321 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

The volus? No martial might. Batarians?
No responsibility. Krogan? No responsibility. Quarians? Lack the
strength - they're nomads. Elcor? Not martially inclined. Hanar? Not
martially inclined. It doesn't matter how long these races have been
around. What matters is the responsibility they can shoulder.

Or, rather they just can't take on the Council races militarily, and fight for dominance. They just lack certain instinct, it seems.

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...

Hub of the relay network and the center of galactic commerce and culture.

i wouldn't say galactic commerce, as it only really encompasses citadel space. what about omega or illisium, maybe not as big as the citadel, but your not affected by council laws there.

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
Take up your argument with the codex then.

fair enough

i've always had a few arguments with the codex, and whats said/demonstrated in the game.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Go read my previous posts or if you really want to impress me read about the Council's history on your own via' the novel "Revelation" and the in-game codex.  The Council is not a noble organization, not in principal, design, or certainly in application.

Yes, because we all live to impress you, Shand. Your approval is the godhead at the top of the holy mountain we strive to climb each day.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...


No one said they are. They're just better than the human governments that's all.

From who's perspective?

If you want a Council that lives up to the propaganda then you'll need one composed of EVERY race associated with Citadel Space. Anyone forced to comply with the Council's rulings should have a say in its government, period.

It doesn't, so I said. Did you even read my post? It's quite depressing really when the discussion consists of you repeating your POV over and over again without paying attention to what others are saying.

"Go read my old posts although I'm not reading yours." Why should I, cuz you're better than me?

For someone so big on his own opinions you really are a terrible debator. How about trying to understand others' perspective for a change? Cuz you'd never convince anyone if you don't.

Unless calling names and flaming arguments are EXACTLY what you're looking for, then your case rests itself. So I rest mine.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 09 avril 2010 - 10:45 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


No, no. We have to be firm but show we're willing to cooperate. We have to not let  anyone push us around and also prove we're not going to push anyone elsearound, either.

You can't have your cake and eat it to. By not allowing yourself to be pushed around you are in effect doing exactly that to everyone else. You're forcing them to make concenssions to you in return for your cooperation.

Seriously?

You're living in a world of absolutes, where the entire makeup of the galaxy is about confrontation or no confrontation.

Defending oneself and standing tall can be achieved without pushing other people around or being an instigator yourself.

And if by concessions you mean them treating us with respect, then... yes.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Or, rather they just can't take on the Council races militarily, and fight for dominance. They just lack certain instinct, it seems.

They wouldn't have to, I think.

I have often wondered about all the things the Council would need to worry about in the interests of galactic stability, and what they have to make sure their protected races do not do.

If I were a protected Council race - say, the volus - and I was displeased with the way my race was being treated, I think what I would do is fly into the Terminus Systems under the banner of the Citadel, as an official Council ship.

This would trigger immediate war, and the Council would be tied up with the battle for months, even years.

Or, being a volus, I would simply fiddle with galactic finance and bring the entire trade market crashing down.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

I'm not here to reach mutual understanding with anybody. All I care about is expressing my views and being entertained. I learned long ago that debate on the internet was a pointless exercise in futility.

What an obvious and barely-articulate way of saying "I have no respect for you or your opinion I'm just here declaring myself because I think the world centers around me." Oh well, your views are somewhat fitting to that philosophy so if it suits you.

Now if you will excuse me because the feeling is quite neutral. I have no interest in entertaining you. I must return to more interesting activities than debating fruitlessly with you, such as watching paint dry on my wall.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 09 avril 2010 - 11:00 .

[Teknor]

Shandepared wrote...

I'm not here to reach mutual understanding with anybody. All I care about is expressing my views and being entertained. I learned long ago that debate on the internet was a pointless exercise in futility.

Then you are a troll who is heating a pointless argument just for sh*ts and giggles. 

[Nightwriter]

Speakeasy's posts are quite entertaining, actually. The debate just got more fun to watch.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Or, rather they just can't take on the Council races militarily, and fight for dominance. They just lack certain instinct, it seems.

They wouldn't have to, I think.

I have often wondered about all the things the Council would need to worry about in the interests of galactic stability, and what they have to make sure their protected races do not do.

If I were a protected Council race - say, the volus - and I was displeased with the way my race was being treated, I think what I would do is fly into the Terminus Systems under the banner of the Citadel, as an official Council ship.

This would trigger immediate war, and the Council would be tied up with the battle for months, even years.

Or, being a volus, I would simply fiddle with galactic finance and bring the entire trade market crashing down.

You wouldn't live long enough to do that. What do you think the Spectres are for?

[Speakeasy13]

Zulu and Nightwriter,

Let's not forget that the Volus are superb businessmen. In certain regards they can be just as powerful as some of the council races. If SPECTRE had a white collar crime division we all know who will be running it. They don't get their own embassy because they are a patront race of the Turians, but they may well actually have more bargaining power than we do. If they ever threatens to withdraw they investments in Citadel space...

Similarily of the 3 Council races only the Turians are truly militant. The Asari rely more on diplomatic poweress and the Salarians are espionage experts.

What I'm trying to say is humanity won't win the respect of other races by beating the Council in an arms race (frankly we don't have that kind of military power anyway). We need to build up our political and economical power, or we'll just end up like Russia did in the 90's.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 09 avril 2010 - 11:12 .

[Wildecker]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Zulu and Nightwriter,

Let's not forget that the Volus are superb businessmen. In certain regards they can be just as powerful as some of the council races. If SPECTRE had a white collar crime division we all know who will be running it. They don't get their own embassy because they are a patront race of the Turians, but they may well actually have more bargaining power than we do. If they ever threatens to withdraw they investments in Citadel space...

Agreed. The Volus may not be able to bomb you back into the stone age from orbit like the Turians. But unless you're very, very well guarded they can wreck your economy so much that you actually wish the Turians had hit you.

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Similarily of the 3 Council races only the Turians are truly militant. The Asari rely more on diplomatic poweress and the Salarians are espionage experts.

Well, until they ran into the Rachni the Asari and the Salarians handled the military challenges to their Council of two themselves. They first recruited more muscle against the Rachni by tasking the Krogans, and then when their new muscle rebelled against them they asked the Turians for help - who have been the Council's military and police branch ever since.
I guess the Council could have brought the Alliance down if they had committed everything they had to the job, but they would have sustained heavy casualties in the process and would have been left wide open to the Batarians exploiting this new weakness afterwards.

[Milician]

Species can work better with help. Countries and people work better with help. If its as simple as advice and a person to compare to, or an ally to help fight your battles. Either way a person does not get by in life without the help, or challenge of other beings.

What does all this preachy scientific philisophical nonsense mean? Put simply other beings of any sort help improve just about anything. Diversity in culture allows new ideas and thus new thoughts for inventions. New opinions help others understand what they are blinded to. Even the challenge of being better than a person/species is enough to benefit a society.

Pro-human would help our own chances of sucess, but then there is no actual progress. Being able to mix and interact with other people helps us in hundreds of ways, so imagine an entirely new species. How much could they help?

(Plus it's not always the best idea to try and conqueor something you know nothing about or what they are capable of. At least stick with them until you know what your up against )

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...


No it's not. Doser's quite right.

An example? Oh, let me consult my examples archive...

How about I, Robot? Why did Will Smith hate robots? Because he'd gotten into an accident and the robot that saved him didn't save the little girl who was also trapped in a car underwater - the robot calculated the girl had, what, an 11% chance for survival? Will Smith had higher chances, so the robot saved him.

Now this was quite a logical decision that I also think was completely wrong. The right decision, imo, is to save the child, no matter the odds.

I just have to point out here that Emergency Service teams would actually automatically seek to save the one person who has a higher chance of survival regardless of whether said person is 11 years old or 50. There is no 'right decision' since you're arbritrarily stating that one person's life is more valuable than anothers, and isn't this exactly what you get pissed off in regards to TIM/Cerberus?

People hate Cerberus more often than not simply because of Corporal Toombs, but we haven't been given the full story just that Toombs says he was experimented upon, we don't know the nature of the 'experiments' and he was traumatised from the Thresher Maws. Hell, I think most people would deploy a unit of marines on a local that had it's colonists disappear, it makes sense, they're marines, they have guns. They are trained.

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's also natural to strive for unlimited power (mwua-ha-ha-ha!!!). The Council should give Humanity a galaxy to rule. Otherwise, anything less than that is "belittling" it.

Somehow I think Humanity would be less than satisfied with a Council ruling that states "Your maps refer to them as the Greater and the Lesser Magellanic Cloud. If you can reach them, they're all yours. Rejoice!"

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
If you don't support your own interests or the interests of your peers then you are passively promoting the interests of their rivals.

Not necessarily. Paying taxes, consuming goods and so forth makes you passively support your country. Direct support is not a total necessity.

Shandepared wrote...
Most of the American people wanted to stay out of WWII, but the world moves on and acts whether or not we want to be part of it. Where do you think we would be today if the United States had stayed out of the war and the **** regime had survived the war, or perhaps worse, been completely conquered by the Soviet Union? In that scenario there would be no East and West Germany because the Soviet Union would have conquered all of Europe (or a great deal more of it than they did). What about Japan's expansion into the Pacific? Was it even possible to avoid that war? The Japanese were going to come into conflict with the United States sooner or later. They didn't attack the U.S. because they were fools; they wanted to make the first move while the U.S. was not yet militarized and hopefully knock it out of the war early.

Unfortunately for them the attack on Pearl Harbor was failure.

The point is, the world would never have ignored the United States and sooner or later the very hostile regimes that were rising around world in the first half of the 20th century would have ome for us one way or another. Hitler certainly had plans for it in subsequent decades and without the U.S. to oppose them how much further do you think the Soviet Union would have spread? We'd have fallen behind either Germany or the Soviet Union (or both) and instead of the 20th Century being the American century it would be the German or Soviet century. 

Anyway, this is getting too hypothetical.

I agree, it is getting hypothetical but I wouldn't be too surprised if it would have been somewhere along those lines.

Shandepared wrote...
How dense can you possibly be? I put it in extremely plain terms.

Haha. I was asking why it was selfish when I questioned you for why I should care more for one species. You did not give me any good resons.  You said:

Then you're a selfish person with no attatchment to the people around
you, those will come after you, or those who came before you. People
like you would accept anything as long as you had a comfortable life.

You hade no facts to support those ideas, hence my questioning. To be more precise, you had no facts to support the use of the term "selfish".

Shandepared wrote... I'll be the first to admit that I am often extremely aggressive, condescending, or downright rude in expressing my opinions.

We share a mutual loathing of one another.

Oh. Well, then I'll let you loath each other in peace.

Goodwood wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Ehm...why? 

To
Shandepared: Seriously, is there some kind of insipid and childish hate
against you by some on these forums? I've seen some people call you
troll and the likes just because you voiced your opinion in different
threads... Do people really have that big of a problem with someone
elses opinion just because it's different from theirs? Wow...

It was a joke; I was basically equating Shandpatine's reply to a strawman
argument, and humorously implying that I was going to burn said argument
in a grand public display. I don't hate him, but he does tend to foam a
bit at the mouth as he puts forth the same drivel again and again.

Aha okay, my bad. I misinterpreted what you said.

enormousmoonboots
wrote...
I admit I've never liked him since he brought the 'it's all
because you're filthy liberals' element to a Cerberus discussion
and...what was the other thing, denying Native American genocide? Don't
feel like raising my blood pressure by digging up that thread again.
I've always considered bringing actual politics--particularly the
superiority of your own party--into a video game discussion troll
territory. Subtle trolling, but trolling nonetheless.

Oh, okay.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 09 avril 2010 - 02:16 .

[Halmiriliath]

Shandepared wrote...

Idealism is for the ignorant and naive.

Goodwood wrote...

That is your opinion. Not even remotely close to any sort of empirical fact.

Shandepared wrote...
History says otherwise.

Go ahead, bring up the Vulcans again.

*Facepalm* Shandepared, must you keep on attempting to twist history in an attempt to validate your argument? Our present is born out of the idealism of the past. I could list the endless examples of idealism and the massive impact it had on the course of events leading up to now, but shall instead list a few poignant examples: Greek poleis in the Greco-Persian Wars; the Puritans in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms; the political protestors in 'communist' China; and closer to today, the Taliban/Al-Qaeda. In each case realism and pragmatism were/have been subordinated to commitment to a set of ideals dearer to them than life itself.

What relevance does this have to this discussion? A commitment to the maintanence of amicable, equal relations with the Council races on the principle that they are sentient beings with just as much a right to live as us is neither ignorant or naive. It is a common courtesy we like to extend to fellow humans on Earth, some of whom are from nations that have committed what some perceive as unspeakable acts in the past, but this does not legitimate pointless hostility and distrust of them today. Goodwood's enlightened self-interest would serve us better - and result in less anti-human feeling and loss of human life in the protracted wars that would ensue - than your 'humans first, couldn't give a **** about the rest' line.

[Srau]

Bah, OP question is irrevelent since anyway in the ME galaxy almost everyone is out for himself, everyone has his own agenda and, like irl, everyone sticks his head deep in his *** as a way of life.
As an exemple, i would not be surprised to see humans collaborating with reapers to abduct and eradicate humanity for some selfish reason or worse, because they really think in their right mind it is the correct thing to do.

EDIT : i remember dialogues with Alenko in ME1 that summarize all. Other species are not better than humanity, they are in fact very humans : b*****ds with alot of bad sides.

Modifié par Srau, 09 avril 2010 - 03:38 .

[Speakeasy13]

Arijharn wrote...

People hate Cerberus more often than not simply because of Corporal Toombs, but we haven't been given the full story just that Toombs says he was experimented upon, we don't know the nature of the 'experiments' and he was traumatised from the Thresher Maws. Hell, I think most people would deploy a unit of marines on a local that had it's colonists disappear, it makes sense, they're marines, they have guns. They are trained.

Yes we hate Cerberus because of Corporal Toombs. They only injected Fresh Maw acid into his bloodstream right, what is he ****ing about? What a wimp.

- We don't hate Cerberus because they murdered Alliance soldiers by luring them into a Fresher Maw nest
- We don't hate Cerberus because they murdered Admiral Kahoku
- We don't hate Cerberus because they shipped Husks onto human colonies
- We don't hate Cerberus because they tried to enslave Rachni soldiers and didn't even bother to clean up their mess
- We don't hate Cerberus because they played with Thorian technology and got colonists killed
- We don't hate Cerberus because they sent their own scientists to their deaths in a Reaper without remorse
- We don't hate Cerberus because they tried to blow up a Qurian ship to cover up their dirty secrets
- We also don't hate Cerberus because they tortured children and created monsters like Jack

Did you even play the ME1 btw?

[Zulu_DFA]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

People hate Cerberus more often than not simply because of Corporal Toombs, but we haven't been given the full story just that Toombs says he was experimented upon, we don't know the nature of the 'experiments' and he was traumatised from the Thresher Maws. Hell, I think most people would deploy a unit of marines on a local that had it's colonists disappear, it makes sense, they're marines, they have guns. They are trained.

Yes we hate Cerberus because of Corporal Toombs. They only injected Fresh Maw acid into his bloodstream right, what is he ****ing about? What a wimp.

- We don't hate Cerberus because they murdered Alliance soldiers by luring them into a Fresher Maw nest
- We don't hate Cerberus because they murdered Admiral Kahoku
- We don't hate Cerberus because they shipped Husks onto human colonies
- We don't hate Cerberus because they tried to enslave Rachni soldiers and didn't even bother to clean up their mess
- We don't hate Cerberus because they played with Thorian technology and got colonists killed
- We don't hate Cerberus because they sent their own scientists to their deaths in a Reaper without remorse
- We don't hate Cerberus because they tried to blow up a Qurian ship to cover up their dirty secrets
- We also don't hate Cerberus because they tortured children and created monsters like Jack

Did you even play the ME1 btw?

You forgot about the kittens.