36 réponses à ce sujet

[Burito101]

 I stopped playing this game in December so I know a lot of changing has happened with this game, wether it be game mechanics, bug fixes, or any other sort of thing.  I was wondering if having a rogue stack massive amounts of cunning with lethality with your dex stat your second highest still a good stat build for a rogue that focuses on backstabs.

[Prismo]

From what I understand it is still the build with the highest damage potential but relies heavily on buffs to hit at a decent rate, while dex heavy builds offer great defence and hit rates at the expense of damage.

Modifié par Chazzwazza, 08 avril 2010 - 07:10 .

[jsachun]

Chazzwazza wrote...

From what I understand it is still the build with the highest damage potential but relies heavily on buffs to hit at a decent rate, while dex heavy builds offer great defense and hit rates at the expense of damage.

That's not right. Dex + Stregth builds can do a lot of damage as well, if you use Bows & Daggers. Cunning does not directly contribute to better backstab damage than strength. Cunning builds just get better armor penetration than strength builds.  

[dtsazza]

jsachun wrote...

Chazzwazza wrote...

From what I understand it is still the build with the highest damage potential but relies heavily on buffs to hit at a decent rate, while dex heavy builds offer great defense and hit rates at the expense of damage.

That's not right. Dex + Stregth builds can do a lot of damage as well, if you use Bows & Daggers. Cunning does not directly contribute to better backstab damage than strength. Cunning builds just get better armor penetration than strength builds.  

You're overlooking Lethality, which we can assume is a given for Cunning-based rogues.

[blademaster7]

jsachun wrote...
Cunning does not directly contribute to better backstab damage than strength. Cunning builds just get better armor penetration than strength builds.  

Not true. Exploit weakness increases your backstab damage based on your cunning.

Song of courage and tainted blade are also Cunning based.

Modifié par blademaster7, 08 avril 2010 - 08:02 .

[jsachun]

If you want to do big damage with daggers, your main stat should be dex and even with bows dex should be your main stat. If you want to play more as a party member that provide vital stat boosts to your companions, then cunning should be your main stat.

[jsachun]

blademaster7 wrote...

jsachun wrote...
Cunning does not directly contribute to better backstab damage than strength. Cunning builds just get better armor penetration than strength builds.  

Not true. Exploit weakness increases your backstab damage based on your cunning.

Song of courage and tainted blade are also Cunning based.

You are assuming that a rogue build must take the path of the assasin & bard. just like any other rpg game DEX is the main stat for a rogue. Secondary attributes are either cunning or strength depending on the Spec your likely to follow.

[Silensfurtim]

http://www.youtube.com/user/kutsuu03



watch my CUN Rogue videos.

[jsachun]

Silensfurtim wrote...

http://www.youtube.com/user/kutsuu03

watch my CUN Rogue videos.

Hey, that's awakening. Anyone can do silly amounts of damage like that in Awakening.

[Burito101]

So if I want to do good backstab damage, my dex stat should be my highest?

EDIT: I use the PS3 version so I don't know if that makes any difference.

Modifié par Burito101, 08 avril 2010 - 01:48 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

well in awakening i have 80 dex and 60cunning i use cunning with song of courage as an attack buffer for my other charaters so they hit higher add that with champion, guardian , and spirit healer and i doubt you'll ever have to lift a finger in a fight

[mosspit]

jsachun wrote...

You are assuming that a rogue build must take the path of the assasin & bard. just like any other rpg game DEX is the main stat for a rogue. Secondary attributes are either cunning or strength depending on the Spec your likely to follow.

A cun dw rogue shd take bard and assassin PRECISELY because it is cun focused (and not dex or str). I mean this is dicussion on cun rogues and not dex/str rogues isn't it? Dex rogues will probably get other specs.

From an optimal dps standpoint, Exploit weakness adds dmg that is proportional (iirc is 0.2 x (cun-10)) to cun score and will benefit from sky-high cun score. Bard's SoC is less powerful but still is better in the long run. The cun rogue just have to depend on party support to boost hit rate and hold aggro. After all, a dw cun rogue is a party dependent build. If you have DAO dlc Blood talents, the dmg goes up even more. Dex (at least in DAO) does not benefit from this type of dmg scaling abilities.

Awakening talents need dex so by all means raise dex to get those talents. Otherwise, no reason why cun rogues are not viable. For archers, its a different story. I believe dex is better stat for those.

Modifié par mosspit, 08 avril 2010 - 03:49 .

[OneBadAssMother]

Since the dexterity fix, been curious... it says DEX now increases the damage of daggers, so why place points in STR anymore?

[TBastian]

Strength improves the damage and attack of any melee weapon (even daggers) and allows you to use a broader selection of weapons and armor. While str rogues are unconventional, they are a lot tougher than other rogue types and are also capable of reaching high def/dodge. Basically the tradeoff is improved survivability vs a decrease in defense.
Dex and str rogues are mostly on the same level, damage-wise. Only cunning rogues, when working with party members, have a distinct lead in DPS.

Modifié par TBastian, 08 avril 2010 - 08:08 .

[Ronashavar]

Burito, I also play on the PS3 and unfortunately, the the dex bug has still NOT been fixed. From what I read in the forums this is not the case for the pc. Maker knows when it will be fixed for either of the consoles, but untill then the cunning rogue will indeed have the higher dps by far.

[OneBadAssMother]

TBastian wrote...

Strength improves the damage and attack of any melee weapon (even daggers) and allows you to use a broader selection of weapons and armor. While str rogues are unconventional, they are a lot tougher than other rogue types and are also capable of reaching high def/dodge. Basically the tradeoff is improved survivability vs a decrease in defense.
Dex and str rogues are mostly on the same level, damage-wise. Only cunning rogues, when working with party members, have a distinct lead in DPS.

Thanks for this, you've answered all me and my wife's questions and more =)

[Aghwee]

TBastian wrote...
 Only cunning rogues, when working with party members, have a distinct lead in DPS.

Not necessarly.

My favorite cunning rogue is a bow-user [and thus, not dependant on ANY party buffs (due to haste + bow bug)] and investing heavily in filling out your party to get buffs that would benefit you is only a minor increase in damage.

This becomes even more pointed in Awakening (with new bows, better rings/amulets, etc) as well as significantly better archer equipment as well as pieces that grant a higher backstab/critical bonus (which does work with bows).

Using this build you can white hit in Origins for anywhere between 100-200 dmg a hit,  ~300 a skill, ~500 arrow of slaying.  These damage amounts are doubled (or close to) when you land a critical.

For a min/max in Awakening, you can likely surpass a 2k AoS crit.

[TBastian]

"Not necessarily?"

Please recheck your post.  Please reread half the contents of this thread. Please check the facts out for yourself (wiki has most of them updated). Please compare for yourself the hit rate of a dex rogue vs a cunning one in Origins. Please compare the damage of a dex rogue archer with Accuracy vs a cunning one in Awakenings.
Please verify that the game you are playing is in fact Dragon Age: Origins, by Bioware.

Do you know Haste actually penalizes your hit rate? And Heroic Offense is only 1 spell point away for any mage?

Not necessary to make it function, yes. But not necessary to make it the rogue build with the highest DPS? Wrong.

Using this build you can white hit in Origins for anywhere between 100-200 dmg a hit,  ~300 a skill, ~500 arrow of slaying.  These damage amounts are doubled (or close to) when you land a critical.

People say the darndest things.

Modifié par TBastian, 12 avril 2010 - 08:35 .

[Aghwee]

TBastian wrote...
People say the darndest things.

You only had a few points between your clear efforts at trolling, so I'll address the points.

Hit rate in Origins and Awakening.

Origins: can be a bit of a problem, if you go pure cun.  Much less of a problem once you get geared out--a cun bow user is a much slower start than a dex.  I personally didn't mind missing, as my large crits made up the difference.  Also, with my party makeup, it worked perfectly--I took down 'heavy' units, while my team ripped apart weak mobs.  I also spammed a skill right after a miss to make sure I'd get damage in, and refresh the auto shot animation.

Awakening: Not an issue at all, gear gives huge stat bonuses, dex requirements for a lot of good gear and skills is high enough that even if you plug the minimum dexterity into your archer, and rely of equipment stat bonuses to cover you, you won't be missing any shots.


Accuracy in awakening with a pure dex, versus a SoC cun rogue/bard.

Accuracy is a dramatic shift in that you don't need to subclass bard for a strong shift in damage.  But there are a number of issues I had with that--are you trying to find a balance between the two, go for one, the other, both, or stacking SoCs and accuracy, etc. 

In the end, you're dealing with (3+0.1*[Cunn-10])  or (Dexterity-10)*.5% to +attack, (2+0.05*[Cunn-10]) or (Dex-10)% to +damage and (3+0.1*[Cunn-10])% or (Dexterity-10).5% to +critical chance with the upshot of the critical damage bonus from Accuracy that SoC does not grant.

Are you plugging any points into cunning, and how much? 

Also, are you then replacing the bard subclass, or are you stacking SoCs to min/max, and so on.

Enough for skills alone, enough for high armor pen on most heavily armored trash mobs, or just enough to skirt by on bosses.  Are you trying all of the difficult persuade dialogues [with the least amount of points spent on the skill], and so on.  Also, how many skills are you using, how many toggles do you want up, and do you use stamina draughts.

In the end, the cunning rogue is more useful, can do more things for the party, and is less dependant on party make-up, skill use, and is an all around no-thought, high DPS, easily played character.  If you want to completely and totally minmax the highest possible damage on a bow-user, and have an intolerable party makeup then pure dex is the way to go (with two NPC rogue/bards stacking SoC on you, and another buffbot which is a little more dependant on what you want to do).  But if you wanted to do that, play a 2H user--as the party make-up would be exactly the same, only that the pure Cun Rogue/Bards [which will have to be dagger users, as auto shots for NPCs are horribly slow] will gain the same buffs as you, and will make playing the game a little more fun, and you can have  haste up with a real purpose [other than just wanting to run fast, and through boring areas faster].

But, sadly, the game doesn't have much to do after you complete all quests given--you can't "roam."  So in my mind, sparing a little bit of damage [or gaining some, depending on the situation], and gaining a stronger party member which has high damage, survivability, can persuade and intimidate every attemp, pick any lock/trap/disarm and not rely on any other party member for high sustained DPS is a major upshot over a significantly less party-friendly player.

Also, you tried to make a point against me by repeating what I said [eg. haste] in your troll.  So please, heed your own advice.

Modifié par Aghwee, 13 avril 2010 - 03:29 .

[TBastian]

Do not defend yourself with such a ridiculous attempt at labels. Calling me a troll? I'm calling you a liar unless you can prove to me that you can actually "hit in Origins for anywhere between 100-200 dmg a hit, ~300 a skill, ~500 arrow of slaying. These damage amounts are doubled (or close to) when you land a critical." Retract that statement if you wish, because unless you do new players are gonna see it and get the wrong idea.

You admit you are missing a lot. That statement alone puts damage in favor of the dex archer, unless you have people around with Heroic Offense which is only 1 spell point away for any mage.

I've already told you to recheck your facts. I will not do so for again. Let the numbers speak for themselves:

Accuracy grants the following bonuses: +(Dexterity - 10)*1.5 to attack, +(Dexterity-10)*1 to damage, +(Dexterity-10)*0.5% to ranged critical chance, and +(Dexterity-10)*0.5% to ranged critical damage.*

The bard launches into an epic song of the party's exploits, gaining (3+0.1*[Cunn-10]) attack, (2+0.05*[Cunn-10]) damage and (3+0.1*[Cunn-10])% critical chance while singing. The bard can only sing one song at a time.**

Snipped from Dragon Age wiki. Do you know that each point in cunning only gives you 0.1 attack and 0.05 damage with Song of Courage? Meanwhile, each point in dexterity gives you 1.5 attack and 1 damage with Accuracy.. The odds are OVERWHELMINGLY against cunning.
FYI, Accuracy alone can max out an archer's critical chance by itself, if your dex is high enough.

You need 7 points in cunning to increase your armor penetration by 1. Assuming you took all the archery skills, you'd only have around 50 points left to invest in cunning. That's 7 armor penetration... invested in dex that's +50 damage with Accuracy. Good choice.
You only need 16 points in cunning to max out Coercion, 22 points if you want to max out Device Mastery iirc. You can rely on +cunning items to do the rest, and rogues have quite a few of those.
Two Dusk Rings (Nathaniel has one), Andruil's Belt, and the Helm of Honnleath already give you a total of +10. A shield with the Legion of the Dead banner gives you +17 or +20. Maxed out Device Mastery takes care of itself.
Your own argument for Awakenings defeats you. In Awakenings you can acquire enough +cunning items that boosting cunning (for misc purposes) becomes unnecessary.

You do not gain damage at all by investing in cunning. You do not get better at surviving (dexterity is the stat that gives +def, not cunning). Cunning doesn't affect intimidate. Persuade/pick lock/disarm has been covered is already Awakenings with at least 16/22 points invested in cunning.
And the clincher: the one advantage the cunning rogue has over the dex rogue is that Song of Courage improves the effectiveness of party members, something even Accuracy cannot beat if you have at least two allies who are two-handers.  Yet you chose to "market" only your own PC and his supposed "self-reliance" - a cunning character who is in fact vastly inferior to a dex character, from a single-character standpoint.
You are very, very misguided.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 avril 2010 - 05:16 .

[soteria]

I'm a big fan of cunning rogues, but saying that they're more party-independent than dex rogues is just wrong.

My favorite cunning rogue is a bow-user [and thus, not dependant on ANY party buffs (due to haste + bow bug)] and investing heavily in filling out your party to get buffs that would benefit you is only a minor increase in damage.



This becomes even more pointed in Awakening (with new bows, better rings/amulets, etc) as well as significantly better archer equipment as well as pieces that grant a higher backstab/critical bonus (which does work with bows).



Using this build you can white hit in Origins for anywhere between 100-200 dmg a hit, ~300 a skill, ~500 arrow of slaying. These damage amounts are doubled (or close to) when you land a critical.

If you're saying that you can get those numbers without tons of party buffs, I'm calling you a liar. Maybe by swapping three max-cunning rogues through your party with song of courage, but otherwise, no, because what you're saying is you average close to 175 on a hit, in Origins. Suuuure.



Just the fact that I can't justify your claims with reality would already make me question the rest of your argument, even if you hadn't tried to dismiss TBastian with the "troll" comment. I don't always agree with him, but he's not a troll, and using that on anyone who disagrees with you just makes you look desparate.



High cunning works great for DW rogues because of all the bonuses to backstabs. It starts to look less valuable on an archer when all you're gaining (over dex) is a little bit of armor pen plus the benefits from song of courage. You're also a lot squishier and need help hitting stuff, moreso for bow users than dagger users. And then if you consider that a ranger pet will probably do more damage and provide more utility than Bard will, and not need any cunning at all... /shrug. Just remember, the more mages you have the less valuable song of courage is.



I eagerly await being called another troll for daring to disagree.

[DWSmiley]

soteria wrote...

I'm a big fan of cunning rogues, but saying that they're more party-independent than dex rogues is just wrong.

[High cunning works great for DW rogues because of all the bonuses to backstabs. It starts to look less valuable on an archer when all you're gaining (over dex) is a little bit of armor pen plus the benefits from song of courage. You're also a lot squishier and need help hitting stuff, moreso for bow users than dagger users. And then if you consider that a ranger pet will probably do more damage and provide more utility than Bard will, and not need any cunning at all... /shrug. Just remember, the more mages you have the less valuable song of courage is.

I agree though I've built my rogues the other way around.  My dex DW is in the midst of battle, so high defense is sweet.  There would be no need if someone is tanking, of course, but I find no-tank parties more interesting now.
Though it has to be said - saving Ferelden has become a tankless task. 

Whereas my cunning archer rogue is not getting attacked and contributes more with songs and pets, plus decent enough damage.  But it takes a lot of attention to keep her hit rate acceptable.

[Atranes]

I prefer cunning rogues in Origins, because the cunning really helps in the skill department, allowing you to do more things (locks) early without focusing all your skills in one area. With assassin and bard, your cunning DW can do some amazing damage when backstabbing. Bard song boosts effect the whole party, so a high cunning bard can help everyone out.



In Awakening, I prefer dex rogues because of Accuracy. I started as a cunning rogue in Awakening and took Nathaniel for kicks. His archery damage was so high that I respecced into a dex rogue. With the sky-high armor rating you can get in Awakening, I ended up using my dex rogue by himself. With the sheer numbers of attribute and skill points, you can cover the skills you need without as much cunning.

[danny411]

yep



i just went 40 dex and rest cun



max damage was like 872 with 2 intensity and 1 momentum



thats when i use the shadow form and hack em in the back



mostly if i stand there and hack away its like 200 a hit...



so i kill em fast...



my buffs are: mom, song ,double haste and two warrior spells, no auras from mage, no other buffs...



way faster than my mages or dw sword..



i used all the regular stuff from fighting...



velvet, felons with two will runes....etc.