321 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

He still was what the nation needed after that poor excuse for a President that the US had before that. Andrew Jackson stood up to South Carolina and made sure the Union wouldn't dissolve. Shows you how weak some leaders are in comparison.

[Bigdoser]

Shandepared wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

He would have been impeached you know if he wasn't shot.  Most likely anyway.

Getting assassinated by a Confederate was the best thing for his legacy.

I think you should look at what they did in their life than looking at how they died. I like the fact that he fought against the slave trade and the first step for people like me to having rights.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 09 avril 2010 - 06:32 .

[Bigdoser]

Shandepared wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

I think you should look at what they did in their life than looking at how they died. I like the fact that he fought against then slave trade

I think you should follow your own advice. Perhaps then you'd understand what I was talking about.

Care to eloborate?

Modifié par Bigdoser, 09 avril 2010 - 06:35 .

[Goodwood]

Shandepared wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

I think you should look at what they did in their life than looking at how they died. I like the fact that he fought against then slave trade

I think you should follow your own advice. Perhaps then you'd understand what I was talking about.

I think we've deviated far enough from the topic at hand.

That said, I'm of the firm opinion that Lincoln would have been staunchly pro-Council and pro-cooperation.

[Nightwriter]

FoFoZem wrote...

Ew. Lincoln disgusts me. I hate that man.

Anyway, I would be pro-human. Mainly because it seems like my Shepard, or even Shepard in general, has been doing everything for the sake of humanity.

Sure you could blow up the collector base, or save the council, but in the end humans still have power.

It makes little sense for us, as humans being bound by human psychology, to go out of our way to help other people when the position we want is so near. Historically speaking, in the Mass Effect universe, humans and other species don't much get along.

We have the First Contact War, the fact that we essentially run council space, and general anti-human sentiment.

We are not entirely respected, and granted that is our fault, but there is no point in weakening ourselves for the betterment of some aliens.

Now, I don't think this is very fair. If you ask me the First Contact War was an accident and a huge misunderstanding, a bad situation altogether.

And I'd argue that probably every new race inducted into the Citadel community gets a little adverse attention at first, simply because... they're new. Add to that the fact that humanity got very far very fast and a little animosity is understandable.

And who says humans and other species don't get along? Everywhere you'll see examples of humans and aliens getting along, from the Eternity bar to your own ship. The Codex even tells you humans and salarians get along very well.

Beyond that... he who is out for himself is out by himself. We're galactic adults now and it's time we grew up and started making friends like responsible members of society instead of arguing about who keeps poking who and who gets the biggest tonka truck.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 09 avril 2010 - 06:37 .

[Goodwood]

Nightwriter wrote...

FoFoZem wrote...

Ew. Lincoln disgusts me. I hate that man.

Anyway, I would be pro-human. Mainly because it seems like my Shepard, or even Shepard in general, has been doing everything for the sake of humanity.

Sure you could blow up the collector base, or save the council, but in the end humans still have power.

It makes little sense for us, as humans being bound by human psychology, to go out of our way to help other people when the position we want is so near. Historically speaking, in the Mass Effect universe, humans and other species don't much get along.

We have the First Contact War, the fact that we essentially run council space, and general anti-human sentiment.

We are not entirely respected, and granted that is our fault, but there is no point in weakening ourselves for the betterment of some aliens.

Now, I don't think this is very fair. If you ask me the First Contact War was an accident and a huge misunderstanding, a bad situation altogether.

And I'd argue that probably every new race inducted into the Citadel community gets a little adverse attention at first, simply because... they're new. Add to that the fact that humanity got very far very fast and a little animosity is understandable.

And who says humans and other species don't get along? Everywhere you'll see examples of humans and aliens getting along, from the Eternity bar to your own ship. The Codex even tells you humans and salarians get along very well.

Beyond that... he who is out for himself is out by himself. We're galactic adults now and it's time we grew up and started making friends like responsible members of society instead of arguing about who keeps poking who and who gets the biggest tonka truck.

QFT.

Which makes it all the more silly to throw away such budding interstellar friendships in the name of fulfilling some petty ambition to rule the galaxy.

[Nightwriter]

Goodwood wrote...

Which makes it all the more silly to throw away such budding interstellar friendships in the name of fulfilling some petty ambition to rule the galaxy.

That's what I feel like all this comes down to - if you want to rule the galaxy or not.

People who think humans ought to rule the galaxy often do take the darker "pragmatic" side.

[Goodwood]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


And who says humans and other species don't get along? Everywhere you'll see examples of humans and aliens getting along, from the Eternity bar to your own ship. The Codex even tells you humans and salarians get along very well.

Once again, the interactions between individuals do not mean a damned thing on the scale of governments. The Council races do not work together because they are 'friends'. They do it because it is mutually beneficial. Nothing more, nothing less. They fear the humans because humanity has shown that it can oppose them, that it doens't need to work with them.

That codex entry does in fact refer to the two species as a whole.

Nightwriter wrote...

That's what I feel like all this comes down to - if you want to rule the galaxy or not.

People who think humans ought to rule the galaxy often do take the darker "pragmatic" side.

Idealism is for the ignorant and naive.

That is your opinion. Not even remotely close to any sort of empirical fact.

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

That will be quite a trick when you've served him the Collector Base on a silver platter.

Cerberus isn't invincible and the technology in that Collector base will benefit humanity as a whole, not just Cerberus. You think the Illusive Man is some kind of god, I don't. To hurt him all we have to do is go after his backers. The right people could take him down if they dedicated enough. Cerberus is nothing without its funding. After all, they are only human.

To use some of your own arguments: the Collector technology will not benefit "humanity as a whole". The Man will see to it that some if it may find a way to some chosen backers of Cerberus - enough to make them think twice about abandoning Cerberus, and enough to give them an edge against their competitors, human or alien. All he needs is to make those chosen few see that they gain while they're on his good side - and loose big if they fall out of favour with him.

And of cause YOU are branded a criminal and terrorist once you turn on those respectable Cerberus benefactors.

[Goodwood]

Nice non-answers, Shand.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

And who says humans and other species don't get along? Everywhere you'll see examples of humans and aliens getting along, from the Eternity bar to your own ship. The Codex even tells you humans and salarians get along very well.

Once again, the interactions between individuals do not mean a damned thing on the scale of governments. The Council races do not work together because they are 'friends'. They do it because it is mutually beneficial.

They do it because it's the right thing to do.

Nothing more, nothing less. They fear the humans because humanity has shown that it can oppose them, that it doens't need to work with them.

You sound like dark side Anakin or something. "They are holding me back! They fear my power, what I can become!! They know the dark side is stronger! They do not want me to advance!!!"

Nightwriter wrote...

That's what I feel like all this comes down to - if you want to rule the galaxy or not.

People who think humans ought to rule the galaxy often do take the darker "pragmatic" side.

Idealism is for the ignorant and naive.

And so are unyielding extremist arguments, it seems.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 09 avril 2010 - 07:07 .

[Goodwood]

That's just the thing, Shand. I didn't say it was better. I simply stated that your (petty) dismissal of Nightwriter's idea was based on your own opinion, and not fact. You were essentially saying "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story."

[Goodwood]

Ego, thy name is Shandepared.



This conversation is over.

[Massadonious1]

Newspapers report only the bad news.



When was the last time you saw the headline, "USA and Great Britan: Still Friends."

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

They do it because it's the right thing to do.

Read a damned newspaper, kid.

Get over yourself, kid.

Seriously - did you really expect us all to sit here and let you try to pass off pessimism as realism? That old thing again? Come on.

Cynicism is easy. Distrust is easy. Selfishness is easy. Most bad things are. Dismissing the idea of reaching out to others and trying to achieve something greater because "it'll never work"? That's the easiest thing there is.

It's not about idealism, it's about the pursuit of ideals. The standards we hold ourselves to should be unachievable, because it's the meaning of the struggle to achieve them that's important.

[Wildecker]

We're caught in the ultimate Prisoner's Dilemma here. If we all work together and commit all we have to the fight, we may survive. If one of us starts making plans for the time after the victory and holds back to weaken the others, we may well end on top of the others - provided they give their full effort, don't hold back and there is a victory.

So I guess we're screwed. See you all in the indoctrination chambers.