you be willing to die to save your comrades?  I have never been faced with such a situation so I can't say myself, which is why I don't judge sidonis.

Miranda's special ops experience is negligible at best, nonexistent at worst.  We know of only one mission she has been on other than the Lazarus Project.  We don't know anything about it and so we can't make a judgement one way or the other about what kind of experience she has based on it.  That means that that mission cannot be counted when trying to establish her combat experience.  I don't trust anyone to be my second in command if they don't have leadership or military training.  She has neither, she is just TIM's lackey, doing exactly what he asks.  

I wouldn't trust her to lead just like I wouldn't trust Kasumi or Zaeed, Samara, Thane, Tali, Grunt, or Legion to lead.  They don't have military training and whether you like it or not this is a military operation.  Saving the Galaxy isn't something civilians do, it is what miltaries do.  You don't put someone in command becuase you like them, you do it because they are qualified.  Miranda has no qualifications that Garrus doesn't dwarf.  And because the crew don't trust her any one comes ahead of her on the leadership totem pole.  If the crew can't trust their leader then the entire operation can collapse.  The moment a bad order is given and the crew hesitate, people die.   

[wulf3n]

InvaderErl wrote...

I'll let this be my last post on the matter because as somebody else pointed out we've veered off-topic. I feel I've said what I wanted to in regards to this subject. If you want to make another post feel free, of course.

i would continue, but you seem to be ignoring the valid points i make, and focusing on the ones you have comebacks for.

[GuardianAngel470]

Little Paw wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 Who is it?  Mine is Garrus, he has the military and leadership experience to command the Normandy properly in my absence.  He knows that troops need motivation and discipline in order to work effectively.  He also knows that you can't have troops ignorant of the motivations of an operation, unlike a certain Assie voiced character.

Honestly, Miranda would be my last choice as Second in command.  Every peice of advice she gives you on the suicide mission gets someone killed, and from what we know about the Lazarus Project she has no idea what it means to motivate. 

If Garrus is with me on a mission then Joker/EDI will be in charge.  Joker is the motivation portion while EDI is the tactical portion.  Together they can be effective at leading.  Everyone else is either a loner or a poor leader.  Miranda is at the bottom.  If I'm gone and everyone else is dead, Miranda can't do any harm.

Garrus at first, but it became Legion.

Why legion?  He doesn't have the experience Jacob has, and he is a geth.  By definition he is less likely to be trusted than Jacob.  I'm not saying that I don't like legion or that her couldn't do the job well, just that he is almost as bad trust-wise as miranda.

[InvaderErl]

wulf3n wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I'll let this be my last post on the matter because as somebody else pointed out we've veered off-topic. I feel I've said what I wanted to in regards to this subject. If you want to make another post feel free, of course.

i would continue, but you seem to be ignoring the valid points i make, and focusing on the ones you have comebacks for.

When you make valid points worth responding to,  I'll let you know. Your argument assumes Shepard is unable to judge a situation by the ship being in flames all around with crew members getting tossed around by explosions.

With what is a small ship, already badly damaged he needs to get a comprehensive status report in order to decide "The Ship is Screwed."

Modifié par InvaderErl, 07 avril 2010 - 11:50 .

[wulf3n]

InvaderErl wrote...

With what is a small ship, already badly damaged he needs to get a comprehensive status report in order to decide "The Ship is Screwed."

No, to decide whether to flee, attack, evacuate.

Getting out of a battle is preferable to Abandoning a very expensive, experimental stealth frigate.

Abandoning ship is only a valid decision, when the escape pods are working.
Having one of the most maneuverable ships in the galaxy is a big advantage in a battle, despite its light frigate status.

"The Ship is Screwed" is not enough information to base any of these decisions off.

[Rodriguer2000]

Miranda and Garrus

[GuardianAngel470]

Umanix wrote...

I'm not sure why people keep saying "Garrus dun gone and got his team killed. Why would you want him in command?" as a point against Garrus' ability to command.

His team was lost because he wasn't there to coordinate them. That speaks highly of his leadership rather than against it. If he had utilized their skills poorly and got them killed as a result, then this argument would make sense. As it stands now...what? 

As for Miranda getting Jacob and Shepard out of the Cerberus facility while Garrus wasn't able to get himself out of Omega: Uh, you guys do remember that the mechs weren't just gunning for Shepard and Jacob but everyone else on the facility too, right? Garrus' situation is different. He's the only one left, and every merc is hoping for a chance to put a bullet in his head. Cerberus station: mech attention is divided. Archangel's base: attention is undivided. Completely different circumstances. 

That said, if I had to pick someone as an XO from Mass Effect 2, I'd either pick Jacob or Garrus. Miranda is a little too much of a loyalist to Cerberus for me to consider her seriously. She'll defer to TIM's judgment even if the evidence stacked against TIM is substantial (Collector "Ghost" Ship, anyone?). Jacob doesn't kowtow to TIM and makes it clear that he does what he feels is best regardless of persuasion. Garrus has had experience leading a small team effectively against mercenary muscle and is not in any way associated with Cerberus. 

I think the optimal choice for second in command for me would be Jacob--he keeps a relatively cool head, is more personable than Miranda, and is human. Seems like a good choice considering the crew is predominantly human--and I have no idea what most of their opinions regarding aliens are. Most everyone has a decent opinion of him, and the aliens that he "antagonizes" (Thane and unintentionally Tali) don't react noticeably to him. Certainly not enough to start something over it ala Jack and Miranda. 

Miranda can still do the paper work, though. 

You make a good argument for jacob and your argument is one of the reasons I believe Jacob would be my third in command (practically second as I take Garrus with me on missions much of the time).  Jacob as a Lieutenant in the alliance has the leadership and military training to make him suitable as a leader and he is also well regarded my much of the crew. 

I'm making the assumption that garrus was also an officer in the turian military, because most grunts can't be regarded as the best hand-to-hand specialist on the ship and grunts don't get targeted for spectre training.

After Jacob comes Joker/EDI as a dual leadership.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Garrus... or Legion, if he continues to behave, and Garrus goes off on his own again.

[LOLandStuff]

wulf3n wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

With what is a small ship, already badly damaged he needs to get a comprehensive status report in order to decide "The Ship is Screwed."

No, to decide whether to flee, attack, evacuate.

Getting out of a battle is preferable to Abandoning a very expensive, experimental stealth frigate.

Abandoning ship is only a valid decision, when the escape pods are working.
Having one of the most maneuverable ships in the galaxy is a big advantage in a battle, despite its light frigate status.

"The Ship is Screwed" is not enough information to base any of these decisions off.

Just forget the top of the ship was already a wreck from the first hit. I say, Shepard should have remained in his pajamas, get out of his room and go on the bridge, ordering everyone to take their post, among the flames and the explosions or in space. However, they really had to have a strong grip. Those who had nothing to do, just take on some tape and superglue to patch together the Normandy because THAT would be exactly the most logical thing to do with a super ship. Shepard shouldn't abandon ship, he'll go down with the ship proudly. And those who deserted, they should be court martialed and executed.

[Steel Dancer]

2 Viewpoints:

My Paragon FemShep Views both Miranda and Garrus as joint 2inCs - Miranda as 1st officer and Garrus as the XO - similar to the ways Ashley and Kaiden were treated in ME1.
 
One has a viewpoint from the heart (Garrus) and the other has a view thats based primarily on the facts (Miranda). Neither is right 100% of the time, but that's why Shepard is the one in overall command.

My Renegade FemShep simply regards Garrus as her 2inC, not trusting Miranda as far as she could throw 10 krogans in a bus.

[wulf3n]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Just forget the top of the ship was already a wreck from the first hit. I say, Shepard should have remained in his pajamas, get out of his room and go on the bridge, ordering everyone to take their post, among the flames and the explosions or in space. However, they really had to have a strong grip. Those who had nothing to do, just take on some tape and superglue to patch together the Normandy because THAT would be exactly the most logical thing to do with a super ship. Shepard shouldn't abandon ship, he'll go down with the ship proudly. And those who deserted, they should be court martialed and executed.

what happens when the escape pods get destroyed and you cant abandon? is ordering the entire crew to head to inoperative escape pods wise?

[LOLandStuff]

wulf3n wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

Just forget the top of the ship was already a wreck from the first hit. I say, Shepard should have remained in his pajamas, get out of his room and go on the bridge, ordering everyone to take their post, among the flames and the explosions or in space. However, they really had to have a strong grip. Those who had nothing to do, just take on some tape and superglue to patch together the Normandy because THAT would be exactly the most logical thing to do with a super ship. Shepard shouldn't abandon ship, he'll go down with the ship proudly. And those who deserted, they should be court martialed and executed.

what happens when the escape pods get destroyed and you cant abandon? is ordering the entire crew to head to inoperative escape pods wise?

Then that's just bad luck. But forget about the escapde pods, the ship is the most important. What, now you want to abandon the most expensive ship and let it be taken by unknown aliens for study? You go down with the ship, else you'll be charged with treason and desertion.
So, better go down as a hero than a traitor, at least it will spare you the humiliation of failing your duty.