321 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

1. "Shepard should look out for the Human kind because he is Human" is a valid argument. Because the aliens care primarily for their own races even by showing good will toward others. Like Mordin puts it: "Life is negotiation. We all want. We all give to get what we want." Therefore, the "balance of the Force" is upheld sort of naturally. Unless, of course, one of the parties starts to play give-away in favor of another.

2. But there is more to it. Ever since the Rachni Wars the Council has been trying to impose evil peace and stability on the controlled space. After the Krogan Rebellions they pretty much succeded. They try to conserve the situation, by imposing restrictions on space exploration, scientific research and arms production. And also by refusing to acknowledge threats and respond accordingly to them. Which made them obviously a some millionth sitting duck for the Reapers.

But there are also perils beyond the Reapers. Including the one called "thermal death of the universe". Theoretically, it can't be avoided, but the theory is always incomplete. That's why it is imperative that the ... well, intelligence propagate itself and strive for power (in every meaning of this word, that are actually all one and the same), without any boundaries, and without self-imposed limitations in the first place.

And in Mass Effect the Humans show this lust for unlimited power (mwa-ha-ha-ha!!!) more than any other race. Therefore, the Humans are a supreme race indeed. Which is clearly confirmed in-game by the special attention of "the supremest" race to date, namely, the Reapers.

Therefore, the so called Galactic community may tag along and contribute something creative of their own to the agenda of the universal conquest. Or they may lag behind and stagnate to total oblivion, if they please so. But any opposition that gets in the way of the Humans (like that of the Reapers, and the silly Council conventions) is to be crushed by any means necessary. And if it includes any number of "lives" of individual specimens of different lifeforms both terran and extraterrestrial, then so be it. Because anything else is total extinction of the life.

(And any "ad NАZI" counter-argument to this little wall of text will be welcomed by an equally idiotic joke.)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 avril 2010 - 10:12 .

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. "Shepard should look out for the Human kind because he is Human" is a valid argument. Because the aliens care primarily for their own races even by showing good will toward others. Like Mordin puts it: "Life is negotiation. We all want. We all give to get what we want." Therefore, the "balance of the Force" is upheld sort of naturally. Unless, of course, one of the parties starts to play in favor of another.

Nothing wrong with "We all give to get what we want:" - compared to "We take what we want, and Gawd help the sorry bastard who tries to stop us!"

At http://www.webscript.../0671319841.htm you can read a novel (by James H. Schmitz), of which I especially recommend the final chapter where an alien council evaluates a botched attempt at invading human territory.
They come to the conclusion that the current human government is set on a course of nonhostile interaction with alien species - not because it thinks it could not win a war or a number of wars, rather because it is afraid that humans will turn on each other again when they eventually run out of enemies to destroy.
And therefore these aliens rule that everyone who foolishly attempts to wake that peculiar human dragon will answer to that council, too.

Modifié par Wildecker, 08 avril 2010 - 12:52 .

[enormousmoonboots]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. But there is more to it. Ever since the Rachni Wars the Council has been trying to impose evil peace and stability on the controlled space. After the Krogan Rebellions they pretty much succeded. They try to conserve the situation, by imposing restriction on space exploration, scientific research and arms production. And also by refusing to acknowledge threats and respond accordingly to them. Which made them obviously a some millionth sitting duck for the Reapers.

...what?

[Zulu_DFA]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. But there is more to it. Ever since the Rachni Wars the Council has been trying to impose evil peace and stability on the controlled space. After the Krogan Rebellions they pretty much succeded. They try to conserve the situation, by imposing restriction on space exploration, scientific research and arms production. And also by refusing to acknowledge threats and respond accordingly to them. Which made them obviously a some millionth sitting duck for the Reapers.

...what?

What "what?"?

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
 Let us change the words a little
bit: "You have to support Britain
because it's your country!"

Would you agree or disagree?

Why should I agree with that? Do you have a reason for why I should care about Britain/"insert-country-here"?

Shandepared
wrote...
Doing so allowed the American people to thrive and to enjoy
an ease of
life that few people on Earth can match.

And? Domninace is still not a necessity. Let's take the Kingdom of Sweden as an example. They haven't been dominant in any way in almost two centuries and yet their people have thrived and enjoyed an ease of life that doesn't exist in very many countries, possibly most countries.

Shandepared wrote...
When humanity's
interests are sacrificed for galactic stability it isn't
just you who is doing without, it is your friends, family,
neighbhors, and children who are doing without. Would you rob your
child of a bright future in exchange for making sure the salarian
economy experienced a new boom? I sincerely doubt most would. After all,
if you won't look out for what is best for your child then who will? It
certainly won't be the Salarian Union.

Okay, if the sacrifice of my child and I would facilitate a new Salarian economic boom, which in turn would help the Salarian people I fail to see the "negative" part. I'm not saying that I would and I'm not saying that I wouldn't do it. I'm not saying anything about my actions, only wondering about your opinion.

Another example, an individual who has gained citizenship of the Turian Hierarchy will be looked after. It doesn't matter if it's a Human, Salarian, Volus or something else. Obviously I don't have any personal experience but judging by "Mass Effect lore" and
the codex it's somewhere along those lines.

Why do you think that the needs of one individual Human differ that much from the individual Turian?(If that is what you think.)

Shandepared wrote...
The Council
races conspired to keep themselves at the top of the food
chain for thousands of years. Nobody here ever complains about that. No,
instead they only condemn humans for wanting the same thing.

That's "their"(the forumites) problem, not mine,

Shandy, I understand what you are saying but you still haven't given me any reasons for why I should care.

What you said was IF humanity wants to be able to do A and B, dominance must be achieved.

I will die someday. You will die someday. Humanity will die out someday. The theories about the universe is that it will die out someday. Tell me why I should be caring more about one species when all species will die out in the end.

Shandepared wrote...



Ultimately I support a human
civilization that is as free from alien coercion as possible. If
humanity can achieve it then that will mean a position in which human
civilization has established itself as being more formidable, rich, and
influential than all the other races. This is not an evil thing to
strive for. It is no different from the United States establishing
itself as the one of the world's only super powers following world war
II, or even the world's sole super power after the end of the
Cold War. Doing so allowed the American people to thrive and to enjoy an
ease of life that few people on Earth can match.

If we should be SUPER "correct" we should add that the U.S.A being the sole superpower is still a
matter of some debate. The debate is whether or not it is a hegemony, a besieged globalpower/great power or a superpower.




EDIT: For some reason the text looks differently when it is published compared to how it looks when I write it.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 08 avril 2010 - 08:47 .

[ShadyKat]

Bigdoser wrote...

Human's are short sighted its pretty obvious if you look at our history. Plus we have only been on the galatic stage for like 50 years.

It's actually less then that. It's more around 30 years. And to think someone that new on such a stage, has the gall to think they should run it all. I could see humans having what happened to the Krogan, happening to them if they push the other races too much.

[Goodwood]

To a certain extent, Talid was right. However, he was speaking from a position of the snake in the grass; he's anti-human in public in order to mask his preying on humans for his own ends (in essence, he's a turian Mafioso).



Flip that bit and you have folks like Timmy, who are anti-alien because they feel like they're the field mouse that the snake is stalking (the snake being the aliens). This is the essence of the reactionary, who fears change in all forms because it may threaten their position in the universe.

[UpDownLeftRight]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. But there is more to it. Ever since the Rachni Wars the Council has been trying to impose evil peace and stability on the controlled space. After the Krogan Rebellions they pretty much succeded. They try to conserve the situation, by imposing restriction on space exploration, scientific research and arms production. And also by refusing to acknowledge threats and respond accordingly to them. Which made them obviously a some millionth sitting duck for the Reapers.

...what?

What "what?"?

I'm not really sure what he/she(enormousmoonboots) means as well. If I have to make an uneducated guess I'd guess that he/she doesn't understand what you mean with the term 'evil peace'. Hope that helps you, Zulu!

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 08 avril 2010 - 08:51 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

The RPGenius wrote...

2. Frankly, we SHOULD all work together because we ARE all equal. Sorry that you don't think that's a good reason, but sentient beings are sentient beings to me. Thane is as capable of spirituality, Samara as capable of discipline and honor, Liara of innocence held, lost, and regained, Wrex of inner reflection, Tali of friendship and determination, Garrus of hunger for justice, Legion of desire and ambition, Grunt of satisfaction and hedonism, and Mordin of...well, EVERYTHING, as any human. They think and feel, and that makes them people in my eyes. And so pro-human dominance, to me, is the same thing as any human group trying to unfairly subjugate other humans and rule them as tyrants. Maybe morality for morality's sake isn't good enough a reason in your eyes, but it is in mine, and that's what I've got for my major reason.

It's not that I claim that we are not equal, nor do I claim that we are.
Scenario A: We are all equal. Okay, I guess that's good for us/them/whatever. But why does that mean that I have to treat them well/work together with them?

An example: I'm Jane/John Shepard, tell me why I should want to work together with aliens.*

Sure, they are sentient and sapient but there is no scientific law that tells us that they must be treated well because of that.

*Disclaimer: I called myself J. Shepard not because I want to be "sooo cool, l33t, noob, pwn!" but to distance the "thinker/forumite" from the character.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. "Shepard should look out for the
Human kind because he is Human" is a valid argument. Because the aliens
care primarily for their own races even by showing good will toward
others. Like Mordin puts it: "Life is negotiation. We all want. We all
give to get what we want." Therefore, the "balance of the Force" is
upheld sort of naturally. Unless, of course, one of the parties starts
to play in favor of another.

I'm Jane/John Shepard and Humanity is my species. Good for me/them/whatever. Why should I care about them?
(Genuine question)

2. But there is more to it. Ever
since the Rachni Wars the Council has been trying to impose evil peace
and stability on the controlled space. After the Krogan Rebellions they
pretty much succeded. They try to conserve the situation, by imposing
restriction on space exploration, scientific research and arms
production. And also by refusing to acknowledge threats and respond
accordingly to them. Which made them obviously a some millionth sitting
duck for the Reapers.

Okay, maybe the council has been inept.(I'm not denying that they are, nor am I saying that they are not.)  But why does that mean that I should care more for my species?

And in Mass Effect
the Humans show this lust for unlimited power (mwa-ha-ha-ha!!!) more
than any other race. Therefore, the Humans are a supreme race indeed,
that is clearly confirmed in-game by the special attention of "the
supremest" race to date, namely, the Reapers.

1. Correct me if I am mistaken. One of the reasons for why Humans is a Supreme Race is because they show lust for unlimited power?

2. Humanity did not do anything against Nazara/Sovereign. I(J. Shepard) & co did. The fifth fleet did. The rest of Humanity did not do anything. The same can be said of the other species. The Asari/Salarian/Turians did not do anything in the "Battle of The Citadel", part of their fleets did.

(And
any "ad NАZI" counter-argument to this little wall of text will
be welcomed by an equally idiotic joke.)

I do not blame you, those "counter"-arguments are attempts at jocularity at best.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 08 avril 2010 - 09:25 .

[DPSSOC]

ShadyKat wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Human's are short sighted its pretty obvious if you look at our history. Plus we have only been on the galatic stage for like 50 years.

It's actually less then that. It's more around 30 years. And to think someone that new on such a stage, has the gall to think they should run it all. I could see humans having what happened to the Krogan, happening to them if they push the other races too much.

To be fair our history does have examples of young, inexperienced, people who rose from out of nowhere to the top of the ladder and did remarkably well.

Experience is an asset but it can also be a liability.  The longer you're in something the deeper the rutt you dig and the harder it is to get out of.  The Turians, Salarians, and Asari have been hiding behind the same military tactics for millenia I think that shows how deep there rutt has gotten.  Humanity is a potential threat despite not being able to match any of the other races blow for blow in part because they're new to the field and they're thinking along different lines the Council races have never considered. 

[That Guy Raffy]

I am all for cooperation, but I really think it would extremely difficult in Mass Effect 3. I normally play Paragon, but some of the renegade choices seem to make sense becuase of this difficulty.

Shandepared wrote...
The Council
races conspired to keep themselves at the top of the food
chain for thousands of years. Nobody here ever complains about that. No,
instead they only condemn humans for wanting the same thing.

The council tries to stonewall Shepard no matter what, and the fact that the armies that can help you when you're on the the Paragon path will not help your case to have them help you.

Let me explain: In the first game where you saved Wrex, you basically gave the Krogan a fighting chance to help along side you by making them strengthen their numbers. You could have also done this by keeping the Genophage (sp?) cure in Mordin's Loyalty mission. Saving the Rachni queen did this as well. (Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellion as some individuals in the galaxy might see it). Also, if you rewrote the Geth during Legion's Loyalty mission, there's an army of Geth that may as well join you. Not only is Shepard setting him/herself up for some resistance from other species, he/she's also going to be seen as Saren 2.0.

Between having a Krogan, Rachni, and Geth army that will be ready for the Reapers, and doing this for the "Good of the Galaxy" (just like Saren), you will come across a lot of resistance from the main Council races. The only difference between you and Saren in their eyes is that you are fighting against the Reapers and not waving a white flag.

Not only do you have more than half the galaxy wanting you dead/hate you, the Council may also send another Spectre to find you (just like you did Saren). Full circle.

This in itself makes cooperation difficult to nearly impossible.

Modifié par That Guy Raffy, 08 avril 2010 - 10:18 .

[Goodwood]

I'm burning a Shandepared strawman in effigy right now...

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...


I explained why in a very long and detailed post. If none of that penetrated your brain then I can't help you. By all means, live in Britain but support some other country.

I did understand your post. It seems that our definitions of "a good reason" differ. Oh, not support e.g. Britain does not necessary mean supporting another country. It just means "not supporting Britain".

Yes, it is necessary. Sweden enjoys prosperity, but they are a small country with no influence. That's the benefit of a nation with a small population; you never even get the chance to play the political game. They don't move or shape the world and they never will.

Okay, I can understand what you mean but why do think that kind of influence is a necessity? Swedes can live their lives the way they want to live them. Sweden is rarely affected by other events in the world. When they are affected it is usually something that affects the rest of the world as well.(E.g. fluctuations in the global economy.)

But as you said, Sweden is a small country.
Let's take the pre-WWII U.S.A as an example. They were big, economically powerful, other nations couldn't influence them but they could influence others if they wanted to. Still they were free, independent. The people lived fairly well(for that day and age). They didn't truly need dominance over every other country to be free and independant.

Then you're a selfish person with no attatchment to the people around
you, those will come after you, or those who came before you. People
like you would accept anything as long as you had a comfortable
life.

In what way am I selfish? My question was why I should care more for one species than the rest and I said that I found no reason to. How is that being selfish?
Accept anything? Why would I ever do that and did I ever state that there was any value in my continued existance?  You seem have a number of preconceptions about me.
You may like me, you may dislike me but don't waste your own time
getting an opinion about someone you do not know.

I've been in leathal events. When the "lethality" has been pointed against others(some I do not even know) I have fought for their safety with all I can muster. When the "lethality" has been pointed to me, do you know the reaction? Oh. Just "Oh." Not sadness nor joy. Neutrality. But clearly I did survive all those encounters since I'm writing here.
Do not call me selfish, I would fight for your life, your rights with everything in my body.

If you think existence is so pointless then why don't you just kill yourself?

Why should I waste time killing myself when my death already is inexorable?

Am I being too frank here?

Ehm..I'm sorry, I'm not following. Frank about what?

It's true: all life in the universe will one day perish. So there's no point in living it. Personally I'd like to make life easier for my people, I'd like to see the ideals I believe in continue to thrive. That can't happen if I allow some other culture to dominate my own.

I understand your thinking and I'm not judging you in any way so I hope it didn't come across as if I were attacking you somehow.

Do you believe in anything?

That depends on what you define as believe. Believe as in political, religious, moral beliefs then my answer is "kind of no". I believe that humans should be allowed to live freely and decide their lives on their terms without anyone denying them that.

If you mean something else, please tell me!:happy:(genuine request)

Goodwood wrote...

I'm burning a Shandepared strawman in
effigy right now...

Ehm...why? 
To Shandepared: Seriously, is there some kind of insipid and childish hate against you by some on these forums? I've seen some people call you troll and the likes just because you voiced your opinion in different threads... Do people really have that big of a problem with someone elses opinion just because it's different from theirs? Wow...

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 09 avril 2010 - 02:16 .

[Nightwriter]

Miranda said "I believe in what Cerberus stands for".

Well, I believe in what the Council stands for.

They stand for a unison of the species, and for the galactic community. For the protection and defense of the many. Yes, they may make bad decisions, and they may often be wrong, but what's important is their symbolic value, what their image stands for, regardless of who's in power of what the leaders think.

Banding together for the sake of us all is important and meaningful. That's why I'm pro alien cooperation.

[Goodwood]

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

I'm burning a Shandepared strawman in
effigy right now...

Ehm...why? 
To Shandepared: Seriously, is there some kind of insipid and childish hate against you by some on these forums? I've seen some people call you troll and the likes just because you voiced your opinion in different threads... Do people really have that big of a problem with someone elses opinion just because it's different from theirs? Wow...

It was a joke; I was basically equating Shandpatine's reply to a strawman argument, and humorously implying that I was going to burn said argument in a grand public display. I don't hate him, but he does tend to foam a bit at the mouth as he puts forth the same drivel again and again.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


They stand for a unison of the species, and for the galactic community. For the protection and defense of the many. Yes, they may make bad decisions, and they may often be wrong, but what's important is their symbolic value, what their image stands for, regardless of who's in power of what the leaders think.

The most noble thing about the Council is their propaganda.

There is no form of government that will ever exist that is not going to employ propaganda of some kind, nor any political body that will not try to promote itself in this way.

You must settle for the best and most truthful of these, and invest yourself in the one that aims for fairness, if imperfectly, and with error.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 09 avril 2010 - 02:33 .

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

Miranda said "I believe in what Cerberus stands for".

Well, I believe in what the Council stands for.

Genocide?

Nightwriter wrote...
They stand for a unison of the species, and for the galactic community. For the protection and defense of the many. Yes, they may make bad decisions, and they may often be wrong, but what's important is their symbolic value, what their image stands for, regardless of who's in power of what the leaders think.

Banding together for the sake of us all is important and meaningful. That's why I'm pro alien cooperation.

I'm pro-human cooperation.  I believe that we should work together as it's easier than going it alone or trying to get everyone to dance to our particular tune, but we must also make a strong push to forward our own ends.  If we don't push for what we want/need no one else will and we can only sacrifice so much for the sake of appearing reasonable.  My problem with cooperation as it's depicted in the game is that the advocates for it come across as saying humanity should roll over and ask the Council to kick us in the teeth just a little harder (personal opinion) which to me is unacceptable.

[enormousmoonboots]

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Ehm...why? 
To Shandepared: Seriously, is there some kind of insipid and childish hate against you by some on these forums? I've seen some people call you troll and the likes just because you voiced your opinion in different threads... Do people really have that big of a problem with someone elses opinion just because it's different from theirs? Wow...

I admit I've never liked him since he brought the 'it's all because you're filthy liberals' element to a Cerberus discussion and...what was the other thing, denying Native American genocide? Don't feel like raising my blood pressure by digging up that thread again. I've always considered bringing actual politics--particularly the superiority of your own party--into a video game discussion troll territory. Subtle trolling, but trolling nonetheless.

[Nightwriter]

DPSSOC wrote...

Genocide?

They've done things I disagree with, but the important thing is that they've done a hell of a lot less than Cerberus, and that each time they would argue they were trying to do the right thing.

I'm pro-human cooperation.  I believe that we should work together as it's easier than going it alone or trying to get everyone to dance to our particular tune, but we must also make a strong push to forward our own ends.  If we don't push for what we want/need no one else will and we can only sacrifice so much for the sake of appearing reasonable.  My problem with cooperation as it's depicted in the game is that the advocates for it come across as saying humanity should roll over and ask the Council to kick us in the teeth just a little harder (personal opinion) which to me is unacceptable.

I say I'm pro-alien cooperation because pro-humans seem to want human dominance.

I don't want dominance over the galaxy. I fight for equality for humans among the other races. I want us respected and given our due as equal citizens of the galactic community, on par with asari and turians and salarians

Once that is achieved and secured, my ambition stops there, and my goals turn toward defense of the galaxy as a whole.

[Bigdoser]

The RPGenius wrote...

Two reasons for cooperation, to me.

1. It's long-term pro-humanity anyway. Unless ME3 gives Renegades an option to commandeer the Reapers to destroy every non-human sentient out there, the long-term survival and success of the species depends on proving itself to other species and forging bonds with them--one species's superiority is not going to last forever, be it humanity or any other, no matter how effectively and ruthlessly Shepard sets it up. Inserting humanity into galactic affairs as an important and powerful, but desirable and amiable part is a safer and more moral way to guarantee the prosperity of humanity--not to mention that there are advancements and successes that other races will have that humanity won't, and they can share them if they're so inclined. A subjugated race isn't likely to make the advancements it could have, and thus humanity misses out on the opportunity to share those advancements as partners. Even Cerberus understands that much--the Illusive Man recognizes the brilliance Mordin brings to the table, Thane's incredible skills, Samara's great abilities, Tali's technical genius, and Grunt's (well, Okeer's) raw power. When the chips are down, the main head of pro-human movements is forced to recognize at least a small need for balance and inter-species cooperation.
2. Frankly, we SHOULD all work together because we ARE all equal. Sorry that you don't think that's a good reason, but sentient beings are sentient beings to me. Thane is as capable of spirituality, Samara as capable of discipline and honor, Liara of innocence held, lost, and regained, Wrex of inner reflection, Tali of friendship and determination, Garrus of hunger for justice, Legion of desire and ambition, Grunt of satisfaction and hedonism, and Mordin of...well, EVERYTHING, as any human. They think and feel, and that makes them people in my eyes. And so pro-human dominance, to me, is the same thing as any human group trying to unfairly subjugate other humans and rule them as tyrants. Maybe morality for morality's sake isn't good enough a reason in your eyes, but it is in mine, and that's what I've got for my major reason.

Very interesting post so pro alien cooperation will gain humanity the respect that they desire showing that they are not just in it for themselves.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

That Guy Raffy wrote...

I am all for cooperation, but I really think it would extremely difficult in Mass Effect 3. I normally play Paragon, but some of the renegade choices seem to make sense becuase of this difficulty.

Shandepared wrote...
The Council
races conspired to keep themselves at the top of the food
chain for thousands of years. Nobody here ever complains about that. No,
instead they only condemn humans for wanting the same thing.

The council tries to stonewall Shepard no matter what, and the fact that the armies that can help you when you're on the the Paragon path will not help your case to have them help you.

Let me explain: In the first game where you saved Wrex, you basically gave the Krogan a fighting chance to help along side you by making them strengthen their numbers. You could have also done this by keeping the Genophage (sp?) cure in Mordin's Loyalty mission. Saving the Rachni queen did this as well. (Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellion as some individuals in the galaxy might see it). Also, if you rewrote the Geth during Legion's Loyalty mission, there's an army of Geth that may as well join you. Not only is Shepard setting him/herself up for some resistance from other species, he/she's also going to be seen as Saren 2.0.

Between having a Krogan, Rachni, and Geth army that will be ready for the Reapers, and doing this for the "Good of the Galaxy" (just like Saren), you will come across a lot of resistance from the main Council races. The only difference between you and Saren in their eyes is that you are fighting against the Reapers and not waving a white flag.

Not only do you have more than half the galaxy wanting you dead/hate you, the Council may also send another Spectre to find you (just like you did Saren). Full circle.

This in itself makes cooperation difficult to nearly impossible.

I dig that storyline.  Though to be honest, The council races are more of cannon fodder than anything else as far as I am concerned, the Quarians, geth, Rachni, Krogan got more to add to the table then all the ships the council races have simply because They are willingly to give up their differences of each other.