334 réponses à ce sujet

[Upper_Krust]

Catcher wrote...

   Wow! All sorts of stuff flying around so I'm going to abandon most direct quoting and go straight to the individual posters/points.
  
   UpperKrust - I like the thinking of applying some more, shall we say unique, defenses and some attacks too for higher rank opponents. There are a couple of caveats, of course. First, the lack of a detailed combat feedback mechanism in DA makes special defenses particularlly more frustrating for the Player.

Well there are a number of ways around this. Firstly there are visual clues (Is it undead, on fire, does it have a halo etc.) Secondly there is the the hindsight of what type of damage it hits you with (is the player poisoned, on fire, affected by a spell effect etc.). Thirdly you could always make finding out about the monster part of the 'game' such as a spell or item (crystal ball) that lets you know its defenses. Of course once players get too comfortable with knowing monster attacks/defenses and how to find them - thats when you hit them with monsters with variable attacks/defenses.

Second, the more unique powers/defenses that you add, the more effects, animations, AI checks, etc. you're going to need which will drain resources from other areas.

Well in fairness, a lot of what I have suggested are statistical differences. For instance, having a monster that is notably stronger defensively in the front rather than the flanks. etc. Or having a monster that summons others, or makes its allies go berserk, or genlocks that steal or use grenades, corpses that deal an injury with every hit, demons that possess a target (slaying the target frees the demon), enemies that use potions...

So really, most of the resources for doing a thousand different things already exist in the game. A disease ridden corpse thats surrounded by a swarm of insects, a skeleton thats on fire and shoots fireballs, how about an ogre that regenerates.

All of these simple ideas don't require new resources to create.

If I may be so bold to suggest, some of the need for specials could be filled simply by applying Player-available skillsets to opponents in a more efficient/ruthless fashion. We sometimes forget that the job of being a good level and/or combat designer has become akin to fighting the Borg. Not only do developers have to contend with a fan base that will get playtime of several orders of magnitude greater than even the most lavish playtesting department, we now have youtube and wiki and more options to share weaknesses/exploits than we had in 1999.

Thats true. I don't think Dragon Age does a good job of guiding players through the games controls (I remember on my first play through that I was 10 hours in before I knew I could switch character...actually when my main character was first killed). In a similar way, I think it would be beneficial to guide players as to how to get the most from combat. This doesn't have to be done in a 'handholdy' type fashion, it could be an NPC/ally instructing you.

In one way its nice that Dragon Age gives you the freedom to build characters as you please. But the flipside is that the game cannot rely on the party to have dispel magic or stealth, so you cannot actually design any features around them...at least not as a necessity.

In that way, Bioware should first study DA: O and DA: A before they study any other game. I think soteria listed off several possible Nightmarish character builds. With some focus and tightened AI scripts, making a couple of Elite level versions of those to unleash on the Player should be just as scary as a character specced out that way. It's been a pleasure.

   
Nice chatting to you amigo.

PS: I looked up the puluda. Didn't realize the tarrasque came from a similar legend/area. Throw one of those in there with some cosmetic changes to avoid a lawsuit and a lot of old Players will need new shorts after playing.

   
The Tarasque is a medieval monster, there is a statue of it in France. That predates any D&D use of the monster.

The medieval version looks like an Ankylosaurus type dinosaur. I liked the idea of the monster being extremely strong defensively while it has its shell, but once you shatter its shell/carapace, it becomes faster/more deadly, but also weaker defensively.

[soteria]

First, the lack of a detailed combat feedback mechanism in DA makes special defenses particularlly more frustrating for the Player.

That's true. When I was first learning the game I was extremely frustrated by the lack of a combat log. Sometimes I'd have someone die or take a lot of damage very quickly and not really be sure how it happened. I think if pausing stopped the scrolling combat text, that would help, at least. I'm not sure if that's technically feasible, though.

The anecdotal evidence on these boards is suggesting a statistical trend that the DA system really starts to break down as Players obtain higher levels (16+) where said Player has a certain critical mass of talents, spells, and gear. Nerfing is one approach but I think that would also lead to less fun for you and it's really not my preferred method either (though Bioware needs to bring out the Nerf TREE when it comes to Mana Clash).

I would also agree that the game gets significantly easier after level 14-15. Several factors are at play: you unlock new abilities at level 14, you typically have the money to get some new gear, and yes, you just have a great enough variety in abilities that you can handle situations better.



The game halfway handles this by steeply increasing the difficulty of the enemies you face at a certain point. That is, you go down into the basement of a noble's house, and meet four guards protected by a grease trap. These guards, and the entire proceeding section, are a sharp increase in health and damage over whatever you were fighting beforehand, and I think players who have been there will know exactly what I'm talking about. I enjoy that section of the game a lot, but I think that steep jump in difficulty is an error.

From your original post:



While by no means perfect, on the above points I note, Lost Odyssey is vastly superior to Dragon Age.



Did you mean the entire game or the points you mentioned?

If you go back and re-read his OP, I think you'll notice that the part I've underlined is bold and underlined. He means just on those points.

I'd just like to go back to your point about more enemy variety. If we're talking in turns of gameplay, I've always thought of having too many different enemies is like having a version of Rock Paper Scissors with 60 or so possible options. The game is not improved (in fact it becomes much worse) and the players just get confused. Dragon Age already has a lot going on and I find even the unique enemies in the game I group in to lots of melee, ranged and magical enemies.

Well, that's all you really need to do for Dragon Age. Pretty much all melee can be handled the same way, as can ranged and magical attackers. Even the ones that have special abilities like overwhelm don't require a special change in tactics. Treants are a unique enemy, but don't merit any change in what you're doing. They have a cool special attack, but you can otherwise treat them just like you would a level 10 bandit. Undead are resistant/immune to nature and frost damage, and supposedly have a fire vulnerability, but it's not significant enough for me to say, "Oh, let me switch to that other mage that has fire spells."

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Ha i like dao more but if bioware studys anything it should be demon souls. scale wisei mean the monters omg there massive but i love Dao wish there were massive dragons youthink DAO has em big fight the dragon god on Demon souls but other than that the game is fine how it is plenty of varity of enemys for me i dont need every single monster to look diffirent. Although demon souls storyline combat aside is boring and dull as all hell but if DAO and DS had a baby they could name the game "god" .

[Upper_Krust]

[quote]uberdowzen wrote...

No, of course not, but Dragon Age already took 3 years to make, are you willing to wait 4? And if you are, how is that fair on the thousands of gamers who like the game as it is?[/quote]

Is the choice rush a game out and get "okay" results (as per Awakening) or take a bit more time and craft something thats excellent.

[quote]Um, huh? I knew I'd like Dragon Age before it came along because I'd played almost all of Bioware's previous games and loved them all to bits. That argument doesn't really make any sense.[/quote]

...and before you played any Bioware game, how did you know you would like their games? The answer is that you can't have known. After you played it, then you knew. Same thing here - how do you know you won't like a game (with the changes I am suggesting) far more than you currently do?


[quote]Sorry, I misunderstood in your original post. Just to clarify you have no problem with the number of enemies?[/quote]

Quality > quantity.

However, in Dragon Age I have issues with both the quality and quantity of the enemy types.

[quote]Do you mean like is some games where they change the colour of the enemy and give it different abilities? That's way easier to do in 2D than in 3D. In 3D you have to make an entirely new texture whereas in 2D you just need to change the tone of the pixels. [/quote]

Not necessarily the colour (though that too). But if I wanted to have an enemy on fire, then its a far easier effect to add to a 3D model than a 2D sprite.


[quote]Anyway, there are plenty of variants, Genlocks for example have different weapons which give them different abilities. [/quote]

None of which affect the game to any degree, nor do they make you approach combatting the genlock differently.


[quote]And then there are emissaries. [/quote]
Which, much like archers could be used better.



[quote]So do you expect, for example, Genlocks using a sword and a shield to have different sword and shield abilities to you? What else are they gonna use?[/quote]

Why should genlocks use swords & shields? We already have hurlocks for that. Instead of making Genlocks YET ANOTHER humanoid warrior enemy with no identity of its own. Lets make them sneaky rogues by default. They attack with grenades at range, use stealth and try to flank you with hit and run tactics, can steal objects from you (then use them), run away when outnumbered (only to show up again in a later encounter).


[quote]Yep, that's why we call 'em patches.[/quote]

So, Bioware don't always get everything right (which is what you initially inferred). If they did they wouldn't need patches. Not saying thats an indictment against Bioware, since the same problems afflict most companies to some degree.


[quote]Um, wait a minute, where did that come from? I did a quick Google search and all I found was something saying the game was doing well overall and something saying it wasn't doing well on consoles. Also remember that "sales figures" don't take into account Steam, Impulse, Direct 2 Drive etc.[/quote]

I remember someone posted share reports a few months ago on these forums with sales of 3.2 million copies with the majority of those being 360 > PC > PS3.


[quote]And you paid more because you got your console cheaper, that's your problem.[/quote]

The console nor PC doesn't say Bioware on it. So its hardly anything to do with them.


[quote]So, they can be balanced unless what?[/quote]

Unless Bioware doesn't balance Mages properly and makes spells like Mana Clash overpowered.


[quote]You seem to be complaining about the fact that enemies use the same abilites as you etc. [/quote]

Thats only part of it. A major part is that the player can use the same abilities on all enemies and they all prove just as effective in 99% of cases.


[quote]Again, what else are they meant to use? [/quote]

Their own abilities.


[quote]DAO is based on DnD and that how it works in DnD. It's not a flaw it's just how it works.[/quote]

Well its how much of 3rd Edition D&D works, but not 4th Edition, which is mechanically superior.


[quote]This way you know how to counter things.[/quote]

Since when do you ever need to counter anything in Dragon age?


[quote]Did you mean the entire game or the points you mentioned?
[/quote]Its all one sentence so its pretty clear I mean on the above points LO is superior.


[quote]I'd just like to go back to your point about more enemy variety. If we're talking in turns of gameplay, I've always thought of having too many different enemies is like having a version of Rock Paper Scissors with 60 or so possible options. The game is not improved (in fact it becomes much worse) and the players just get confused. [/quote]

No. You see, firstly even if we have 60 total enemy types (or even 200+ with variants) over 50-60 hours of gameplay, you still limit most of them by area. Secondly, with visual clues nothing needs to get confusing. Thirdly, we are not making single choices all-encompassing, simply more important.


[quote]Dragon Age already has a lot going on and I find even the unique enemies in the game I group in to lots of melee, ranged and magical enemies.[/quote]

None of which you need ever change your tactics for (other than a handful of exceptions).

Modifié par Upper_Krust, 14 avril 2010 - 10:33 .

[uberdowzen]

OK, I'm willing to believe you are right. What's your roster for the new Darkspawn? List how they fight, the tactics they use how they look etc. This includes a list of all variants of each type and how they differ. And it has to fit into the lore.

[Wholetyouinhere]

 I think Bioware should learn from God of War - but mainly just because I fantasize about an action/rpg with the story, environment, and detail of a Morrowind AND the smooth, complex, visceral combat of a Devil May Cry. Pretty sure we've absolutely never had anything like that, which is incredibly frustrating. I imagine such a game would be pretty much the greatest thing ever.

[uberdowzen]

Wholetyouinhere wrote...

 I think Bioware should learn from God of War - but mainly just because I fantasize about an action/rpg with the story, environment, and detail of a Morrowind AND the smooth, complex, visceral combat of a Devil May Cry. Pretty sure we've absolutely never had anything like that, which is incredibly frustrating. I imagine such a game would be pretty much the greatest thing ever.

The Witcher?

[CybAnt1]

   CybAnt1 - The way you find out about resistances is the same way you would find out in Real Life, when you use a elemental type that something is resistant/immune to you see lower numbers or "Immune" on the screen.

Ummm.... I suppose ... yeah immunities are clear, it does say immune and a "0" pops up. 

However, how do I know if the creature is, say, 25% resistant to fire? 

So should I pay close attention and notice that my master fire rune keeps doing "3" damage instead of "4"? I guess, there should be some way of knowing other than being a math major who watches the screen closer. 

In any case, many critters use special attacks including poison.  

Dunno. Have my characters ever been poisoned? How would I know? Do I again have to watch the "1" keep popping over their head over and over again? 

How come nothing ever diseases them? Drains abilities? Confuses them? Makes them afraid? Silences their spellcasting ability? Drains their mana or stamina? Takes control of them to attack other companions? I find it weird the game has a mental resistance stat, there's almost nothing that makes any mental attacks against you. 

How come they only get injured when they "die"/fall unconscious in combat? Shouldn't devastating attacks cause injuries without having to reduce them to 0 hp? I have to say I never needed anything other than the lesser injury kit, injuries were pretty rare. However, if enemies could inflict them on you more often ... hmmm, now that might be something. 

I find special attacks against you are pretty rare (and as you say sans a combat log and other feedback systems you sometimes don't seem aware they were used against you in the first place ... so maybe they're happening more often but you just don't know). 

It does seem, at least in Awakening, more stuff started trying to stun you, grab you, knock you over, knock you back, and overwhelm you. At least that's something. 

[dbkkk]

Wholetyouinhere wrote...

 I think Bioware should learn from God of War - but mainly just because I fantasize about an action/rpg with the story, environment, and detail of a Morrowind AND the smooth, complex, visceral combat of a Devil May Cry. Pretty sure we've absolutely never had anything like that, which is incredibly frustrating. I imagine such a game would be pretty much the greatest thing ever.

Agreed. Story and scope of Morrowind was excellent (though its combat was rudimentary in many respects and enchantiment was game-breaking unbalanced).

Devil May Cry had fun, stimulating combat as part of  fast-paced action game (with a bit too much repetitive level design for my tastes) but I am not sure how that would meld into an rpg with the whole 'party of characters' dynamic.

I'd also toss into the mix  the dialog and creative elements of Planescape Torment but that will never happen again in an era where every game must strive for mass market appeal. Sadly the industry has changed too much and not all for the better imo.

[AlanC9]

Upper_Krust wrote...
 I don't think Dragon Age does a good job of guiding players through the games controls (I remember on my first play through that I was 10 hours in before I knew I could switch character...actually when my main character was first killed). In a similar way, I think it would be beneficial to guide players as to how to get the most from combat. This doesn't have to be done in a 'handholdy' type fashion, it could be an NPC/ally instructing you.

That kind of misses the point. If the developers don't know themselves what the most effective playstyle is, they can't tell you about it.

It's funny that the manual doesn't seem to mention how to switch characters. But aren't there Codex entries that explain this?

[Rio420]

In response to the original poster, I find that your arguments and points are actually not far off the mark regarding the Dragon Age game play. While I don't want to discredit Bioware, I will say that one of the biggest things that contributed to my overall enjoyment of Dragon Age was the seemingly in depth relationships you began to make with your party members starting with Origins. Duncan in particular was one of the characters I was just starting to really get into when he was abruptly taken out of the picture. (Which I'm still not happy about!) I think the first one started to touch on a key element of game play with drawing the gamer in and getting them emotionally involved in the story and in the relationships, but it fell short which I can only venture to say was due to lack of time in the development. The DLC content helped a little but when the expansion came out (Dragon Age: Awakening), the relationship aspect of the game was even weaker and it was harder than ever to truly plug myself in and become the character I was playing.

I've said it a thousand times and I'll probably say it a thousand more, immersion is the key to any rpg or MMO. It has to be more than simply rolling a toon to go "beat stuff up." When you have a gripping storyline with an emotional investment the players get sucked into the world you've created and while they play they are the character. Sadly, games these days are lacking in those particular regards and many companies have settled on twitch based hyper action fighting and special effects, however glitz can only get you so far.

Btw, I did watch that clip from Lost Odyssey (sp?) and I do agree, that was one of the most, if not the most powerful cutscene I have ever had the honor to watch. I've been gaming since the late 70s having started on text based games and gradually moving up to graphical based, I've seen just about every type of computer game you can imagine as I'm sure some of the others in these forums have as well, nothing I've seen can compare to the power and emotion in that cutscene.

Oh, and in regards to Duncan, you guys need to honor him, Allister mentions going up to Duncan's home and having a proper service and erecting a statue, I think it's only right that this is included, Duncan was a hero, a major character, and probably one of the most intriguing characters the game had to offer.

Modifié par Rio420, 15 avril 2010 - 04:58 .

[danny411]

the game they should study is asherons call



content

excellent comabat system

excellent game play



ac is the best game ive played.

[Massadonious1]

danny411 wrote...

the game they should study is asherons call

content
excellent comabat system
excellent game play

ac is the best game ive played.

I like apples because they:

Taste good
Are nutritious
Are red, and sometimes green.

More food should be like apples.

[Upper_Krust]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Ha i like dao more but if bioware studys anything it should be demon souls. scale wisei mean the monters omg there massive but i love Dao wish there were massive dragons youthink DAO has em big fight the dragon god on Demon souls but other than that the game is fine how it is plenty of varity of enemys for me i dont need every single monster to look diffirent. Although demon souls storyline combat aside is boring and dull as all hell but if DAO and DS had a baby they could name the game "god" .

You know I really wanted Demon Souls, unfortunately its (crazily) PS3 only.

[Upper_Krust]

uberdowzen wrote...

OK, I'm willing to believe you are right. What's your roster for the new Darkspawn?

Only the Darkspawn?

Depends on whether you mean by roster. Do you mean using only the current existing resources and monster models (though allowing for variants)? Or do you mean if I was given a free hand to completely design new types of Darkspawn (or other monsters) - albeit not going too crazy on new monster models?

List how they fight, the tactics they use how they look etc. This includes a list of all variants of each type and how they differ. And it has to fit into the lore.

LOL! You know whats funny - I already did this in another thread on these forums about 2 months ago...where I not only completely revised the Darkspawn...but also the demons...and the animals...and the golems...and the humanoids...basically every enemy type in the game with multiple variants and boss versions of each monster just for good measure. I'll hunt that link down and post it later.

Since then of course, I have brainstormed up about another thousand ideas including completely new monster types (for DAO) Chantry Angels, Oozes, Antivan Genies, Tevinter Spellguards, Thedasian Monsters of Legend (summoned by the Beastlords of Anderfels), The Orlaisian Clockwork Keepers, Immortals, Lunar Prisoners, Qunari Mirror Masters, Archdemon Remnants, Neverliving Miscreations...oh, and many of those with multiple types and variants.

Most of the ideas I'll probably cannibalise into my future RPG books, its not like Bioware would be that interested in seeing them.
 
...what wonders I could do for Dragon Age's monster roster *wanders off daydreaming*

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...


It's definitely possible.  Follow the link in my signature--it includes pretty much every difficult boss/encounter in Origins.  In some of them I point out ways you can "cheat," but it's never the primary strategy.  The one fight I sometimes get flak for is one that I pre-cast a glyph into a room with a bunch of archers and a boss, but seeing as how I've done it without mages and I've even seen it soloed (without potions), uh, yeah.

Well I just watched the high dragon fight. That´s not nightmare.......

[Tirigon]

[quote]Upper_Krust wrote...


Why should genlocks use swords & shields? We already have hurlocks for that. Instead of making Genlocks YET ANOTHER humanoid warrior enemy with no identity of its own. Lets make them sneaky rogues by default. They attack with grenades at range, use stealth and try to flank you with hit and run tactics, can steal objects from you (then use them), run away when outnumbered (only to show up again in a later encounter).[/quote]

Except for stealing, they do all that. And I really don´t want my items to get stolen. Not only that it sucks, but it´s also unrealistic. I´m a Warden, ffs, and therefore a lot more intelligent, stronger, faster etc... than the darkspawn. They can´t steal from me. And if they could, they wouldn´t - they would stab you to death instead. And now DON´T come up with "Give genlocks chance of instakill then. Really DON´T!!!


[quote]
[quote]You seem to be complaining about the fact that enemies use the same abilites as you etc. [/quote]

Thats only part of it. A major part is that the player can use the same abilities on all enemies and they all prove just as effective in 99% of cases.
[/quote]

Wrong, all enemies have different weaknesses and resistances / immunities.


[quote]
[quote]Again, what else are they meant to use? [/quote]

Their own abilities. [/quote]

No. It sucks if enemies can have skills you can´t. Bad enough that some bosses can do that (revenant-doublestrike, for example). I am a Warden. Again, wardens are BETTER in combat than the darkspawn. Lorewise, they should have even LESS skills, if only.


[quote]
[quote]This way you know how to counter things.[/quote]

Since when do you ever need to counter anything in Dragon age?[/quote]

You do. Crushing prison can insta-kill your mage, for example. Elite rank assassins only need 2 or 3 hits for a kill etc...

[quote]
[quote]I'd just like to go back to your point about more enemy variety. If we're talking in turns of gameplay, I've always thought of having too many different enemies is like having a version of Rock Paper Scissors with 60 or so possible options. The game is not improved (in fact it becomes much worse) and the players just get confused. [/quote]

No. You see, firstly even if we have 60 total enemy types (or even 200+ with variants) over 50-60 hours of gameplay, you still limit most of them by area. Secondly, with visual clues nothing needs to get confusing. Thirdly, we are not making single choices all-encompassing, simply more important.[/quote]

That is, you want DAO with 20 enemy types more. The rest is all here.

[quote]
[quote]Dragon Age already has a lot going on and I find even the unique enemies in the game I group in to lots of melee, ranged and magical enemies.[/quote]

None of which you need ever change your tactics for (other than a handful of exceptions).
[/quote]

First, exceptions ARE there.
Second, you are fighting darkspawn. They are darkspawn, not 20 different races, therefore they have similar strengths and weaknesses and can be fought in similar ways.

[Tirigon]

Upper_Krust wrote...



LOL! You know whats funny - I already did this in another thread on these forums about 2 months ago...where I not only completely revised the Darkspawn...but also the demons...and the animals...and the golems...and the humanoids...basically every enemy type in the game with multiple variants and boss versions of each monster just for good measure. I'll hunt that link down and post it later.

Since then of course, I have brainstormed up about another thousand ideas including completely new monster types (for DAO) Chantry Angels, Oozes, Antivan Genies, Tevinter Spellguards, Thedasian Monsters of Legend (summoned by the Beastlords of Anderfels), The Orlaisian Clockwork Keepers, Immortals, Lunar Prisoners, Qunari Mirror Masters, Archdemon Remnants, Neverliving Miscreations...oh, and many of those with multiple types and variants.

Most of the ideas I'll probably cannibalise into my future RPG books, its not like Bioware would be that interested in seeing them.
 
...what wonders I could do for Dragon Age's monster roster *wanders off daydreaming*

Sorry, but these things you mention sound like they might be good if you want to make your own game, but don´t fit at all in the world of DAO.

Why, for example, should there be Lunar Prisoners? They would be imprisoned, and on the moon. What would they do on Thedas? And what the hell do you want Antivan genies for?!  They probably don´t exist, and we aren´t in Antiva anyways. Or Chantry angels? Helloooo? Angels don´t exist, and the Maker has left the world, if he ever existed at all. So where would angels come from?

[xCobalt]

Tirigon wrote...

Upper_Krust wrote...
Why should genlocks use swords & shields? We already have hurlocks for that. Instead of making Genlocks YET ANOTHER humanoid warrior enemy with no identity of its own. Lets make them sneaky rogues by default. They attack with grenades at range, use stealth and try to flank you with hit and run tactics, can steal objects from you (then use them), run away when outnumbered (only to show up again in a later encounter).

Except for stealing, they do all that. And I really don´t want my items to get stolen. Not only that it sucks, but it´s also unrealistic. I´m a Warden, ffs, and therefore a lot more intelligent, stronger, faster etc... than the darkspawn. They can´t steal from me. And if they could, they wouldn´t - they would stab you to death instead. And now DON´T come up with "Give genlocks chance of instakill then. Really DON´T!!!

With four playthroughs, I have yet to see them use grenades or use proper tactics. Sure, they can stealth and flank you but as soon as you turn around, they're still in the same position attacking you....they won't be moving anywhere. I haven't seen them run away when outnumbered either.

Wrong, all enemies have different weaknesses and resistances / immunities.

Pretty sure not all. Whats the difference between fighting any humanoid opponents? Everything seems to be the same whether its a Qunari, Dwarf, Human or Elf. What are the traits of bears or wolves? Whether or not these weaknesses or resistances exist, they all can be taken down the same way. There wasn't a moment in game where I had to change tactics/equipment to take down an enemy.

No. It sucks if enemies can have skills you can´t. Bad enough that some bosses can do that (revenant-doublestrike, for example). I am a Warden. Again, wardens are BETTER in combat than the darkspawn. Lorewise, they should have even LESS skills, if only.

You consider that a bad thing if enemies are unique? Just because you're a Warden doesn't mean you have access to every single ability that exists in the DA world.

You do. Crushing prison can insta-kill your mage, for example. Elite rank assassins only need 2 or 3 hits for a kill etc...

If you're doing a naked run through the game, perhaps. You seem to be exaggerating on your examples as I have yet to experience what you mentioned.

First, exceptions ARE there.
Second, you are fighting darkspawn. They are darkspawn, not 20 different races, therefore they have similar strengths and weaknesses and can be fought in similar ways.

Personally, the only times I changed my tactics were when my party members learned new skills or got some more slots. That's pretty much it. I didn't have to change tactics for any certain encounter.

You seem to be relying a lot on the argument of darkspawn being the sole focus. There are other enemies in the game (but the ways of taking them down isn't too different).

[Realmzmaster]

AlanC9 wrote...

Upper_Krust wrote...
 I don't think Dragon Age does a good job of guiding players through the games controls (I remember on my first play through that I was 10 hours in before I knew I could switch character...actually when my main character was first killed). In a similar way, I think it would be beneficial to guide players as to how to get the most from combat. This doesn't have to be done in a 'handholdy' type fashion, it could be an NPC/ally instructing you.

That kind of misses the point. If the developers don't know themselves what the most effective playstyle is, they can't tell you about it.

It's funny that the manual doesn't seem to mention how to switch characters. But aren't there Codex entries that explain this?

There are codex entries that expalin most if not all the controls and gameplay. Also if you keep the tips on they will popup explaining anything new.

[Upper_Krust]

[quote]Tirigon wrote...

Except for stealing, they do all that.[/quote]
 
No they don't, not even close. They never use grenades, they never use hit and run tactics.


[quote]And I really don´t want my items to get stolen.[/quote]

You get them back when you face that character (assuming he escapes with it) later in that 'Dungeon'.


[quote]Not only that it sucks, but it´s also unrealistic.[/quote]

A rogue stealing is unrealistic all of a sudden?


[quote]I´m a Warden, ffs, and therefore a lot more intelligent, stronger, faster etc... than the darkspawn. They can´t steal from me.[/quote]

Your stronger than an Ogre, faster than a Shriek, able to leap small buildings...


[quote]And if they could, they wouldn´t - they would stab you to death instead.[/quote]

I think they might learn after the first few genlocks are put through the meat grinder that is the players party to avoid direct confrontations.


[quote]And now DON´T come up with "Give genlocks chance of instakill then. Really DON´T!!![/quote]

I'll try and refrain.


[quote]Wrong, all enemies have different weaknesses and resistances / immunities.[/quote]

Even if that was true (and it isn't), none of those resistances/immunities matter a single iota, because they are so trivial that you never need to pay attention to them.


[quote]No. It sucks if enemies can have skills you can´t. Bad enough that some bosses can do that (revenant-doublestrike, for example). I am a Warden. Again, wardens are BETTER in combat than the darkspawn. Lorewise, they should have even LESS skills, if only.[/quote]

Flemeth must have upset you (edited in case of spoliers).


[quote]You do. Crushing prison can insta-kill your mage, for example. Elite rank assassins only need 2 or 3 hits for a kill etc... [/quote]

This never happens - what game are you playing here?


[quote]That is, you want DAO with 20 enemy types more. The rest is all here.[/quote]

Not necessarily.

You could revise the existing roster of monsters into far more interesting, diverse and challenging opponents.

So you don't necessarily need more, though more (done well) is always a plus.


[quote]First, exceptions ARE there.[/quote]

Yes for about 1% or less of combats.


[quote]Second, you are fighting darkspawn. They are darkspawn, not 20 different races,[/quote]

You might not have been keeping up with Darkspawn Lore, we have Hurlocks, Genlocks, Sharlocks, Ogres, The Children, Broodmothers, Disciples, The Architect and the Archdemon. So while it may not be 20 different races, the darkspawn do have a number of sub-races - theres no reason why any of them need to be similar.


[quote]therefore they have similar strengths and weaknesses and can be fought in similar ways.[/quote]

Are you talking about the whole monster roster here?

Modifié par Upper_Krust, 15 avril 2010 - 07:34 .

[Tirigon]

xCobalt wrote...

Wrong, all enemies have different weaknesses and resistances / immunities.

Pretty sure not all. Whats the difference between fighting any humanoid opponents? Everything seems to be the same whether its a Qunari, Dwarf, Human or Elf. What are the traits of bears or wolves? Whether or not these weaknesses or resistances exist, they all can be taken down the same way. There wasn't a moment in game where I had to change tactics/equipment to take down an enemy.

So what? The differences ARE there. If you choose not to use them, that´s your fault.

No. It sucks if enemies can have skills you can´t. Bad enough that some bosses can do that (revenant-doublestrike, for example). I am a Warden. Again, wardens are BETTER in combat than the darkspawn. Lorewise, they should have even LESS skills, if only.

You consider that a bad thing if enemies are unique? Just because you're a Warden doesn't mean you have access to every single ability that exists in the DA world.

Not the ones of dragons or so - you wouldn´t bite a darkspawn. But the sword and magic skills, yes, you should. Wardens are the best.

You do. Crushing prison can insta-kill your mage, for example. Elite rank assassins only need 2 or 3 hits for a kill etc...

If you're doing a naked run through the game, perhaps. You seem to be exaggerating on your examples as I have yet to experience what you mentioned.

Turn up diffuculty then - CP can easily instakill. After all, I managed to deal about 900 damage with a single CP myself, and that was on Nightmare where enemies have high resistances. i want to see the char who survives 900 damage.

You seem to be relying a lot on the argument of darkspawn being the sole focus. There are other enemies in the game (but the ways of taking them down isn't too different).

They are supposed to be the main enemies. Yes, others are there, but then: Humanoids are just, well, humans, elves etc... thus they are like you, and Undead are essentially just dead humanoids. Wild animals don´t have magical resistances cause they arent magical creatures. And demons have unique skils.

[Upper_Krust]

Tirigon wrote...

Sorry, but these things you mention sound like they might be good if you want to make your own game, but don´t fit at all in the world of DAO.

I hate to state the blinking obvious but its hardly as if I'm privy at this juncture to Bioware's Game 'Bible' on Thedas.

Why, for example, should there be Lunar Prisoners?

Why shouldn't there be? Thedas has a moon.

They would be imprisoned, and on the moon.

Tevinter Mages hoped to free them and control them for use in the war against the Qunari.

What would they do on Thedas?

They would wreak havoc upon Thedas until banished back to their prisons.

And what the hell do you want Antivan genies for?! 

For better monster diversity.

They probably don´t exist, and we aren´t in Antiva anyways.

 
Is that why the Antivan Crows only operate in Antiva...oh wait.

Or Chantry angels? Helloooo? Angels don´t exist, and the Maker has left the world, if he ever existed at all. So where would angels come from?

I was thinking that the Chantry Angels would actually be 'demons' in the guise of Angels.

[Tirigon]

Upper_Krust wrote...


A rogue stealing is unrealistic all of a sudden?

Yes, because killing is much more effective. I mean, come on - Wardens are the darkspawns worst enemies - if they come close enough to open your backpack, they´d rather shove their knives up your ass instead.

Your stronger than an Ogre, faster than a Shriek, able to leap small buildings...

Well, at least I killed a lot of Ogres through the game. No Ogre killed me. Seems I AM stronger after all:kissing:

[Upper_Krust]

Tirigon wrote...

Yes, because killing is much more effective.

Thats weird because you have no fear of death Warden, but you fear having your trinkets stolen. Ha ha ha - the tables are turned, we genlocks will steal your loot! Fear us now! 

I mean, come on - Wardens are the darkspawns worst enemies - if they come close enough to open your backpack, they´d rather shove their knives up your ass instead.

Then steal something and run away before they get sliced to ribbons in melee.

Well, at least I killed a lot of Ogres through the game. No Ogre killed me. Seems I AM stronger after all:kissing:

No Ogre in the game ever killed any of your characters - even the one in the Tower of Ishal?