90 réponses à ce sujet

[Cat Lance]

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...

yes, all the origins had reason to make the choice of not dying. But are you really that integral to the story? I think not. The fact that there are so many origins is proof enough for me that you arent trully that important. The story would most likely be the same had Duncan been sent to the tower of ishal with Alistair, or had he gone with you to the kokari wilds. I know you decide how everything goes. But it feels forced to me. Even morrigan comments on this at one point. How alistair lets you lead and how he is the senior grey warden.

I wont argue that in the end its you who are the main character, but it felt to me that had the game not been a "choose your own adventure" RPG Alistair would have been the main character.

Your origin doesn't make you important. It's like someone said above about Ali would have been the main character if he had a backbone. It's the fact that your warden steps up to the plate making the decisions and taking the actions that need to be that make him/her the main character of the story.

[SRWill64]

Xandurpein wrote...

The thing you need to realize about Alistair is that no character in the game is really more affected by the player than him. You as player litteraly hold Alistairs fate in your hand. Alistair can be the beloved King who unifies a divided country or he can be an inconsequential dropout. Either outcome is a much the truth as the other. It all depends on the players choices. That is why people never can agree on Alistair's character. We all play differently, and because of that see different versions of who 'he really is'.

At the same time Alistair really isn't strictly needed for any outcome, except to continue Maric's bloodline one more generation, before it probably dies out anyway. It's really up to your perception if you think this makes Alistair the star or a puppet, or even both, at least in my opinion.

Poor Alistair has never had a choice about how his life was to be. Being the bastard of a king and sent to the Chantry, then being conscripted into the Wardens (though Alistair didn't mind that), then being forced into a position he has to take the throne...or having his fellow Warden betray him. It sucks to be him.

[blacqout]

errant_knight wrote...

blacqout wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

Trintrin86 wrote...

I agree, I think Alistair would have done very well for himself eventually if your PC hadn't been there. Alistair is somewhere between 19-35 in this game? Has been told his entire life that the best he'll ever be is a good follower? Of course he's terrified. His speech to the army before the siege of Denerim is all the proof I need that eventually, he would have emerged as a leader in his own right.

I do hope that in a further expansion or in a future game we get a little more Alistair, particularly one who has been king for awhile and we get to see how that's matured him. But not too mature... cheesy jokes!

Let's do the math for his age...
Maric allowed the Wardens back into Ferelden 20 years prior to DA:O. Maric died before Alistair's mother did. Alistair's mother died shortly after his birth...that's why Goldanna blames him for killing their mother. Even if Maric died immediately after allowing the Wardens back into Ferelden and Alistair's mother died shortly after, that would make Alistair's maximum possible age 21. If Maric didn't die shortly after allowing the Wardens back into Ferelden, it would make Alistair younger than 21, not older!
Why does everyone not pay attention to the clues in the game?

Well, while some would agree with you, I'm afraid I can't. Just look at the guy. That's just not a 21 year old in my opinion.

In my opinion he looks about 19. He acts about 19.
And if you doubt the timeline I described...look at the history of the Grey Wardens in the game, and King Maric. It's all there.

King Maric was Allistair's father, no?

If you recruit Loghian, after speaking to him for a while he says something to the effect of "Maric nearly did take Allistair in".  Maric didn't die before Allistair's birth.

Oh, wow, that's really interesting! Thanks for the info!

I'm sorry. Some of us have lives outside of the game and this forum. You might spend enough time here to know everything there is to know about Dragon Age, but i certainly do not.

My comment was relevant to the conversation, and to quote some random mage... your glibness does you no credit.

[errant_knight]

blacqout wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

blacqout wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

Trintrin86 wrote...

I agree, I think Alistair would have done very well for himself eventually if your PC hadn't been there. Alistair is somewhere between 19-35 in this game? Has been told his entire life that the best he'll ever be is a good follower? Of course he's terrified. His speech to the army before the siege of Denerim is all the proof I need that eventually, he would have emerged as a leader in his own right.

I do hope that in a further expansion or in a future game we get a little more Alistair, particularly one who has been king for awhile and we get to see how that's matured him. But not too mature... cheesy jokes!

Let's do the math for his age...
Maric allowed the Wardens back into Ferelden 20 years prior to DA:O. Maric died before Alistair's mother did. Alistair's mother died shortly after his birth...that's why Goldanna blames him for killing their mother. Even if Maric died immediately after allowing the Wardens back into Ferelden and Alistair's mother died shortly after, that would make Alistair's maximum possible age 21. If Maric didn't die shortly after allowing the Wardens back into Ferelden, it would make Alistair younger than 21, not older!
Why does everyone not pay attention to the clues in the game?

Well, while some would agree with you, I'm afraid I can't. Just look at the guy. That's just not a 21 year old in my opinion.

In my opinion he looks about 19. He acts about 19.
And if you doubt the timeline I described...look at the history of the Grey Wardens in the game, and King Maric. It's all there.

King Maric was Allistair's father, no?

If you recruit Loghian, after speaking to him for a while he says something to the effect of "Maric nearly did take Allistair in".  Maric didn't die before Allistair's birth.

Oh, wow, that's really interesting! Thanks for the info!

I'm sorry. Some of us have lives outside of the game and this forum. You might spend enough time here to know everything there is to know about Dragon Age, but i certainly do not.

My comment was relevant to the conversation, and to quote some random mage... your glibness does you no credit.

Are you talking to me? Because I wasn't being glib....

[blacqout]

Oh. Woops. I don't know why, but i was sure you were being sarcastic. English isn't my first language, so i'll blame it on that.



I am really sorry.

[Vicious]

Alistair IS the hero of DAO if the PC doesn't exist. Go look at the comic David Gaider wrote. Morrigan prepositions Alistair directly. No PC required.

If Alistair were man enough to do everything [and he is, but requires hardening which the death of Duncan SHOULD have done instead of meeting some stupid sister] then the PC is redundant.

Which is why The Warden is not a hero which you can build sequels out of. He can not exist and everything would have worked out anyway.

think about it: Alistair is the bastard son of a legendary king with a legendary bloodline, has knightly training, is the most experienced surviving Grey Warden, can become King of Ferelden, ETC.


And to top it all off, [ The ORLESIAN WARDEN in Awakenings comes from a world where the original protagonist DID NOT EXIST and Alistair WAS man enough to do everything on his own. This is the only viable explanation since The Ultimate Sacrifice is not a supported ending.


IMO The Warden is ultimately one of Bioware's weakest characters in terms of development over the course of the adventure. And not because Alistair steals the show [he really doesn't.] but just because he's not particularly interesting.

Modifié par Vicious, 11 avril 2010 - 01:20 .

[errant_knight]

blacqout wrote...

Oh. Woops. I don't know why, but i was sure you were being sarcastic. English isn't my first language, so i'll blame it on that.

I am really sorry.

Heh, no problem. There's enough sarcasm around here that I can see you making that mistake.  My sarcasm isn't that dry or subtle, though. Since I never play Loghain, that was entirely new information to me, and probably to a lot of people.

[errant_knight]

Vicious wrote...

Alistair IS the hero of DAO if the PC doesn't exist. Go look at the comic David Gaider wrote. Morrigan prepositions Alistair directly. No PC required.

If Alistair were man enough to do everything [and he is, but requires hardening which the death of Duncan SHOULD have done instead of meeting some stupid sister] then the PC is redundant.

Which is why The Warden is not a hero which you can build sequels out of. He can not exist and everything would have worked out anyway.

think about it: Alistair is the bastard son of a legendary king with a legendary bloodline, has knightly training, is the most experienced surviving Grey Warden, can become King of Ferelden, ETC.


And to top it all off, [ The ORLESIAN WARDEN in Awakenings comes from a world where the original protagonist DID NOT EXIST and Alistair WAS man enough to do everything on his own. This is the only viable explanation since The Ultimate Sacrifice is not a supported ending.


IMO The Warden is ultimately one of Bioware's weakest characters in terms of development over the course of the adventure. And not because Alistair steals the show [he really doesn't.] but just because he's not particularly interesting.

While I agree with you for the most part, I think your assesment of the PC is more harsh than is warranted. The PC is who you make him/her. The character is developed through roleplay and really exists in your own mind, rather than being predefined by the game. It's a character who's defined uniquely by each player. That's what makes Dragon Age more of a true roleplaying game than Mass Effect2. You can't really roleplay Mass Effect because the character is too developed to give you that control. You don't create Sheppard, you just push the character toward choices. In Dragon Age, everything about the character is open to your imagination.

[Vicious]

I think your assesment of the PC is more harsh than is warranted.

I disagree. Please read on!

The PC is who you make him/her. The character is developed through roleplay and really exists in your own mind, rather than being predefined by the game.

I completely agree! I simply see this as a big weakness - the character is not required to exist for the overarching story to be completed. Since the character *IS* defined by the player, that basically means that he/she cannot be entered into the overall lore since The Warden by his very nature is a nebulous character, could be good, evil, or anything, but nothing concrete can be made out of them UNLESS IT IS TAKEN OUT OF THE PLAYER'S HANDS and Bioware creates it's own canon, which automatically steps on the player's toes.



It really makes The Warden weaker overall since he/she can never be heavily documented on or run into in further installments of the series, while one might see Alistair/Morrigan/Loghain again, The Warden is readily replaceable because HE COULD BE ANYTHING! HE COULD EVEN NOT EXIST AT ALL!



Even Baldur's Gate who featured a silent protagonist had SOME characterization of the hero! In BG1 you were rewarded by being polite to everyone in conversations and punished for being rude or snarky. In BG2 you could be as snarky, rude, or brusque as you wanted and people usually bent to your will. And in ToB either everyone referred to what a badass you were or you espoused it yourself, though it was not forced on the player, rather it was a natural progression based on how they changed through the series.

That's what makes Dragon Age more of a true roleplaying game than Mass Effect2. You can't really roleplay Mass Effect because the character is too developed to give you that control. You don't create Sheppard, you just push the character toward choices. In Dragon Age, everything about the character is open to your imagination.

True indeed, and it is that very reason that 'The Warden' is not sequel material. You may enjoy it, but I am disappointed since I would have liked to play as him again, but Awakenings made me realize just how fragile and ultimately inconsequential The Warden's role truly is.





If Alistair *WAS* the last Warden, does anyone REALLY think he wouldn't rise to the challenge? If one knows anything about Alistair's character, yes he was an insufferable good guy and his jokes were a mixed bag, but in the end the guy could rise to the challenges presented.





I don't even like him and I can accept that he was FAR more important and instrumental to the story than the 'Walking Plot Device' AKA 'The Warden.







one moment that sticks out to me is this. Alistair for plot reasons defers to 'The Hero' for leadership, but if the hero threatens the Revered Mother in Lothering, he goes RIGHT OVER THE HERO'S HEAD and solves the problem [recruiting Sten] with some VERY impassioned dialogue, which is something the hero is unable to do.





I digressed and I apologize. But I feel The Warden's nebulous character traits [since as said it is based on the imagination of the player] are what disqualifies him from being a returning or franchise hero... well... ever.

[errant_knight]

Vicious wrote...

One moment that sticks out to me is this. Alistair for plot reasons defers to 'The Hero' for leadership, but if the hero threatens the Revered Mother in Lothering, he goes RIGHT OVER THE HERO'S HEAD and solves the problem [recruiting Sten] with some VERY impassioned dialogue, which is something the hero is unable to do.


I digressed and I apologize. But I feel The Warden's nebulous character traits [since as said it is based on the imagination of the player] are what disqualifies him from being a returning or franchise hero... well... ever.

He does? I'm going to have to try that! My characters aren't the type to threaten old women, so I've never tried, but I'll have to give that a try!

Regarding the PC, I think we actually agree on all points, except that what you see as a negative, I see as a positive. One of the things I like about Dragon Age is you feel like you're dropped into a book, and I think that's because the other characters are so strong and vital to the story. In most games, you're the only important person. I'm kind of tired of that. It's all sort of predictable. Heh, that's why it's so awesome that you can get dumped. It's like 'Ow! I'm the hero! I'm not supposed to feel pain!' I kind of like being in a story where other people have purpose, importance, and duties other than you. I don't really see why the player character has to be the center of the universe.

[Mlai00]

errant_knight wrote...
He does? I'm going to have to try that! My characters aren't the type to threaten old women, so I've never tried, but I'll have to give that a try!

Regarding the PC, I think we actually agree on all points, except that what you see as a negative, I see as a positive. One of the things I like about Dragon Age is you feel like you're dropped into a book, and I think that's because the other characters are so strong and vital to the story. In most games, you're the only important person. I'm kind of tired of that. It's all sort of predictable. Heh, that's why it's so awesome that you can get dumped. It's like 'Ow! I'm the hero! I'm not supposed to feel pain!' I kind of like being in a story where other people have purpose, importance, and duties other than you. I don't really see why the player character has to be the center of the universe.

Wow, Alistair speaks up?!

Haha, I gotta try that too!  Thankfully my next playthrough is a mage... perfect for roleplay hostility towards the Chantry!  So far my 2 PCs are either pro-Chantry (HN), or indifferent (DC).

I agree that the nebulousness of the main PC is an asset to WRPGs, unlike JRPGs which always give you a pre-written PC.  I'm pretty sure JRPG players _never_ had to roleplay an unlikeable hero.  Well, unintentional unlikeability aside (Squall...).

Honestly the game would lose 75% of its replay value, if my Snotra Brosca feels exactly the same as my Heimjor Cousland except for appearance and combat differences.

[yummysoap]

I have to agree with just about everything Vicious says, and the previous statement on this thread that were this a book, Alistair would be the protagonist.



But this is a trope of every "true" RPG out there; when you have so many variables they will never all be carried through, and DA:O is a variable disaster. The dev's already discussed over in the ME section how insanely difficult it was to carry over the decisions from ME1 to ME2 and the Warden can potentially be way more diverse a character than Shepard ever was.



I don't believe our Warden will be making a physical return in a fully-fledged sequel - I think he will only be alluded to as "the Hero of Ferelden" with a very generic series of character traits that conform to all the possibile origins. Alistair on the other hand will most definitely make a return, as will Morrigan and perhaps a few others. This is all very common for RPGs, and it's one of the sacrifices you have to make to have a "proper" RPG.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I agree that Alistair is the true main character. When the Warden is implemented into the storyline, it doesn't flow as properly as it could've had the Warden never existed.



Now, I understand why such a stupid plot device used to harden Alistair made absolutley no sense.



The only time I can see the Warden ever being necessary is if he chose to do the dark ritual. That would give the Warden a pretty tight grasp in any future sequel. If not for that one task, the Warden's story becomes irrelevant. Although Alistair could've done the ritual, I believe that is the Warden's one and only chance to steal the spotlight.

[Xandurpein]

I stand by my original statement. It's impossible to say who Alistair is without the relationship to 'The Warden'. If DA had been a book and Alistair had been the main Protagonist, then it would have been a different Alistair than the one in the game. Alistair is molded by 'the Warden', for good or bad. I find the idea that 'the Warden' is irrelevant to the story baffleing, as it is the Warden who determine the whole plot.

It is The Warden that writes the story. It is The Warden that can help Alistair overcome his fears (or not). The assumption that Alistair should be the main protagonist is based on the assumption that there is a canon history where he becomes a beloved King. There is no such canon history!

It is pure speculation that Alistair would 'rise to the occation' without The Warden. I could easily raise a number of arguments why i think that is unlikely. At the very least The Warden is necessary as the catalyst who makes it possible for alistar to find the potential within him.

It is also perfectly possible to write Dragon Age as a story where Alistair is an inconsequential figure who guards the camp while others do the heroic stuff and then disappear when Loghain fulfill his 'destiny' and redeem himself by killing the Archdemon. It's all up to the Warden.

ALL possible ends of the story are equally valid. Which is the true story of DA is up to the Warden to determine.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 avril 2010 - 09:09 .

[Cowboy_christo]

Hah its the player that is the star. Alistair is too much of a wuss to do **** by himself. He would probably have run himself trough is sword after ostagar wasnt it for our constant support.

[SRWill64]

Vicious wrote...

Alistair IS the hero of DAO if the PC doesn't exist. Go look at the comic David Gaider wrote. Morrigan prepositions Alistair directly. No PC required.

If Alistair were man enough to do everything [and he is, but requires hardening which the death of Duncan SHOULD have done instead of meeting some stupid sister] then the PC is redundant.

Which is why The Warden is not a hero which you can build sequels out of. He can not exist and everything would have worked out anyway.

think about it: Alistair is the bastard son of a legendary king with a legendary bloodline, has knightly training, is the most experienced surviving Grey Warden, can become King of Ferelden, ETC.


And to top it all off, [ The ORLESIAN WARDEN in Awakenings comes from a world where the original protagonist DID NOT EXIST and Alistair WAS man enough to do everything on his own. This is the only viable explanation since The Ultimate Sacrifice is not a supported ending.


IMO The Warden is ultimately one of Bioware's weakest characters in terms of development over the course of the adventure. And not because Alistair steals the show [he really doesn't.] but just because he's not particularly interesting.

I must say I have to agree with you. Alistair shouldn't have been that unaffected by the death of Duncan in the terms of hardening. I think that would have been a better turning point than finding out your sister is a shrew. But since the PC is there for Alistair to lean on, he takes advantage of it.

[SRWill64]

errant_knight wrote...

Vicious wrote...

One moment that sticks out to me is this. Alistair for plot reasons defers to 'The Hero' for leadership, but if the hero threatens the Revered Mother in Lothering, he goes RIGHT OVER THE HERO'S HEAD and solves the problem [recruiting Sten] with some VERY impassioned dialogue, which is something the hero is unable to do.


I digressed and I apologize. But I feel The Warden's nebulous character traits [since as said it is based on the imagination of the player] are what disqualifies him from being a returning or franchise hero... well... ever.

He does? I'm going to have to try that! My characters aren't the type to threaten old women, so I've never tried, but I'll have to give that a try!

Regarding the PC, I think we actually agree on all points, except that what you see as a negative, I see as a positive. One of the things I like about Dragon Age is you feel like you're dropped into a book, and I think that's because the other characters are so strong and vital to the story. In most games, you're the only important person. I'm kind of tired of that. It's all sort of predictable. Heh, that's why it's so awesome that you can get dumped. It's like 'Ow! I'm the hero! I'm not supposed to feel pain!' I kind of like being in a story where other people have purpose, importance, and duties other than you. I don't really see why the player character has to be the center of the universe.

I never tried this either. Now I'm going to have to. I love it when Alistair shows he does have a spine....proves all those who doubt him wrong. Heh!
@Errant_Knight  I agree with that point of view.

[SRWill64]

Xandurpein wrote...

I stand by my original statement. It's impossible to say who Alistair is without the relationship to 'The Warden'. If DA had been a book and Alistair had been the main Protagonist, then it would have been a different Alistair than the one in the game. Alistair is molded by 'the Warden', for good or bad. I find the idea that 'the Warden' is irrelevant to the story baffleing, as it is the Warden who determine the whole plot.

It is The Warden that writes the story. It is The Warden that can help Alistair overcome his fears (or not). The assumption that Alistair should be the main protagonist is based on the assumption that there is a canon history where he becomes a beloved King. There is no such canon history!

It is pure speculation that Alistair would 'rise to the occation' without The Warden. I could easily raise a number of arguments why i think that is unlikely. At the very least The Warden is necessary as the catalyst who makes it possible for alistar to find the potential within him.

It is also perfectly possible to write Dragon Age as a story where Alistair is an inconsequential figure who guards the camp while others do the heroic stuff and then disappear when Loghain fulfill his 'destiny' and redeem himself by killing the Archdemon. It's all up to the Warden.

ALL possible ends of the story are equally valid. Which is the true story of DA is up to the Warden to determine.

Alistair is his father's son; there is greatness in his blood. He may have some problems showing it, but if you have read David Gaider's books (which I have), you can see that Maric fell on his face a few dozen times, too. And King Maric didn't do it all by himself, and he knew it. He was thinking at one point in the story that he would never have been able to do it by himself...would have been dead long before he ever found the Rebel Army if it weren't for others. I won't say any more because I don't want to spoil the story for others. But suffice it to say, he is his father's son.

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

@Vicious, Precisely. That is what I meant when I started this topic. Alistair does show alot of spine. He confronts you very directly, if you kill Connor, not to mention anything evil you do he takes a stand against. The PC is more of a, I wonder what would happen tool. Gives you freedom to explore many different outcomes. Just an exploration tool.

[Alexor Destroyer of Worlds]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Obviously it's the story of Sten. The unkillables are most likely as the "main characters" if it isn't the PC.

Of course.

The entire game is the story of Sten killing fat kids and taking their cookies. Are you guys stupid? What's with all this crazy conspiracy theory about the blight and ostagar?

If you don't want Alistair bossing you around, don't bring him with you.

Modifié par Alexor Destroyer of Worlds, 12 avril 2010 - 03:08 .

[SRWill64]

People...I thought, in case anyone is interested, I would tell you. I just got a message from Mr. Gaider...he tells me Alistair is supposed to be 21 years old. Don't believe me? Ask him yourself.....

[Chuvvy]

My theory is that you aren't actually the Grey Warden at all. Because he/she says "All right." "Yes." "Can I get you a ladder so you can get off my back?" ect When you tell him/her to do something.

I think your play as some sort of overlord that just controls everything. Sorta like the island on Lost.