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[Caldarin V]

Addai67 wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...
Especially since the Old Gods are inherently evil to begin with, unleashing one on the world sans the taint isn't much better

Only according to the Chantry.

But then why do they call to the Darkspawn if they aren't evil?

[Satanic Hamster]

dream_operator23 wrote...

leave forever and tell you never to follow her? She does this even if she loves you.  I always assume she has bad things planned because of this.  I don't know why she wouldn't want to have you around, or at least see you again sometimes unless she didn't want you to find out what she is going to do with your child.  That is my interpretation anyway.  What do you all think?

Keep in mind, she was raised by a crazy evil witch who was spent decades telling her that all men are scum/evil and was planning on murdering her.  You can't fix ALL her problems that quickly.  

[Sarah1281]

The darkspawn can hear their song but it probably isn't intentional. After all, they are all in a semi-permanent state of sleep. I actually think the Old Gods are to be pitied as the darkspawn hunt them down and taint them so they can serve as their little Blight-coordinator.

Whoever wins, kill the surviving woman and the baby

I can see an argument being made for killing Flemeth and Morrigan, but you're advocating baby killing?!?! This isn't a proven threat to Thedas, it's a baby. If you think that the uncorrupted soul of an Old God make it too dangerous to live, why in the world did you agree to create it in the first place? Risking future harm because you don't want yourself or Alistair to die can be seen as selfish but doing it and then killing a baby? How could you even begin to justify that?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 avril 2010 - 05:52 .

[Caldarin V]

that'd make sense too, but I still feel that if your Grey Warden is doing his/her duty, they won't take the bargain, since doing it the old fashioned way is the only way to make sure the Old God is purged

[Addai]

Caldarin V wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...
Especially since the Old Gods are inherently evil to begin with, unleashing one on the world sans the taint isn't much better

Only according to the Chantry.

But then why do they call to the Darkspawn if they aren't evil?

We don't know that they're "calling" anyone.  The codex says that the dragons may simply be hibernating.  But even if we accept the myth of the Maker and his curse on the old gods and assume they are trying to communicate with darkspawn, Tevinter mages, etc., that could simply be because they're imprisoned and want to be free.  Morrigan tells you that her ritual offers the chance for freedom, hers but also the old god's, and the chance to be free apart from the taint.

The point is that the Chantry has its version of events and there's no reason to take it as the actual truth.

[Masticetobbacco]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Whoever wins, kill the surviving woman and the baby

I can see an argument being made for killing Flemeth and Morrigan, but you're advocating baby killing?!?! This isn't a proven threat to Thedas, it's a baby. If you think that the uncorrupted soul of an Old God make it too dangerous to live, why in the world did you agree to create it in the first place? Risking future harm because you don't want yourself or Alistair to die can be seen as selfish but doing it and then killing a baby? How could you even begin to justify that?

Kill the baby before it becomes a bigger threat.

I couldn't let allistair sacrifice himself, Ferelden needed a leader that wasnt power hungry (Anora)
and I made 2 wardens with 2 different reasons. One was selfish.

The other one is part of my retarded mary sue fan fiction. His origin was that he came from another planet  (just a cheap story for my upcoming artwork ). And killing the archdemon was: "the story doesnt end here, not yet"

also another reason: The baby is a training dummy. It is a reason for my character to continue his adventures, level up, and build his party, all in preperation to fight this battle against the baby. Even the baby is not the real threat. Hes just a training dummy so my character is ready to fight the next archdemon or other darkspawn threat

[odiedragon]

MutantSpleen wrote...

I am wondering if the "demon" in Flemeth is actually the soul of an old god. (As she can turn into a high dragon.) Perhaps this was done in the past? Maybe she is trying to save the other old gods.

This is my suspicion as well, though I can't quite justify it in my head.  I think it would have been noted in the past, were other GW's to have survived killing the Archdemon.

My biggest question (and I may have my dates wrong) is: Didn't the whole Flemeth/Conobar/Osen thing happen about 400 years ago?  Wouldn't that put it right about the same time as the fourth Blight?

It also makes me wonder whether or not the Old Gods are gods at all, and if they're truly just really, really powerful demons.  Or maybe that's obvious and I'm just an idiot (the whole "find a malificar to have your demon baby" Alistair quip being the biggest "duh" that comes to mind)

Also, if Flemeth is an Old God, she's sure not doing much with her powers.  Living in a swamp, raising daughters to be her next host, and basically just existing?  Wouldn't a God/powerful demon want to do more than just exist?

[Addai]

dream_operator23 wrote...

But if her intentions are as innocent as just wanting an old god to be free (and also assuming that wanting such a thing wouldn't be bad), then why doesn't she just say so. Even better why doesn't she let you visit her from time to time. I can understand her leaving the country and not trusting the Chantry or most anyone else, but the Grey Warden she loves? Why can't he ever see her or the child again? Maybe the poster who said it has something to do with her mistrust of men is on to something, but I don't know. It just seems like her not wanting you around means something more than that was just the way she was raised.

I'm only 3/4ths or so through the Morrigan romance at the moment (100 Love and not going to the tent anymore), so my take on this could change.  But what I see Morrigan doing is trying to protect the Warden she has friended/ loved.   This god-baby thing is going to get complicated, and Flemeth will be hunting her, and after the Blight has ended people will start asking questions about the swamp witch you're in cahoots with.  Note that I'm not saying her behavior changes based on her approval or whether she's love with you- she always intended to do the ritual- it's just that I see her motivations changing and she is more conflicted when she trusts/likes/loves the Warden.

At the same time, I think her "don't follow me" changes when you're in a romance with her.  It seems to me that she is saying "don't follow me (but I secretly want you to)."  She gives you a ring that will likely enable you to find her, after all.

Full disclosure:  My bias is towards believing that Morrigan's god baby is going to save the world.  So I am more inclined to trust her and believe what she's doing is a good thing.  YMMV!

Modifié par Addai67, 07 avril 2010 - 07:51 .

[Sarah1281]

Kill the baby before it becomes a bigger threat.



I couldn't let allistair sacrifice himself, Ferelden needed a leader that wasnt power hungry (Anora)

and I made 2 wardens with 2 different reasons. One was selfish.

Sparing Loghain to feed him to the Archdemon would fall under metagaming but anyone who had paid any attention to Alistair at all when Loghain came up should know that he wouldn't be willing to serve with him, and so when Riordan suggested the option letting Loghain join keeps Alistair out of the battle and ensures that Anora won't be solo ruler.



And there really is a difference between just being selfish and creating a child for the sole purpose of killing it when it's still a baby.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

i know she wants to keep the soul of a old god maybe to control the darkspawn? because they do answer the call of the gods maybe its not only just the tainted gods maybe all the tevinter gods souls call out to the darkspawn that could mean she wants to control the darkspawn and raise a army but if that happens the ill be sure to take care of her.

[Zeleen]

Caldarin V wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...
Especially since the Old Gods are inherently evil to begin with, unleashing one on the world sans the taint isn't much better

Only according to the Chantry.

But then why do they call to the Darkspawn if they aren't evil?

The tainted old god speaks to the darkspawn not the "un-tainted" old gods

Modifié par Zeleen, 07 avril 2010 - 08:10 .

[Sarah1281]

But the Old Gods aren't tainted until the darkspawn find them and the darkspawn search for them and end up tainting them because the Old Gods call out to them.

[Addai]

Zeleen wrote...
The tainted old god speaks to the darkspawn not the "un-tainted" old gods

Well, the "song" comes from the imprisoned old gods and that draws the darkspawn, or so people think.  When the darkspawn find them, they taint them and then the old god becomes an archdemon and begins talking to the horde and directing it.  But you could interpret the song as communication, too.

[Xandurpein]

Whatever reason Morrigan has to leave you and never to return it must be independant on whether she loves the PC or not as she will do this no matter what her feelings for the PC. I take it that if Morrigan really loves the PC she will feel some regret at how things turns out, but not enough to dissuade her from her goal.

I'm not sure I think that would be a good idea to see more of Morrigan. I like the bittersweet end and the mystery, My hope is however that if we see Morrigan again then they will not force a canon ending on us.

Imagine for example that a female character choosing between convincing Alistair, who she loves, to do the Dark ritual and see either of them dead. Imagine that she decides to refuse Morrigan, only to see Alistair out of love sacrifice himself despite her protests and then have the whole moment made totally meaningless because she has a canon forced on her saying Alistair slept with Morrigan anyway. It would be totally unacceptable really.

I used to think that exploring the God child was a cool thing for a future game, but now I think that the issue is really a no go for future games as it would mean that you potentially walk all over some players most emotional moments in the game.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 avril 2010 - 09:28 .

[Master Shiori]

Addai67 wrote...

dream_operator23 wrote...

But if her intentions are as innocent as just wanting an old god to be free (and also assuming that wanting such a thing wouldn't be bad), then why doesn't she just say so. Even better why doesn't she let you visit her from time to time. I can understand her leaving the country and not trusting the Chantry or most anyone else, but the Grey Warden she loves? Why can't he ever see her or the child again? Maybe the poster who said it has something to do with her mistrust of men is on to something, but I don't know. It just seems like her not wanting you around means something more than that was just the way she was raised.

I'm only 3/4ths or so through the Morrigan romance at the moment (100 Love and not going to the tent anymore), so my take on this could change.  But what I see Morrigan doing is trying to protect the Warden she has friended/ loved.   This god-baby thing is going to get complicated, and Flemeth will be hunting her, and after the Blight has ended people will start asking questions about the swamp witch you're in cahoots with.  Note that I'm not saying her behavior changes based on her approval or whether she's love with you- she always intended to do the ritual- it's just that I see her motivations changing and she is more conflicted when she trusts/likes/loves the Warden.

At the same time, I think her "don't follow me" changes when you're in a romance with her.  It seems to me that she is saying "don't follow me (but I secretly want you to)."  She gives you a ring that will likely enable you to find her, after all.

Full disclosure:  My bias is towards believing that Morrigan's god baby is going to save the world.  So I am more inclined to trust her and believe what she's doing is a good thing.  YMMV!

I think you're pretty much spot on here.

During her farewell speech at Denerim's gates, there is the option of asking her to reconsider and stay with you.
Morrigan puts on a truly pained expresion and replies: "Tis tempting.. more then you can possibly know. But that would not be wise."

So yes, I believe that she is trying to protect you by going away, regardless of how much it pains her to do so.

[UrsulaCousland]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...

that'd make sense too, but I still feel that if your Grey Warden is doing his/her duty, they won't take the bargain, since doing it the old fashioned way is the only way to make sure the Old God is purged

But the PC is no longer a Grey Warden after awakening

Actually, you are...unless you know of some way to undo the Joining...you may not be on 'active duty', but you're still a Warden.

[Dessalines]

1)I do not think Morrigan plans to do something evil with the child. I just think that she realizes it will be safer to live apart from society. There are way too many reasons to list showing that she cares for the Warden be it as a friend or a lover., and she regrets this is how she leaves you.



2) I believe the reason why you can't see the baby is because it will be too dangerous for her, the baby, and you. The wardens will probably want the baby dead. The chantry will want the baby dead, and Morrigan dead for practicing blood magic. I am thinking you really can't hide for long with the only Warden that survived a Blight as your companion. I am thinking that might make people even more suspicious. I believe her destiny is bigger than the Blight.



3) I think we will see Morrigan again. I might be reading into things, but wasn't Oghren's darkspawn dream about Morrigan's baby?

[Master Shiori]

I don't think her intentions concerning the child are evil either.

I am however curious about the Awakening epilogue which seems to see the Warden leave for Orlais regardless of what they decided to do in Origins.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 09 avril 2010 - 08:00 .

[Alyka]

sylvanaerie wrote...
There is the whole Flemeth angle too.  Is Morrigan doing her mother's bidding or is she operating on her own when she tells the PC not to follow her?  Too many what ifs and Flemeth being an immortal has too many centuries to plan whatever she does AND she seems to have the gift of precognition.  (She didn't seem at all surprised to see my PC confronting her at her hut in the middle of the game sans Morrigan).  What if ALL of this was a plan to get Flemeth an Old God soul/body whatever so she won't have to possess Morrigan.  And if Morrigan still planned on using the child for self preservation she wouldn't want you knowing she was going to hand it over to Flemeth.  Or perhaps she was attempting to run and hide with the baby to use for her own purposes (she DOES have Flemeth's grimoire now assuming you did Morrigan's companion quest). 

Or, she might have lied to Morrigan about the ritual so that way the Old God possesses Morrigan and then Flemeth can possess her.

GehnTheGrey wrote...
It is also said that to become a member of the Dragon Cult, you must imbibe the Blood of a Dragon, and that this almost always causes a physical change in the individual. Morrigan's eyes have been a possible suggestion as to her change.

Kolgrim's eyes don't look different.Then again, maybe it effects everyone differently.Remember, Morrigan was born to Flemeth who is possessed by a demon. That may be why her eyes look different.

odiedragon wrote...
Also, if Flemeth is an Old God, she's sure not doing much with her powers.  Living in a swamp, raising daughters to be her next host, and basically just existing?  Wouldn't a God/powerful demon want to do more than just exist?

A perfect place to get lost in.She may also be biding her time until the blights have ended so she or Morrigan can start an uprising for mages who's leader is an abomination/possessed by an Old God, or a child who is born with the soul of an Old God.

Addai67 wrote...
Well, the "song" comes from the imprisoned old gods and that draws the darkspawn, or so people think.  When the darkspawn find them, they taint them and then the old god becomes an archdemon and begins talking to the horde and directing it.  But you could interpret the song as communication, too.

When you go to Flemeth's hut to slay her she says:
"Lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune. Such enchanting music she plays, wouldn't you say?"
I wonder if that's a hint to either her or Morrigan that they have something to do with the Old God/archdemon.

Modifié par Alyka, 09 avril 2010 - 08:39 .

[Master Shiori]

Flemeth definitely loves to manipulate people.



I'm not sure how much of what she says during Morrigan's quest can be taken at face value, but my character got the impression she was just trying plant the seeds of doubt in his mind.