321 réponses à ce sujet

[Peepshow12]

I say Pro-Alien co-operation for a few reasons.

1. One more friend is one less enemy. Until one betrays the other. I'll deal with that if it comes to it.

2. Assuming I can trust them I'd rather have a Krogan at my back than a human.

3. I trust humans as much as I trust aliens. Have enough friends and one of them has got to be trustworthy.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The act of becoming a Spectre in and of itself advances humanity.

Of-course, but keeping that Spectre tied to humanity advances us even further.

What you want is for that lone Spectre to play right into the Council's plans. You see they can get away with their Spectres being un-attached because those other Spectres are members of the Council races. With Shepard this isn't the case in the first game. Without a human on the Council humanity is still at a great disadvantage.

My role as a Spectre is to serve the Council, yes. If you want to say that's the same thing as playing into their plans, well, however you'd like to put it.

I should mention, however, that I have hardly lived up to that - in fact I seem to thwart them quite often and defy their plans constantly.

So I think you're saying that since Shepard's the only human Spectre and humanity is still at a disadvantage he can't afford the luxury of detaching himself from the needs of his race like other Spectres can.

Well, that might be so, but all I can say is that Spectres go by a standard. Since we've been given an honored place among them we have to live up to that standard and show the Council races we're sincere and willing to think of others.

[wulf3n]

Peepshow12 wrote...
3. I trust humans as much as I trust aliens. Have enough friends and one of them has got to be trustworthy.

Agreed but for different reasons.

A human in the Mass Effect universe is just as likely to stab u in the back than a batarian is. The only difference is you'll suspect the batarian of something, and you'll never see the human coming.

[TobyHasEyes]

Why is advancing the cause of humanity so important? Surely you should recognise yourself as a sentient being amongst many sentient beings, some human, some not. The Council doesn't have any sinister agenda, it only aims to promote galactic stability. Which is in our interest, we can be a successful species without being the big political cheese. And the rules they used to decide which races could apply for the Council, those who make a big enough sacrifice for the whole galaxy, makes complete sense. It's wisdom, and shows that the point of the Council is that they are not supposed to only see their own species as important. In the battle of the Citadel, humanity made the sacrifice for the whole galaxy by throwing many forces against Sovereign and taking it out. Which is why in my playthrough, I support an alien council with Anderson as a human respresentative; I never intended to even have a 'human-led' council.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, that might be so, but all I can say is that Spectres go by a standard. Since we've been given an honored place among them we have to live up to that standard and show the Council races we're sincere and willing to think of others.

The Council only wants to see that we can be controlled, nothing more.

You are determined to demonize them.

[TobyHasEyes]

And yes, how the alien races have reacted to the human's ascension into the Council in me2 is annoying, but that isn't a sign that we can't work together. It just shows that some members of every galactic race have a similarly blinkard view of their own races' importance. You seem to constantly be suspecting the Council of ulterior motives, so you can't really be suprised that some members of other races share that suspicion when they see humanity increasing in power. Only by showing, with words and actions, that you represent a different view can you hope to bring them all together

[Zulu_DFA]

wulf3n wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And, it is in the best interests of that "bigger" that humanity takes the lead.

why?

Page 3 of this thread.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You are determined to demonize them.

Their actions demonize them. You are determined to see them as something that they are not.

It's really quite depressing.

Now now, that's exaggerating.

We need to show the Council they can't screw with us. That we're not to be toyed with or belittled. We need to prove we're equals and we deserve respect as equals.

Once that's achieved it's time to start thinking of others.

And of course the Council's first instinct is to control us, we're new and they're old. We haven't acclimated yet. It's natural.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

The Council only wants to see that we can be controlled, nothing more.

I really don't want to make fun of you for being republican because I respect everyone's POV as a principle. But hell since you ridicule just about everything other than ultra-right wing Americana... Oh well you're probably not gonna respect mine so there it goes.

You Republicans can't even be at peace with your own countryman, what makes you think you can do a remotely decent job at maintaining inter-galactic peace? The Council is by no means a perfect watchman of the galaxy, but if the only alternative is the human dominance you so direly promote, then I'd gladly vote for putting humanity in its place. The Council's idea of "controlling" you thus far mostly consists of limiting your intrution tactics towards other species' council space. I must say I can't complain, after all not everyone likes waving their big gun in others' faces all the time.

You know the only reason I can think of why the humans advanced so quickly in the inter-galactic order is not because we're short-lived or especially driven or even capable (the case of which if is true then the Salarians ought to be on top not us), it's because we have the tendency to act on our interest with total disregard to consequences or consideration for others. We're not disliked in the galaxy because we're overacheivers, we're disliked because we have been taking advantage of Council Space, while at the same time some of us are behaving quite ungratefully.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Until we clean up our act, I really don't think we deserve to dominate species of moral superiority to us.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You are determined to demonize them.

Their actions demonize them. You are determined to see them as something that they are not.

It's really quite depressing.

Now now, that's exaggerating.

We need to show the Council they can't screw with us. That we're not to be toyed with or belittled. We need to prove we're equals and we deserve respect as equals.

Once that's achieved it's time to start thinking of others.

And of course the Council's first instinct is to control us, we're new and they're old. We haven't acclimated yet. It's natural.

It's also natural to strive for unlimited power (mwua-ha-ha-ha!!!). The Council should give Humanity a galaxy to rule. Otherwise, anything less than that is "belittling" it.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

Their actions demonize them. You are determined to see them as something that they are not.

It's really quite depressing.

What actions precisely?

Not bombing the entire Solar System into oblivion when they could?

Helping the humans open a school and train their first biotics?

Bailing us out when we invaded Batarian space?

Helping designing and building the most advanced warship in our entire fleet?

That's more mercy shown to a "disadvantaged" cousin in 26 years than USA had in 260.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's also natural to strive for unlimited power (mwua-ha-ha-ha!!!). The Council should give Humanity a galaxy to rule. Otherwise, anything less than that is "belittling" it.

Um... no.

The Council doesn't have access to other galaxies. ... No one does. Not even the Council races have whole galaxies to rule.

We have to all work together and get along here, in this one.

[TobyHasEyes]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

We need to show the Council they can't screw with us. That we're not to be toyed with or belittled. We need to prove we're equals and we deserve respect as equals.

...and to do that we need to make them work really hard to get anything out of us. If we did things your way we'd be showing that we can be controlled and coddeled, and in time they'd have us convinced we didn't even need a position on the Council. They want to snuff out humanity's fire.

Nightwriter wrote...

And of course the Council's first instinct is to control us, we're new and they're old. We haven't acclimated yet. It's natural.

...which you support. Frankly I don't want them controlling my species. The Council have controlled dozens of species for thousands of years and after all that time NONE of those species have gained a Council seat though at least a few have gone extinct (or nearly so). Putting humanity's fate in the Council's hands is a fatal mistake.

Speakeasy13 wrote...

I really don't want to make fun of you for being republican...

You'd look very silly if you did because I do not have an political affiliations.

 They have a policy that you can only join the Council to lead the entire galactic community when your race has made a sacrifice in the interests of the whole community. Asari, salarians and turians have made the sacrifice, committing a wealth of people, resources and time to building that galactic community. The turians, as the best comparable example, only ascended to the Council after their dedication in fighting off the krogan threat. At the end of Mass Effect, we sacrificed many people to destroy a threat to galactic peace and (for some, not me) to save the existing Council. And as a consequence, we managed to join the Council. It just seems some of humanity is yet to reach the level of maturity the Council have which sees the galaxy as a whole

[wulf3n]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Page 3 of this thread.

ok, but is having humans take over the councils postions a good option. That would ultimately make us as bad as them. Would it not be better just to disassociate(if thats the right word) ourselves from the council and develop on our own, without the interference by the council, but still co-operating with aliens. Similar to how the Terminus systems operate.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's also natural to strive for unlimited power (mwua-ha-ha-ha!!!). The Council should give Humanity a galaxy to rule. Otherwise, anything less than that is "belittling" it.

Um... no.

The Council doesn't have access to other galaxies. ... No one does. Not even the Council races have whole galaxies to rule.

We have to all work together and get along here, in this one.

Yeah, and the Reapers just want hugs.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

What actions precisely?

Go read my previous posts or if you really want to impress me read about the Council's history on your own via' the novel "Revelation" and the in-game codex.  The Council is not a noble organization, not in principal, design, or certainly in application.

No one said they are. They're just better than the human governments that's all. In fact I wouldn't mind if a truly noble political power eventually overturns the Council. I just don't think the humans can do any better.

I read your posts. We had pages-long discussions about this, which you obviously don't remember. One more reason to despise humanity and our total neglect of anything but ourselves.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 09 avril 2010 - 10:31 .

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...

The Citadel is too valuable strategically to just ignore.

How so? yeah its a pretty big station, but does it have any offensive capabilities? does it have any valuable resources?

[Zulu_DFA]

wulf3n wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Page 3 of this thread.

ok, but is having humans take over the councils postions a good option. That would ultimately make us as bad as them. Would it not be better just to disassociate(if thats the right word) ourselves from the council and develop on our own, without the interference by the council, but still co-operating with aliens. Similar to how the Terminus systems operate.

Thas't basically what the all-human Council scenario is about. We need access to the Citadel. We have it. Now, the former Council races may rejoin on our terms, or restablish their own Council somewhere else.

wulf3n wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The Citadel is too valuable strategically to just ignore.

How so? yeah its a pretty big station, but does it have any offensive capabilities? does it have any valuable resources?

It's the biggest mass relay hub. Think of it like the Panama Canal.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 avril 2010 - 10:35 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

...and to do that we need to make them work really hard to get anything out of us. If we did things your way we'd be showing that we can be controlled and coddeled, and in time they'd have us convinced we didn't even need a position on the Council. They want to snuff out humanity's fire.

No, no. We have to be firm but show we're willing to cooperate. We have to not let anyone push us around and also prove we're not going to push anyone else around, either.

It's not full cooperation or full incooperation - we have to be strong, but reasonable.

...which you support. Frankly I don't want them controlling my species. The Council have controlled dozens of species for thousands of years and after all that time NONE of those species have gained a Council seat though at least a few have gone extinct (or nearly so). Putting humanity's fate in the Council's hands is a fatal mistake.

How can you not understand that species who do not meet the requirements to become a Council race WILL NOT GET IN?

They're not being given the short end of the stick, they're not being ignored or snubbed because the Council doesn't want to let them in - to become a Council race you have to have martial might, responsibility, strength.

Council races have to contribute significantly to the defense of the galaxy, and if a race can't do that to the fullest it can't join. The responsibility is heavy.

The volus? No martial might. Batarians? No responsibility. Krogan? No responsibility. Quarians? Lack the  strength - they're nomads. Elcor? Not martially inclined. Hanar? Not martially inclined. It doesn't matter how long these races have been around. What matters is the responsibility they can shoulder.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 09 avril 2010 - 10:38 .