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Pro-Human Dominance VS Pro-Alien Cooperation


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#26
enormousmoonboots

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Collider wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Collider wrote...

I don't think you can call humanity collectively short-sighted.

Good point, it's not like major human governments have ever caused a pollution crisis or energy crisis or something like tha--oh wait.

It's not like major human governments have ever employed energy management and anti-pollution programs before...oh wait. Humans are individual. A lot of the pollution and energy problems we've caused was not due to knowing negligence, but that we did not understand the field of science associated with it quite enough. You can't blame us for that. Calling humanity short-sighted is a generalization, and almost comedic considering you yourself human. What do you have to compare humanity against? Yourself? You're human.

I'm comparing humanity against the other races in the galaxy. Nobody said I had to like my home team. And the not understanding pollution and relays and energy crisis is part of my point--we didn't stop to think. We didn't stop to study. Sure, maybe it wouldn't make sense for the political/scientific climate at the time, but again, that's part of my point--short-sighted. Historically, we've jumped from resource to resource as soon as a new one becomes available--remember how popular nuclear power got in the 1950s? And then all those nuclear disasters--oops. Thalidomide? Awesome, it'll fix your morning sickness! also it will mutate your babies, whoops i guess we have the fda for a reason, huh

On the whole, humans like quick results and quick fixes. Cerberus alone proves that humanity continues to display this trait in the Mass Effect universe.

#27
Andrew_Waltfeld

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enormousmoonboots wrote...

Collider wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Collider wrote...

I don't think you can call humanity collectively short-sighted.

Good point, it's not like major human governments have ever caused a pollution crisis or energy crisis or something like tha--oh wait.

It's not like major human governments have ever employed energy management and anti-pollution programs before...oh wait. Humans are individual. A lot of the pollution and energy problems we've caused was not due to knowing negligence, but that we did not understand the field of science associated with it quite enough. You can't blame us for that. Calling humanity short-sighted is a generalization, and almost comedic considering you yourself human. What do you have to compare humanity against? Yourself? You're human.

I'm comparing humanity against the other races in the galaxy. Nobody said I had to like my home team. And the not understanding pollution and relays and energy crisis is part of my point--we didn't stop to think. We didn't stop to study. Sure, maybe it wouldn't make sense for the political/scientific climate at the time, but again, that's part of my point--short-sighted. Historically, we've jumped from resource to resource as soon as a new one becomes available--remember how popular nuclear power got in the 1950s? And then all those nuclear disasters--oops. Thalidomide? Awesome, it'll fix your morning sickness! also it will mutate your babies, whoops i guess we have the fda for a reason, huh

On the whole, humans like quick results and quick fixes. Cerberus alone proves that humanity continues to display this trait in the Mass Effect universe.


totally agree. every race has it's faults and weaknesses as well as it's strength.

Krogan - battling.... battling.... some more battling. Their entire culture is battle after battle, steriods upon testronone so to speak.

Volus - greed is in their culture, how much wealth they have accumluated.

Elcor - Unable to socialize to the point where they have to speak their emotions to other races, otherwise they have no facial or body reactions whatsoever.

Batarian's, - pretty much another humanlity, greed, corruption, cruelaity but with the slavery added into it's culture.

Asari - While living for an very long time, thier social structure seems more centered on around which species you mated then anything else. Otherwise they have a similiar human structure to it. Sometimes, they are an bit snobby as well but there is just as many good natured asari as well.

Salarians - short life spans and incredible intelliengence

Quarians - High intelligence and lack of immune system

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 08 avril 2010 - 03:52 .


#28
Splinter Cell 108

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I'd prefer if humans stayed equal to aliens. I just feel that taking over everyone would confirm the suspicions about humanity. It would give aliens a reason to call humans a bunch racists who want to put everyone under them. Besides who'd want to be going to war with everyone after the Reapers are defeated. I'm pretty sure the Turians would never allow to be ruled by humans. Then there's also the fact that humanity is new to the galactic community and the aliens have also been there for thousands of years. It seems like something very evil just to come in and destroy all they did in those thousands.



My Shepards all became close the crew, they could never do that to their crew. They trust Shepard, allowing humanity to take over their species is like betraying them. I would hate to see them hating Shepard because he was only interested in the benefits of humanity and not of the galaxy. Humans will always be discriminated by aliens until they prove that they're not out to take over. Killing the Council and keeping the Collector base are not good ways to prove that. Then there's also Cerberus, organizations such as those need to be disbanded and dissolved. They give humanity a bad reputation.

#29
Bigdoser

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Human's are short sighted its pretty obvious if you look at our history. Plus we have only been on the galatic stage for like 50 years.

#30
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I favor cooperation so long as it doesn't compromise our long term place in the galaxy. Great majority of my choices in the games favor cooperation but I hold the alliance fleet back and keep the collector base.

#31
Amairmeh

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Im for coopteration, though the council pissed me off, they are useless, like real politicians

http://social.bioware.com/brc/1529357

#32
Bigdoser

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If you saved the council i am suprised they even offer your spectre status back they could of hauled your ass for treason >_> and the fact that your with cerb they can't really tell you anything heck even if you ask anderson about your alliance squadmate he can't tell you cause your with cerb.

#33
TheSixthghoul

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Personally, Pro human. My Shepard is not a racist or specist to my pc alien's are just tool's to further his own self interest. My Shepard only want's the submission and obedieince of non human life. To my Shepard after the Prothean and before human's made their stay in universe their was no intelligent life worth salvation from the reapers. In my play threw the alien's will die as cannon fodder for reapers, for the greater good of humanity,

#34
enormousmoonboots

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Sixth Goul wrote...

Personally, Pro human. My Shepard is not a racist or specist to my pc alien's are just tool's to further his own self interest. My Shepard only want's the submission and obedieince of non human life. To my Shepard after the Prothean and before human's made their stay in universe their was no intelligent life worth salvation from the reapers. In my play threw the alien's will die as cannon fodder for reapers, for the greater good of humanity,

That's, uh...that's 100% contradictory, actually. I think even the Judge from Phoenix Wright could point out that one.

#35
JnEricsonx

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I vote for cooperation.  Kaidan said it best "Aliens aren't superior, they're jerks and saints like everyone else."  They've been around the block, and as Officer Dara says about humanity "You can't even figure out your own religions!"  Unless humanity can fully pull its crap together on Earth, we would be in NO POSITION to try running anything bigger.  Galaxy's a big place, need to try to have people working together to make it better.  That being said, I vote for some of my former and current crew members to take over as the council, cause God knows a combo of Garrus/Wrex/Tali, hell, even Mordin or Liara, probably has a better sense of judgement and reality than the Council does right now.  Poor Anderson needs backup in the worst kinda way.

#36
Massadonious1

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Defeating the Reapers isn't going to mean much when the rest of the galaxy wants to destroy you afterwords.

#37
ILALQ

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 Why needlessly ****** off a ton of alien races just to have "dominance." If you steal power, sooner or later, those you took it from are going to be looking for revenge, and they'll go to extreme measures to take it back.

Could humanity control the entire galaxy by itself? Doubtful.

It's possible to be human dominant without totally screwing the rest of the galactic community over.  No need to indoctrinate every species in the galaxy, or create your own Reapers.  Why not take both sides of the coin and get the best of both worlds?

As it is in game, if you let the council die, sure, you get an all human one to replace it, but many aliens end up loathing humanity that much more, save it, and you get a seat from which to make political moves, and you have the gratitude of some, with a far less number of individuals who dislike you. You'll never be extreme ruler, but you won't have every other alien in the galaxy out to shoot you in the back.

#38
UsagiVindaloo

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 I'm pro-cooperation for one basic reason: you can never, EVER have too many friends. :lol:

#39
luk3us

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Humans explore, expand and multiple. Its what we've done through out our entire history. This won't change once we reach space.



So I don't think there will actually be a choice between going down one road or the other. We'll going to be dominant, because its what we do and its what we always do. Despite some people trying to "place nice".







That and all humans are racists! ^_^

#40
wraith1113

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luk3us wrote...

Humans explore, expand and multiple. Its what we've done through out our entire history. This won't change once we reach space.

So I don't think there will actually be a choice between going down one road or the other. We'll going to be dominant, because its what we do and its what we always do. Despite some people trying to "place nice".



That and all humans are racists! ^_^


You forgot the "or die trying" part. That's always part of the equation.

#41
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UpDownLeftRight wrote...


Oh, please come up with good arguments/reasons. Saying "You have to support humanity because it's your species!" is not a good reason. That is a bad excuse.


No, it's a very good excuse. Let us change the words a little bit: "You have to support Britain because it's your country!"

Would you agree or disagree?

Why do countries exist, why do cities exist, why do cities have their own city councils, their own mayors, why do countries have their own governments? Why isn't there just one big government?

The reason is quite simple: geographics and demographics. Countries are formed (usually) out of a series of settlements that share the same language and culture. They are also linked geographically and so have access to certain resouces and also share similar needs.

Why did the British colonies in the Americas rebel against Great Britain? What was their beef with their leaders back on the British Iles?

They didn't feel that the British government represented their interests. In addition to the colonies not having any actual representation in the government itself, it was apparent that the British government, some 4,000 miles away on the other side of the ocean, would pass laws and edicts that benefit the British Iles but that often worked to the detriment of the colonies. Thus the colonists rebelled and created their own government which would put the needs of the colonies first.

This is why Ashley doesn't feel humanity should be reliant on allies. We cannot expect the needs of humanity and the needs of an alien ally to always be aligned. Sometimes they will need to advance or protect their own interests and that could run counter to what humanity needs. We saw examples of this with the quarians, batarians, and more recently the humans in regards to the Citadel Council. In each case the Citadel Council preferred over all stability to the needs of the affore mentioned races. That doesn't make them evil, but if you are a batarian, quarian, or a human you need your own government, independent of the Council, which will always cater to your needs. Otherwise you are going to be forced to make sacrifices for the benefit of everyone else, and towards what end? It may sound selfish, but try to think of it like this:

When humanity's interests are sacrificed for galactic stability it isn't just you who is doing without, it is your friends, family, neighbhors, and children who are doing without. Would you rob your child of a bright future in exchange for making sure the salarian economy experienced a new boom? I sincerely doubt most would. After all, if you won't look out for what is best for your child then who will? It certainly won't be the Salarian Union.

Countries do not have friends, they have mutual interests. When two countries can benefit by working together they do so, but as soon as their interests are no longer aligned they start to drift apart. The Allies during WWII were deeply suspicious of one another. The Soviets felt America was trying to stack the new world order against them, the Americans thought the British were looking to expand their Empire, and the British thought the Soviets were looking to expand the Soviet Union. Even while working together they competed and tried to out-maneuver the other. It is the same with the species of Mass Effect.

Ultimately I support a human civilization that is as free from alien coercion as possible. If humanity can achieve it then that will mean a position in which human civilization has established itself as being more formidable, rich, and influential than all the other races. This is not an evil thing to strive for. It is no different from the United States establishing itself as the one of the world's only super powers following world war II, or even the world's sole super power after the end of the Cold War. Doing so allowed the American people to thrive and to enjoy an ease of life that few people on Earth can match.

The humans in Mass Effect should strive for nothing else. The Council races conspired to keep themselves at the top of the food chain for thousands of years. Nobody here ever complains about that. No, instead they only condemn humans for wanting the same thing.

The turians, salarians, and asari are more populous, wealthy, and influential than humantiy is. If the human race is to compete with them then we have to be willing to do whatever it takes. They never held anything back and neither should we.

Modifié par Shandepared, 08 avril 2010 - 07:36 .


#42
Wildecker

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Shandepared wrote...

Countries do not have friends, they have mutual interests. When two countries can benefit by working together they do so, but as soon as their interests are no longer aligned they start to drift apart. The Allies during WWII were deeply suspicious of one another. The Soviets felt America was trying to stack the new world order against them, the Americans thought the British were looking to expand their Empire, and the British thought the Soviets were looking to expand the Soviet Union. Even while working together they competed and tried to out-maneuver the other. It is the same with the species of Mass Effect.


Let me point out that countries can merge together and become a success. Spain was forged from four separate kingdoms before it set out to reconquer the Iberian peninsula (and a lot more, later). France grew from several independant king- and dukedoms into one. Prior to 1870 Germany had been a patchwork of kingdoms, principalities and independent cities for centuries. Agreed, the nations glued together during the 20th century have failed, sometimes at epic proportions (Yugoslavia pales in comparison to the former Soviet Union), but apparently it can be done.

I suppose a successful merger requires a shared threat of sufficient size to make your allies recognize the effort is worth it. Like being gobbled up by your big nasty neighbours or the invader sfrom across the sea.

#43
Silver

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I vote for Pro-Alien Coop, maybe I'm biased being a Star Trek Geek and all, but with out violent history (and sometimes our violent nature) I don't imagine humanity being a good "ruler" over other species.

Also, TIM's megalomania is pissing me of dearly ;)

#44
The RPGenius

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luk3us wrote...

Humans explore, expand and multiple. Its what we've done through out our entire history. This won't change once we reach space.

So I don't think there will actually be a choice between going down one road or the other. We'll going to be dominant, because its what we do and its what we always do. Despite some people trying to "place nice".


I seem to remember reading a codex or hearing some dialogue in the game about another species that attempted to do just that...what were they called?  Korguns?  Kronads?  Something like that.  I wonder how that ended up going for them?

#45
Nu-Nu

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I'm pro co-operation, why because I like having possible allies to count on when the going gets tough and I need help, I help them to help myself, which is kind of selfish but at the same time I do care about other aliens problem. Besides, if you ****** of all the other aliens, they'll probaly band together and could wipe out humanity, is that a risk worth taking? Do we really want to become the **** (the big enemy in world war 2, for some reason it blocks the name) of the universe? I don't.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 08 avril 2010 - 10:30 .


#46
kreite

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 aliens FTW!!!

#47
Wildecker

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Let's see ... in the beginning, there were the Asari.

Not much later they encountered the Salarians and got along.



A little bit later their little council of two ran into the Rachni and needed more muscle, fast, so the Salarians recruited the Krogans. The Rachni went down and got wiped out, completely.



Then the Krogans got ideas. The council needed new muscle, fast. Enter the Turians ... who fought the existing Krogans, while the Salarians made sure there would be less Krogans around to fill the gaps in the future. There's your council: Salarians for the know-how, Asari for the talking and the Turians hold the big stick in case the Asari can't talk you out of any dangerous ideas.



And now enter the Humans ... they're less smooth talkers than the Asari, their scientists have to catch up to the Salarian headstart, but they have a big stick, too. Who's bound to get nervous about his seat on the council?

#48
Goodwood

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My father has a phrase that I often like to use in this kind of debate: "enlightened self-interest."

Basically, this principle suggests that, by helping others and being willing to cooperate, you open up opportunities for others to return the favor. Technically speaking, it's a form of positive feedback loop that encourages the continued building of trust and fellowship. Insofar as the Mass Effect universe, the asari seem to serve as the ultimate conduit for this kind of thinking; their ability to mate with nearly any other species encourages closer relations on a larger scale.

The screwball state of world affairs in the past century should be warning enough of the dangers of self-imposed isolationism and/or aggressive dominance of one's neighbors. Nearly all of the international crises of the last sixty years can be directly traced to the culture of imperialism that ran rampant throughout the Ninteenth Century and pre-World War I Twentieth Century. Things were not helped by the half-assed attempts at international relations that took place between the wars, when the League of Nations served as little more than a patina for continued aggression. Frankly, I don't see us as being capable of doing anything close to the kinds of things that humanity accomplished before finding the Prothean ruins unless and until we can learn to be more accepting of our fellows. And that means learning how to coexist as a species in such a way that international borders will become unneeded and obsolete.

In short, there's a damn good reason why the United Federation of Planets only accepted new species once they had developed warp drive and a united world government.

#49
gotthammer

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pro-Human Dominance.

Why?

"Imperium of Man"

Complete w/ 'double eagle' banners/flags and massive gothic architecture...oh, and Space Marines and the Imperial Guard and Inquisitorial forces.

Good enough reason, methinks. :D (or not...I liked the Eldar more)



Kinda have to agree w/ Goodwood's post, but I was never a fan of the Federation (or of Star Trek, for the most part...).

That and 'Imperium of Man' or 'Galactic Empire' (from Star Wars or Legend of the Galactic Heroes) sounds better. :P

#50
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Goodwood wrote...

 And that means learning how to coexist as a species in such a way that international borders will become unneeded and obsolete.

In short, there's a damn good reason why the United Federation of Planets only accepted new species once they had developed warp drive and a united world government.


Star Trek is a naive fantasy. We will never have a world without borders because we will never have a single culture, or equality. There will always be haves and have nots and that extends to entire nations. The West propers because other regions suffer. We enjoy cheap goods because laborers in poorer countries aren't affored the same protections that we are.

The citizens of Manchester will never want the rulers in Moscow passing judgement over them. One world government can't work, at least not in a way that benefits everybody. In the end a one world government would just give political and legal justification for the old boy's club to keep the others down, as they always have.

Diplomacy and international relations have not created the relative "peace" of the last 50 years. That has been the result of economy and United States (and formerly) Soviet military might. Not to mention MAD. Were it not for WMD's we'd have likely seen another massive war.

When a country reaches out to other countries all that happens is that they are taken advantage of. Governments promote self-interest, not honor or respect. Take the last year as an example.

Barack Obama has reached out to the entire world and apologized profusely for the United States. What has that accomplished? Nothing tangible. The United States is more respected and liked in opinion polls, but what have the governments done? Have they pledged troops for Afghanistan, or actaully allowed their troops to see combat? Has Russia helped the United States against Iran, or China against North Korea? Has Japan moved nearer to the United States? The opposite is happening.

International relations is not a popularity contest. The Human Systems Alliance doesn't need to be popular to have allies. All they need to do is ensure that it is more profitable for her rivals to do business with the Systems Alliance than to make war. As the SA's military grows, her sphere of influence gets bigger, and her economy continues to thrive. All that wealth ensures that the Systems Alliance is not worth fighting.

It has nothing to do with respect or good will and everything to do with capabilities.