25 réponses à ce sujet

[JustValiant]

 Since Dragon Wars: Origins is set in a dark fantasy setting, it surely would be interesting and inspiring to know which dark fantasy books do users and creators like and love...

I make the start with Karl Edward Wagner's epic saga of Kane, the fantasy version of the biblic brother-murderer.
A great anti-hero... 

[Maria Caliban]

I'll start with a Song of Ice and Fire, as someone ought to say it, even though I find it overrated.

The First Law (trilogy) and Best Served Cold (stand alone) are excellent.

Black Company series by Glen Cook was dark fantasy back when it wasn't popular.

Micheal Moor****'s Elric short stories are being anthologized, and are a must for anyone interested in the genre.

Edit: stupid auto filter. The asteriked word there is a term for roosters or a man's penis.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 octobre 2009 - 04:20 .

[Ardonia]

Its Dragon Age Origins an dont forget the High Fantasy elements and picture having your own dragon to ride into battle like the inheritance cycle.

[Sword For Hire]

there are two dragon age novels out right now i think, one is listed at the top of the general discussion page, The calling

it has a spoiler tag, that's why i missed it initially

[Maria Caliban]

They're not dark fantasy though. At least The Stolen Throne isn't.

[danien.grey]

Kushiel's Legacy by Jacqueline Carey comes to mind. One of my favourite Dark Fantasy settings, but it's not for the prude or squeamish, because it contains a great deal of human sexuality. Indeed, the primary tenet of the series' religion is "Love as thou wilt". Great writing, and very absorbing characters.

[Maria Caliban]

Kushiel Legacy isn't dark fantasy. Or even close.

[Arlana Tabris]

"The Witcher" saga by Andrzej Sapkowski. Though, I don't know if the translations are as good as the original.

And I agree with Maria Caliban - the Black Company series by Glen Cook.

Modifié par Arlana Tabris, 19 octobre 2009 - 05:44 .

[danien.grey]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kushiel Legacy isn't dark fantasy. Or even close.

That depends on your interpretation of Dark Fantasy.  If you mean to define it as simply High Fantasy combined with horror, then no, a lot of work will not fall under that category.  My own definition isn't as strict.  The Kushiel's series has a people decended from angels, living in a world that is based on Earth.  Anything not established as a planet Earth or our true Space setting can be classified as a Fantastical location.

Given that the series offers a world where the moral lines are shades of grey rather than black and white, the world is not real, but based on the writer's imagination, and magic is lower key, but still present in the world...does that not constitute a dark fantasy setting?

Note that while it's true you could try to classify Kushiel's legacy under the Low Fantasy subgenre, that would require it to take place in our real world today (or at least have a portal).  Seeing as how this is not true, I've always classified it under Dark Fantasy.

Oh, and yes, you should definitely read The Black Company.  Hey it even fits into Dragon Age's idea of Origins.  I can't really recall anything before Glen Cook that would be well known Dark Fantasy.

Modifié par danien.grey, 19 octobre 2009 - 07:13 .

[lordstanton]

I recommend The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks.



He is an amazing writer with a writing style that just makes you feel so very sorry for the main characters and so very happy that you aren't them.

[soteria]

danien.grey wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kushiel Legacy isn't dark fantasy. Or even close.

That depends on your interpretation of Dark Fantasy.  If you mean to define it as simply High Fantasy combined with horror, then no, a lot of work will not fall under that category.  My own definition isn't as strict.  The Kushiel's series has a people decended from angels, living in a world that is based on Earth.  Anything not established as a planet Earth or our true Space setting can be classified as a Fantastical location.

Given that the series offers a world where the moral lines are shades of grey rather than black and white, the world is not real, but based on the writer's imagination, and magic is lower key, but still present in the world...does that not constitute a dark fantasy setting?

Note that while it's true you could try to classify Kushiel's legacy under the Low Fantasy subgenre, that would require it to take place in our real world today (or at least have a portal).  Seeing as how this is not true, I've always classified it under Dark Fantasy.

Oh, and yes, you should definitely read The Black Company.  Hey it even fits into Dragon Age's idea of Origins.  I can't really recall anything before Glen Cook that would be well known Dark Fantasy.

I haven't read the books, but from the descriptions I've heard, they certainly don't sound dark.  Also, dark fantasy doesn't have to be high or low.  I'm not even sure I would call "dark fantasy" a subgenre, to be honest.  To me "dark" is just a descriptive word to use for a certain style or tone of story.

[daem3an]

Steven Erikson

R. Scott Bakker

Richard Morgan's The Steel Remains

Robert E. Howard

Joe Abercrombie

[M_arc]

Try some manga for a change!



I promise you that the manga's Berserk and Claymore are more dark then all of the books mentioned here together!

[Ralsar]

Ah I had The Black Company books in my hands at the book store the other day. Almost bought it, guess I should of!

[MikeSunrider]

George RR Martin's SoIaF isn't Dark Fantasy though. It just has rape and gruesome murdering and really great characters and intrigue. Dark Fantasy for me is more likewhatever Lovecraft used to write.
Although Martin has written certain short stories that qualified as 'Dark' they kinda leaned more towards Sci-fi.

I must recommend Robert E Howard's Conan anthology though. Heavy on Sword and sorcery with a mix of Dark in it.

Though it seems these labels do not make any sense.

Modifié par MikeSunrider, 20 octobre 2009 - 12:18 .

[danien.grey]

soteria wrote...

I haven't read the books, but from the descriptions I've heard, they certainly don't sound dark.  Also, dark fantasy doesn't have to be high or low.  I'm not even sure I would call "dark fantasy" a subgenre, to be honest.  To me "dark" is just a descriptive word to use for a certain style or tone of story.

Well like I said it's still open to interpretation. 

[spoiler, highlight to read]

For example, the protagonist is actually a sadomaschoist, and enjoys pain.  There are several poignant scenes where flagellation (whipping) with blood occurs, followed by what could be viewed as rape.  At end of the first book, she actually gets partially skinned alive.  It's up to you whether that's considered dark though.

[end of spoiler]

Actually I've been meaning to get my hands on the Night Angel trilogy; it's gotten good reviews from what I've heard.  However, it will probably have to wait until after I'm done Dragon Age.  I don't want any distractions, lol.

Modifié par danien.grey, 20 octobre 2009 - 12:31 .

[Sword For Hire]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fantasy I'm having thoughts on dark fantasy
and i found this

Modifié par Sword For Hire, 20 octobre 2009 - 12:51 .

[soteria]

Sword For Hire wrote...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fantasy I'm having thoughts on dark fantasy
and i found this

From that article:

Dark fantasy has yet to be solidly connected to its own particular subgenre of fantasy. Stories often described by some as dark fantasy may be placed by others in either the horror or fantasy genres, based on which genre the story tends more toward. As a natural consequence, the term itself may refer collectively to tales that would more properly belong in very different genres.

And of course, the article contradicts itself at various times in different sections.  I think what we can take from that is what we're already seeing in this thread:  society doesn't have any agreed-upon definition for "dark fantasy."

MikeSunrider, it's not exactly the rape and violence that make me call A Song of Ice and Fire dark fantasy, it's the overall grim tone.  "Good guys" are as likely to die as "bad guys," or even more so.  Like I said, unlike others and despite the wikipedia article, I don't consider "dark" even a subgenre.  It's just a word I'd use to describe a book, like Gone with the Wind or Tess of the D'Urbervilles.  I think those are both considered romances, but I'd also call them dark, and not because of vivid descriptions of rape and violence.

[CanadianGuy1975]

Could always go for the classic Macbeth.

[Sword For Hire]

StarMarine wrote...

 Since Dragon Wars: Origins is set in a dark fantasy setting, it surely would be interesting and inspiring to know which dark fantasy books do users and creators like and love...

I make the start with Karl Edward Wagner's epic saga of Kane, the fantasy version of the biblic brother-murderer.
A great anti-hero... 

     But for me to finally answer the original poster's question, I enjoy Dark Fantasy, if that is indeed what im reading (haha).  Now the novels i read might be low brow or books for teens, i don't know what is proper reading material these days and i don't want to be lynched for reading them and not others i know nothing about.  Feel free to offer suggestions though, I try to keep an open mind although I'm kinda biased against modernish harry potter books.  I think i first got exposed to non dark fantasy with the Hobbit by J.R.R Tolkien which led to The Lord of The Rings (I don't think that was dark fantasy either ).  Then things took a natural direction to the popular forgotten realm novels, which i read 2 or 3 books of what caught my eye at the time.

     Perhaps fate or chance, eventually things took a darker twist when i picked up my first novel published by the Black Library, which so happened to be a warhammer fantasy novel. (not the 40k novels)(their new site is under construction so they have a crappy temporary one up right now with non of the older books so I can not link them yet)  These books all take place in the grim world of warhammer but in different settings with different characters and some that I have read did not end with a happy ending(evil winning over good & or characters dieing off).I have been reading these novels for a while now and almost had the complete collection.  I kept buying them until my life got ruined by mmorpgs (which i quit cold turkey finally, I hope) and now my collection is incomplete.  If the main site comes back up i might be able read all the ones i missed and complete my collection by using my holiday gift cards i have amassed over the years . 

In recent development though, another book has been released for the Gotrek & Felix series and although that series within black library warhammer novels isn't really dark dark fantasy (because non of the main characters die and they always prevail) I still follow it and its interesting to read.  You wonder wtf they will do next or what destruction will follow them, who's plans will they foil?  The series alone keeps you interested, but all the books other then Gotrek & Felix are different from each other.

So yeah thats what I read
I left out the combat, blood and sexual themes along with political intrigue, i assumed that was a given.  Again, if you know something similar, feel free to expand my horizons.

Modifié par Sword For Hire, 20 octobre 2009 - 02:35 .

[soteria]

Sword For Hire, don't ever let anyone give you flak for your choices in reading material. If they do, give them the same response I give to posers who say things like, "You drink THAT!? Real men drink this." My response is that real men drink whatever the heck they feel like drinking... "proper reading material these days" is what you enjoy reading, not what everyone else thinks everyone else should enjoy reading.



As for recommendations, I'm afraid someone else will have to help you. I'm surprisingly (to me, at least) poorly versed in fantasy writing.

[MikeSunrider]

MikeSunrider, it's not exactly the rape and violence that make me call A Song of Ice and Fire dark fantasy, it's the overall grim tone.  "Good guys" are as likely to die as "bad guys," or even more so.  Like I said, unlike others and despite the wikipedia article, I don't consider "dark" even a subgenre.  It's just a word I'd use to describe a book, like Gone with the Wind or Tess of the D'Urbervilles.  I think those are both considered romances, but I'd also call them dark, and not because of vivid descriptions of rape and violence.

 

Oh I think you have the best solution for the genre fiesta. Personally, I just consider A Song of Ice and Fire Epic fantasy if we go by the labels and his whole shtick of killing off main characters adds to the intrigue instead of the darkness of it (again for me personally). The whole rape and violence thing for me symbols the fact that in that book, no one is really save.

@Sword for Hire

I agree with Soteria. Just read what you enjoy reading. (As long as it's not Eragon )  
Also, I recommend the Malazan Book of the Fallen serie. It is perhaps of a bit higher grade than what you're reading now in terms of story-telling meaning that it isn't really a pick-up and go pulp writing-type story. It demands investment.

The Conan anthology by Robert E Howard however, has an abundance of fantastic short stories that I reckon are in the same vein as the gotrex and felix stories. You might eventually grow tired of the way he always describes the lithe women with voloptuous bodies though. There's one in every short story hehe. But overall great action and fun stories.

Modifié par MikeSunrider, 20 octobre 2009 - 11:58 .

[MrGOH]

The First Law Trilogy, though it's particular brand of Dark Fantasy is particularly meta; it's a very entertaining deconstruction of fantasy tropes that feels like such deconstruction was as much a part of the author's conscious project as the entertaining story.



I also recommend R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy - it's an atheist's take on Tolkien-esque worldbuilding with Frank Herbert's sense of the epigrammatic. It is quite cynical about human nature, especially regarding the disparity between humans' capacity for rational thought and the rarity with which such capacity is exercised.



Both series feature quality writing heads and shoulders above the run-of-the-mill fantasy novels. Avercrombie's style is a bit cleaner than Bakker's, and may at times seem thin or simplistic - this is usually in the service of his greater critique of fantasy writing and writings in general. Bakker is plagued by the weight of his discursive and sometimes pedantic style; he, like Tolkien and Herbert, cannot resist expounding on his ideas at the expense of the narrative's easy flow.