321 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Oh really? Cerberus hasn't exterminated any species. Cerberus hasn't stood by while the people they are charged with protecting are annihilated by an alien invader.

No. In fact, they've directly and intentionally harmed the people they're trying to protect - humans - to achieve their own interests in... furthering human interests. Much worse, to me. Cerberus isn't a galactic power yet and therefore doesn't have the means to commit genocide. Otherwise I've no doubt they probably would have by now.

Did the Council save the quarians from mass genocide? No.

I never forgave them for that, it's a black mark against them for me, but the quarians had broken galactic law and the geth menace was significant.

Did they save the krogan or rachni? No.

Really? The rachni were slaughtering the whole galaxy, they were killing everything that moved.

The krogan the Council showed a great depth of respect and gratitude for... until they started slaughtering innocent worlds just like the rachni had to expand their territory.

Did they help protect the interests of the batarians or at least act as a negotiator? No.

You're arguing in support of the batarians? Have you seen the way they treat their people or handle their government? 

Did they uphold their legal obligation to defend humanity from the geth? No.

Which was totally lame, but they explained themselves. What's worse is that the Alliance wouldn't help.

The Council places limits on the ability of associate races to protect themselves, but is then reluctant to uphold its end of the bargain.

What is the worst thing Cerberus has done compared to that? Is Cerberus any worse than the Spectres or the STG?

Yes. Cerberus has done things the Council would NEVER approve of.

Remember that Saren was a ruthless murderer and a sadist for decades and yet he was still the Council's top agent. Look at the Spectres themselves; they are agents with the authority to summarily execute ANYONE without the benefit of the judicial system; of a fair trial. Do you think police should just be able to gun down suspects instead of taking them in and giving them a trial?

Who am I to say how present day legal systems should apply to galactic  peacekeeping? It's probably a thousand times more complex. Regardless, Spectres are carefully chosen and Saren was a very, very rare case.

Then of-course we must remembere that the Council does not grant a voice or vote to any of the associate races. These "lesser" races are free to share their opinions with the Council but they can never affect its rulings. They either must comply or they are forced to exile themselves since they can't compete with the Council's power.

Oh, come on. The Council has to make sure all these races don't revolt or start war, because most of them could do significant damage if they did. These "lesser" races are not without sway.

What if the volus suddenly took their financial skills elsewhere? What if the hanar became upset and started using their drell a little too freely? What if any of the races decided to fly into the Terminus Systems out of spite and triggered war? The Council can't just treat them carelessly.

Like I said, the propaganda espouses some noble ideals but nothing else. The Council's organization, history, and methods show them to be selfish imperialists carving up the galaxy in spheres of influence.

The galaxy is already carved into spheres of influence. So is the world. That's unavoidable. I'd still take the Council over Cerberus any time, imperfect as they are.

[Bigdoser]

Shandepared wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Very interesting post so pro alien cooperation will gain humanity the respect that they desire showing that they are not just in it for themselves.

A complete fantasy, in other words.

I disagree, why would anyone want to help you if you trample all over them?

Modifié par Bigdoser, 09 avril 2010 - 03:16 .

[Mrs Vakarian]

My whole point is that divided, we're totally screwed against the onslaught of the Reapers. Together, we just might have a chance. I am, and always will be Pro-Alien Cooperation, and I took pleasure in telling the Illusive man to bugger off.



“Coming together is a beginning. Keeping together is progress. Working together is success.” -Henry Ford

[Bigdoser]

Mrs Vakarian wrote...

My whole point is that divided, we're totally screwed against the onslaught of the Reapers. Together, we just might have a chance. I am, and always will be Pro-Alien Cooperation, and I took pleasure in telling the Illusive man to bugger off.

“Coming together is a beginning. Keeping together is progress. Working together is success.” -Henry Ford

Nice saying thats going into my sig.

[Bigdoser]

Shandepared wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

I disagree, why would anyone want to help you if you trample all over them?

What they want is what is easy and profitable. It has nothing to do with respect. Governments are not people.

sry for the double post

I think it will help humanity to have more allies than enemies.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 09 avril 2010 - 03:23 .

[PTPR]

Wow....

I believe that, yes, we should support our own first but if you are going to refuse to co-exist with others that is a problem.

Yes, the council is stupid, but every government that has ever existed is stupid.

[PTPR]

Well okay I agree with you then.

Except I don't like Cerberus at all........

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't want dominance over the galaxy. I fight for equality for humans among the other races. I want us respected and given our due as equal citizens of the galactic community, on par with asari and turians and salarians

Once that is achieved and secured, my ambition stops there, and my goals turn toward defense of the galaxy as a whole.

I agree in essence with this, but since in Mass Effect the different species have definite 'human-like' qualities, then I personally believe that it'll be an ongoing thing. Humanity will never be as respected as the Turians if anything simply because we haven't been around for as long (our accomplishments mean essentially nothing therefore in comparison, no matter how grandiose they are)

I'm not pro-Human Dominance really, I am pro-Cerberus in that I believe that Cerberus is the only ones really willing to put the money where their mouth is and do something about it, be it perceived in-equalities or actual. I am pro-Human however mainly because I think it's naive optimism to think that the Council races will ever think about other species to the same extent as their own (which is why I also put Anderson on the 'throne,' because he isn't as toxic as Udina in my personal opinion - and this would go a long way in promoting Humanity's place as equals to the rest of the galaxy without reinforcing people's opinions that Humanity is a bully, which I personally think would of happened with Udina)

I agree with Shandepared's comments to be absolutely honest, but I still look towards ensuring alliances with the other species because we all benefit from diversity. I just don't want to sacrifice my sense of humanity, my sense of identity in order to do so. 

Modifié par Arijharn, 09 avril 2010 - 03:40 .

[PTPR]

@shandepared That makes sense. I never considered their ways to be "good" but I like the way you are approaching it.

Modifié par PTPR, 09 avril 2010 - 03:38 .

[Tilarta]

Nobody can stand alone.



That's pretty much my motivation.



We need to band together to fight the Reapers.



Plus, other then quirks of biology, I see no difference between Turian, Batarian and any one of the sentient races out there.

[Bigdoser]

Tilarta wrote...

Nobody can stand alone.

That's pretty much my motivation.

We need to band together to fight the Reapers.

Plus, other then quirks of biology, I see no difference between Turian, Batarian and any one of the sentient races out there.

very true we can fight and support humanity but we can't forget we are fighting for everyone else as well.

[Nightwriter]

Look - the reason I believe in the Council is not because of the people behind those consoles or the decisions they make. It's because of the people I travel with.

My whole crew is made up of aliens. Radically different individuals from radically different and even questionable cultures - and yet they've all shown themselves to be remarkable and deeply bonded friends. And these friends of mine, they're part of those races who sit behind that bench making these faulty decisions over the rest of us.

So it's not the Councilors or their methods that show me the value and the importance of the galactic community, or make me believe in it - it's people like Garrus and Mordin and Liara and Tali and Wrex. They're the ones who make me see what a friendship between the species can really be, what it really means, and how important it is to preserve that bond.

Look at your crew and you'll see this issue is bigger than politics or government. It's about friendship. We should fight as one, we should laugh as one, and we should mourn as one. Cerberus would deny that friendship, deny what's really important.

[Bigdoser]

Nightwriter wrote...

Look - the reason I believe in the Council is not because of the people behind those consoles or the decisions they make. It's because of the people I travel with.

My whole crew is made up of aliens. Radically different individuals from radically different and even questionable cultures - and yet they've all shown themselves to be remarkable and deeply bonded friends. And these friends of mine, they're part of those races who sit behind that bench making these faulty decisions over the rest of us.

So it's not the Councilors or their methods that show me the value and the importance of the galactic community, or make me believe in it - it's people like Garrus and Mordin and Liara and Tali and Wrex. They're the ones who make me see what a friendship between the species can really be, what it really means, and how important it is to preserve that bond.

Look at your crew and you'll see this issue is bigger than politics or government. It's about friendship. We should fight as one, we should laugh as one, and we should mourn as one. Cerberus would deny that friendship, deny what's really important.

The funney thing is Night is that cerb commits crimes on humanity for the sake of humanity

awesome post BTW

Modifié par Bigdoser, 09 avril 2010 - 04:06 .

[PTPR]

I understand why people are thinking that human dominance is bad. A lot of the awesome crew members are aliens.

But what I think what Shanepared is trying to say is that we can't rely on the council because they don't have our best interests at heart. They have their's. In the end, if it's us or them, they'll choose themselves everytime. We need to rely on ourselves.

Also, I chose to save the council in the first game. I stand by that descision.

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

PTPR wrote...

Well okay I agree with you then.
Except I don't like Cerberus at all........

I'd consider reigning them in because they might have too much freedom. However I'm also willing to consider that their autonomy is what gives humanity an edge. Cerberus' competitors are constrained by politics and law. Perhaps after we've secured or position on top of the hill we'll slap a leash on the dog.

That will be quite a trick when you've served him the Collector Base on a silver platter. And this dangerous illusion is exactly what the former people in power initially thought about Stalin or a certain Austrian private. Or about Manuel Noriega and Saddam Hussein.

[Bigdoser]

PTPR wrote...

I understand why people are thinking that human dominance is bad. A lot of the awesome crew members are aliens.
But what I think what Shanepared is trying to say is that we can't rely on the council because they don't have our best interests at heart. They have their's. In the end, if it's us or them, they'll choose themselves everytime. We need to rely on ourselves.
Also, I chose to save the council in the first game. I stand by that descision.

So you rely on cerb? I think TIM is not there to help humanity he just want's to get more power and you shepard is the asset he need's to get him that said power. Also I think the collector base won't benefit humanity in any way.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 09 avril 2010 - 04:31 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Friendships between individuals does not prove anything because the larger groups they belong to are incapable of having individual friendships.

Plenty of Chinese and American citizens are friends with one another, exaclty what significance does that mean for American and Chinese relations on the national leve? None.

Sometimes you need to look at the small picture to remember what's important, and what you should be fighting for.

How many bodies of power have lost sight of what it's all really about, simply because they've been doing what they've been doing too long and concern themselves only with the big picture?

And @ Bigdoser - thanks!