334 réponses à ce sujet

[xCobalt]

Good thing the Warden and Alistair were able to sense the shriek ambush at their camp huh. Oh wait...



Wardens are not almighty beings. Just because they have the title of Grey Warden doesn't warrant them access to every ability in the game. You must be pretty pissed not having all Rogue, Warrior and Mage abilities.

[Tirigon]

xCobalt wrote...

Good thing the Warden and Alistair were able to sense the shriek ambush at their camp huh. Oh wait...

True. Sort of a freaking plothole there, just as with the entire sneak thing.
Remember in the Korkari wilds? Alistair says he´s there cos he can sense darkspawn (like all wardens) and thus protect you from secret ambushes or traps or too big squads.
Later Morrigan talks about the difficulties escaping with Alistair there and Alistair says that even with Flemeth´s help thing big hordes or intelligent darkspawn will inevitably sense him.

Wardens are not almighty beings. Just because they have the title of Grey Warden doesn't warrant them access to every ability in the game. You must be pretty pissed not having all Rogue, Warrior and Mage abilities.

There is a mod to have all talents.

[soteria]

I doubt it´s nightmare because the dragon seems to do no damage at all and I know that doesnt happen on nightmare, considering I fought him shortly before watching and he did about 80 to 100 damage against a warrior with 35 armor......

No damage at all? I was healing Shale constantly with Regen and Heal, and that's with max fire resist. The only way your warrior took 80-100 damage is from a fire breath with low/no fire resist or a grab, and Shale doesn't get grabbed. Plus, Shale has more hp than the average warrior, so his health bar is going to jump around more slowly. Just admit you're wrong, already.

Well, except for the fact that it´s a Warden who defeats the Archdemon, a High dragon, the most powerful elf in Thedas, whole lots of demons, the most powerful golem in the whole of Thedas - what is even more spectacular s the codex says that a golem is worth as much as a dozen of the best warriors...



Sounds like the best to me.

Zevran killed the High Dragon, the elf was a pushover, and mostly all I did was sit back and heal Shale while Morrigan and Leliana did the killing. Technically I killed the Archdemon, but mostly I was there out of necessity. I know people who have RP'd pacifist Wardens. Your group is fully capable of doing all the work, and except Alistair, none of them are Wardens. Your whole argument is tragically flawed, and could be better summed up, "You're the hero of the story, and therefore the best." Being a Warden has nothing to do with it.

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

I doubt it´s nightmare because the dragon seems to do no damage at all and I know that doesnt happen on nightmare, considering I fought him shortly before watching and he did about 80 to 100 damage against a warrior with 35 armor......

No damage at all? I was healing Shale constantly with Regen and Heal, and that's with max fire resist. The only way your warrior took 80-100 damage is from a fire breath with low/no fire resist or a grab, and Shale doesn't get grabbed. Plus, Shale has more hp than the average warrior, so his health bar is going to jump around more slowly. Just admit you're wrong, already.

Well it seemed like that at least. Maybe it´s because you cut out parts of the fights. Or maybe it´s because I´m right after all, anyways I can´t say I care much.

Well, except for the fact that it´s a Warden who defeats the Archdemon, a High dragon, the most powerful elf in Thedas, whole lots of demons, the most powerful golem in the whole of Thedas - what is even more spectacular s the codex says that a golem is worth as much as a dozen of the best warriors...

Sounds like the best to me.

Zevran killed the High Dragon, the elf was a pushover, and mostly all I did was sit back and heal Shale while Morrigan and Leliana did the killing. Technically I killed the Archdemon, but mostly I was there out of necessity. I know people who have RP'd pacifist Wardens. Your group is fully capable of doing all the work, and except Alistair, none of them are Wardens. Your whole argument is tragically flawed, and could be better summed up, "You're the hero of the story, and therefore the best." Being a Warden has nothing to do with it.

Of course it has. Just watch the intro video, or listen to the tales about wardens, ore to lot of the dialogue about them. It all comes down to the fact that Wardens are the best.
If you decide to play a supportive mage that´s your choice then; i can only say that in my game my "avatar" is definitely the most powerful party member and gets the most kills.

Modifié par Tirigon, 16 avril 2010 - 03:59 .

[Upper_Krust]

uberdowzen wrote...

Oh yeah, I agree, when it comes down to it all we really want if DA2 to be even better than DAO. I do kind of think that complaining about all the enemies using the same abilities as you is kinda like complaining in ME2 that all the enemies have guns and shoot you, just like you do.

Well I haven't played ME2 yet (I'll probably pick it up when it drops in price), but thats a wonderfully blase' comment you made that glosses over the depth (or lack of depth) within a game.

[Upper_Krust]

AlanC9 wrote...

Were there really a lot of players who didn't learn that they could switch characters from what's in the game already? Or is it just you?

I hope it was just me, but I doubt it. However, my criticism wasn't necessarily about that specific point but rather that the 'discover it yourself' attitude of the game means that the typical gamer will invariably miss a lot of the nuances in the game.

[Upper_Krust]

Tirigon wrote...

There´s one big hole in that argumentation: The Wardens can SENSE the Darkspawn.... No Darkspawn, no matter how skilled at sneaking, can come close to a Warden without being noticed, and vice versa.

Yet in the 2-3 instances of the game featuring Darkspawn Rogues - they do sneak up on the Grey Wardens - go figure.

Also, it´s ****ing unrealistical that you can sneak right up to someone if that someone knows everyone within the next few miles is either 1 of his 3 companions or a guy who wants him dead.

Except that the Warden's Spidey Senses never really amount to anything in the game - thus they are utterly irrelevant.

More to the point, just because a Warden could sense a Darkspawn was in the immediate vicinity, doesn't mean they could automatically pinpoint where the (stealthing) Darkspawn was.

Oh and if the Darkspawn could also pinpoint the Wardens then Rogue characters would be poop out of luck wouldn't they.

So its pretty clear that Bioware don't exepct things to work the way you do as regards sneaking.

Did I ever mention that sneaking in DAO is the most ridiculous sh!t I´ve ever seen anyways? Well, now´s the time then.

I find it less ridiculous than fighting the same battles over and over again.

Modifié par Upper_Krust, 16 avril 2010 - 04:54 .

[Tirigon]

Upper_Krust wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

There´s one big hole in that argumentation: The Wardens can SENSE the Darkspawn.... No Darkspawn, no matter how skilled at sneaking, can come close to a Warden without being noticed, and vice versa.

Yet in the 2-3 instances of the game featuring Darkspawn Rogues - they do sneak up on the Grey Wardens - go figure.

Also, it´s ****ing unrealistical that you can sneak right up to someone if that someone knows everyone within the next few miles is either 1 of his 3 companions or a guy who wants him dead.

Except that the Warden's Spidey Senses never really amount to anything in the game - thus they are utterly irrelevant.

More to the point, just because a Warden could sense a Darkspawn was in the immediate vicinity, doesn't mean they could automatically pinpoint where the (stealthing) Darkspawn was.

1. That BioWare decided to ignore a skill that should be there lore-wise is rather sad and not a justification for your stupid idea about darkspawn rogues.
2. The entire stealth line of skills is crap and ridiculous. Complete invisibility, yea.... If you really want that, at least give it to mages who could reach it by magic. But no rogue, no matter how good can be entirely invisible. I once saw a video of a rogue soloing who laid a trap right between 6 enemies and they didnt notice him, even when it wet off and hurt them. Yea. Just... Yea.

Oh and if the Darkspawn could also pinpoint the Wardens then Rogue characters would be poop out of luck wouldn't they.

So its pretty clear that Bioware don't exepct things to work the way you do as regards sneaking.

True, unfortunately. But is that a reason not to mention what I consider to be better? At least it´s pretty clear they don´t want it your way, either, or we would have stealing genlocks already.

Did I ever mention that sneaking in DAO is the most ridiculous sh!t I´ve ever seen anyways? Well, now´s the time then.

I find it less ridiculous than fighting the same battles over and over again.

I find the battles in DAO vary enough. Go play COD MW2 and there you can complain about always doing the same, but not in DAO.

[CatPower]

I have been thinking for a while that if anybody would take the graphics and openness of the world in Oblivion and the quests, story and character interaction of DAO (or BG2 for that matter, it doesn't really matter), then this would pretty much be a perfect game in my world.

But I wouldn't even want to take any stand as to saying that it should be Bioware to learn from Bethesda, or vice versa, because as a consumer I don't really care about that.

[imran shah]

Upper_Krust wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

There´s one big hole in that argumentation: The Wardens can SENSE the Darkspawn.... No Darkspawn, no matter how skilled at sneaking, can come close to a Warden without being noticed, and vice versa.

Yet in the 2-3 instances of the game featuring Darkspawn Rogues - they do sneak up on the Grey Wardens - go figure.

nope you can HEAR them... before they attack... sooo GO FIGURE

DAO is FAR superior to LO....

[Upper_Krust]

Dragon Age Monster Revision

Case Study #1: Darkspawn

1.1 Genlocks

If we accept that Genlocks in many ways are the games Goblins to the Hurlocks Orcs (or Uruk-Hai if you prefer), then in general they don't seem very 'gobliny'. To give them their own identity I suggest making them more like skulking rogues than mere warriors (we already have Hurlocks for that).

Behaviour: Defensive (unless otherwise mentioned)
Morale: Cowardly (unless otherwise mentioned). Will try to escape if outnumbered (those who escape show up in a later encounter).

1.1a Genlock Sneak (basic genlock) - Normal Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Hit and Run - Attacks from Stealth, Hits (or misses) which also has a chance of stealing a consumable (potion/salve), then runs away for 10 seconds until the stealth cooldown is over. Rinse and repeat.

1.1b Genlock Grenadier - Normal Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Ranged - Lobs grenades from Stealth. Will try and get multiple opponents in the blast radius if possible. Variable potions (Grease, Glue, Honey, Poison Gas, Firebombs). Each Grenadier might have 3 grenades. If you slay them quickly, you can get remaining grenades. If they use up all their grenades they operate as Genlock Sneaks.

Honey grenades would be used in forested areas where they could attract a swarm of bees.

1.1c Genlock Trapper - Normal Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Passive until attacked. Moves around the battlefield creating traps. Tries to goad the heroes into following him. 
  
1.1d Genlock Master Sneak - Lieutenant Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Hit and Run - Again attacks from Stealth, If he hits, can steal the players weapon. Also, one element that changes him from the basic Genlock Sneak is the use of Poison. Not just dealing more damage, but poison that infects a character and slowly drains their health.

1.1e Genlock Bombadier - Lieutenant Rank, Level 3

Behaviour: Stubborn (fights to the death)
Tactics: Ranged (until reaching 25% which is when he turns into a suicide bomber, charges while screaming and detonates himself in a big explosion). Seemingly has a limitless number of grenades, though if you slay him quickly (before he detonates) you only receive 2.

1.1f Genlock Wolfmaster - Lieutenant Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Variable. Always accompanied by a pack of Wolves (Normal Rank, Level 3) led by an Alpha Wolf (Lieutenant Rank, Level 3). Doesn't attack unless attacked himself. Uses a (silent?) whistle which sends the wolves into a frenzy though. If a wolf is reduced to 33% health or less it breaks from the pack and returns to the wolfmaster who heals it with some healing balm. If attacked at range, will send the wolves after that individual. If attacked in melee, the wolves run to his defense. If attacked himself, transforms into a werewolf when reduced to 50% health. If slain, the wolves scatter and flee.

1.1g Genlock Emissary - Boss Rank, Level 3

Decided to make these bosses, just to give them more time to show what they can do and make them more the default leaders of the Genlocks. For enemy wizards in general I'll try and limit spell lists to four signature spells.

Behaviour: Intelligent (adaptive)
Morale: Normal (Will try and flee if the last man standing)
Tactics: Ranged.

Spell: Telekinesis (Moves an object or ally or opponent). Has multiple potential benefits. Firstly can move an enemy into a trap (possibly set by the Trapper). Could pull an enemy away from a Wolfmaster flinging them into another enemy (bunching enemies together for the Grenadier). Or could hastily remove a Master Sneak from harm after they have stolen an item. Could lift nearby objects and use them as missiles.

Spell: Illusion. Creates an imaginary duplicate of the emissary (while they remain invisible) that the emissary casts spells through. The illusion would be disrupted after taking a small amount of damage (equal to a normal rank enemy).

Spell: Vulnerability Hex.

Spell: Animate Dead (Zombie). Raises a fallen ally as a zombie, this zombie remains until destroyed or until the Emissary is defeated.

1.1h Genlock Forgemaster - Boss Rank, Level 3

Behaviour: Aggressive.
Morale: Stubborn (fights to the death) and Fearsome (no allies will flee until the Forgemaster is defeated)
Tactics: Aggressive. Half-Golem's (?), with their front very heavily armoured while their flanks are relatively normal (Forgemasters are partially dipped face down in molten metal). Carry large 2-handed hammers, the heads of which are anvils. These hammers are not just weapons but can also hammer the Forgeborn back into shape (repairing/healing it 50%). Players gain these hammers when they defeat a Forgemaster.

Hammers can create a wall of fire (as per the spell) by cracking the earth (only works if encountered underground).

Very resistant to fire, but susceptible to cold based attacks.

1.1i Genlock Forgeborn - Boss Rank, Level 3 (NEW MODEL REQUIRED)

The Darkspawn's own crude attempts to create golems. Large stomping humanoids constructed from twisted bits of rusting metal. Lopsided arms with one huge pincered arm on one side and a normal sized clawed-arm on the other.

Behaviour: Aggressive
Morale: Stubborn (will fight to the death)
Tactics: Slow but tough and powerful. Rather than having a front and a flank (on the combat circle), it has two halves split down the middle (as you look face on), so you can attack its left side (main body) or right side (pincer arm). You can target the pincer arm (thus taking away its most powerful attack) or its body (destroying the monster). The pincer arm has less health (50% of that of the body). However, the Forgemaster can batter the thing back into shape, restoring 50% of its health (or the pincer to full health). 

Can catch an enemy in its pincer, slowly crushing them to death (constant health drain). Only putting the pincer out of commission (0 health) frees the captured target. Targets can still attack while grabbed but can only use basic melee attacks on the pincer.

Has a spinning whip-like attack with its 'normal' arm. Where its torso rotates, and its 'normal' arm extends.

Another attack (it uses if targets stay at range) is that it telescopically extends its 'normal' arm into the ground and it lashes up underneath the enemy (a bit like a Broodmother tentacle), stopping them from moving (thus giving the ambling animate time to close the distance). A few good hits dislodge the arm (health equal to a normal opponent lets say) and prevent it from using that attack again for 60 seconds.

Virtually immune to spells (other than force spells), although lightning slows it for a time. Any spells hitting it also affect a grabbed target. 

Okay, thats my basic ideas for Genlocks, any questions? Tomorrow (probably), a similar treatment for Hurlocks.

[soteria]

Of course it has. Just watch the intro video, or listen to the tales about wardens, ore to lot of the dialogue about them. It all comes down to the fact that Wardens are the best.
If you decide to play a supportive mage that´s your choice then; i can only say that in my game my "avatar" is definitely the most powerful party member and gets the most kills.

Except, it's not a fact. Alistair is not particularly remarkable at all, compared to the non-Warden companions you get. Your character is remarkable for reasons that have nothing to do with being a Grey Warden. When you ask Alistair what changes about you after becoming a Warden, he says you become stronger and faster, right? Or am I getting that wrong? Add to that the fact that Wardens apparently get no special training, and "Grey Wardens are elite warriors" starts to sound more like hype and legends than facts.

They're legendary because they kill Archdemons. That has nothing to do with being elite warriors, though they do have high recruiting standards... not that that means they automatically get to learn every fighting style known to man. In fact, why can't warriors learn rogue skills? Why can't rogues learn warrior skills, and why can't mages learn any weapon skills? The answer is because different classes are different, and not everyone has to have access to every ability. Your Warden doesn't have to have access to every ability and spell in the game. That's just silly, and implies that every class *has* to be the same.

Well it seemed like that at least. Maybe it´s because you cut out parts of the fights. Or maybe it´s because I´m right after all, anyways I can´t say I care much.

Normally, I would care about being called a liar, but in your case I can't say it bugs me much, so oh well?  Actually, I'm somewhat sympathetic.  It's safer to be a skeptic, and it's inconvenient to admit you're wrong after getting this invested.

Modifié par soteria, 16 avril 2010 - 09:35 .

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...


Except, it's not a fact. Alistair is not particularly remarkable at all, compared to the non-Warden companions you get. Your character is remarkable for reasons that have nothing to do with being a Grey Warden. When you ask Alistair what changes about you after becoming a Warden, he says you become stronger and faster, right? Or am I getting that wrong? Add to that the fact that Wardens apparently get no special training, and "Grey Wardens are elite warriors" starts to sound more like hype and legends than facts.

So they are the best because only the best are chosen as wardens and not because of warden training. Doesn´t change the fact their best.
And your "Alistair is nothing special" argument is useless, cos it depends on how you use him. In the way I play, for example, he is the second best character after my PC and, on my mage playthrough, I used him most of the time as my tank / DD hybrid on whom the party relyed in every boss fight.....

They're legendary because they kill Archdemons. That has nothing to do with being elite warriors, though they do have high recruiting standards... not that that means they automatically get to learn every fighting style known to man. In fact, why can't warriors learn rogue skills? Why can't rogues learn warrior skills, and why can't mages learn any weapon skills? The answer is because different classes are different, and not everyone has to have access to every ability. Your Warden doesn't have to have access to every ability and spell in the game. That's just silly, and implies that every class *has* to be the same.

It depends on your POV; I am no friend of classes. I liked the Oblivion system best in that regard: You make your own class, and you can use all skills, though your minor skills are harder to level and start with less points in them. I think the DAO class system just limits your freedom as player. For example, a dualwieldwarrior with healing skills, or an archer with stun would be quite cool too.

Well it seemed like that at least. Maybe it´s because you cut out parts of the fights. Or maybe it´s because I´m right after all, anyways I can´t say I care much.

Normally, I would care about being called a liar, but in your case I can't say it bugs me much, so oh well?

Actually, i didn´t say you´re a liar I said I can´t know it from what little evidence I have.

[uberdowzen]

Ok, so this post will probably be a bit of a mess. In no particular order:

• I take light issue with Genlocks being called the games Goblins. Don't think that was approach Bioware was going for.
• Now this is going to seem like nerdy nitpicking, but the Darkspawn are meant to be like ants, not like intelligent humans who just happen to have parts of their faces missing. The whole idea of having a cowardly Darkspawn I think personally kind of goes against the whole idea of darkspawn. And going with the LOTR anology for a minute, if hurlocks are like uruk-hai wouldn't Genlocks be more like the orcs?
• Just changing the subject for a minute, wouldn't it be awesome if someone made a Dragon Age style RPG based on the Lord of the Rings? That'd be awesome.
• I think the fleeing mechanic is OK, but the turning up later part would require careful balancing to stop the encounter they turn up in later becoming too hard. The problem I see is that a bad player would probably have more escapees meaning that they would have a harder battle later on, as opposed to the good players who probably wouldn't have any leftovers making later fights easier.
• What possible use to the darkspawn is stealing one potion? That doesn't even really disadvantage the warden except in boss encounter's or similar.
• I do quite like the grenade idea, that'd add some interesting tactic, the only issue I see is that the AI for that could be quite complicated. I do like that idea though...
• ...except for honey grenades. That doesn't work for me on any level. For starters, bees are attracted to nector not honey (they make honey) and I'm pretty sure that they are only attracted to that because of colourful flowers etc. And you're a Grey Warden, what are bees going to do? You can shrug off being hit with a giant sword the size of your own body, I don't think you're going to mind a few bees.
• How do the trappers goad the heroes to attack them? If the enemy is called a Genlock Trapper you know that to counter them all you need to do is watch them performing their set trap animation. I personally think that traps work better as preset things, I mean even I don't use them during combat.
• The poison thing could work except that you do need to have an item or spell to counter it. That could work though. I still have the problem with the weapon thing that this essentially means that you a) lose your best weapon which is no fun and unless you carry around a whole crapload of weapons means you could be without a way of fighting back.
• Also if they're as effective as they sound, you're going to lose one weapon every 10 seconds or so. In a good run you could lose 6 weapons a minute!
• How are Bombardiers any different than Grenadiers?
• I think emissaries are actually fine as they are. Telekinesis has no counter, and is only useful if there are other enemies about. It seems with this one you've actually removed a tactic from the game where you charge Mages to stop then decimating your party.
• The Forgemaster sounds interesting, but do Darkspawn make their own weapons? I've never been sure on that.
• Nit picking again but, I think the Hammers with anvils on the end would make repairing the fake golems (I'll get to them in a minute) very difficult.
• The fake golems aren't doing it for me. Darkspawn are barely more than animals, how could they work out how to make Golems when it has alluded all but a few of the dwarves for centuries? These Golems also sound more powerful than the dwarves so they've actually created something better than the originals.
• You've only marked the golems as needing a new model. The others may not need an entirely new model (except for the forgemaster) but it's going to be irritating for the player having to either hold tab or mouse over the new genlocks to see how they need to fight them. Quite a few of the variations are going to need a new model so they can recognized in a second (for example the grenadier's will need to have some grenades visible on their bodies.
• I don't want to sound like I think these are all bad ideas, because I don't think they are. There are definetly some good ideas here, but how do any of them make the game better? None of these new enemies seem to require the player to do anything different than usual. Grenadier's for example still are countered in a very similar way to emissaries at the moment. Having items stolen is an inconvinience for the player except that I think that actually takes away some depth.
• Oh, and I forgot the wolf master. I quite like that idea except the wolves returning to master when they reach a certain amount of health. Seems like they'd be very very hard to defeat. Oh and why would the wolves flee if their master died. They're still in a frenzy they'd just keep on attacking. Maybe if they're master dies that just start attacking everything?

[uberdowzen]

Upper_Krust wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

Oh yeah, I agree, when it comes down to it all we really want if DA2 to be even better than DAO. I do kind of think that complaining about all the enemies using the same abilities as you is kinda like complaining in ME2 that all the enemies have guns and shoot you, just like you do.

Well I haven't played ME2 yet (I'll probably pick it up when it drops in price), but thats a wonderfully blase' comment you made that glosses over the depth (or lack of depth) within a game.

I actually think depth is overrated. Mass Effect 2 might not have combat depth, but the combat is still one of the best combat systems in a game in years. Also it has plot depth rather than gameplay depth.

[soteria]

It depends on your POV; I am no friend of classes. I liked the Oblivion system best in that regard: You make your own class, and you can use all skills, though your minor skills are harder to level and start with less points in them. I think the DAO class system just limits your freedom as player. For example, a dualwieldwarrior with healing skills, or an archer with stun would be quite cool too.

I don't have a problem with that type of game, and enjoy it sometimes (Fate was a fun dungeon-crawler), but at the end of the day it's a different kind of game. It makes a lot of sense in the open world, go anywhere, do and be anything setting, but not so much for the games Bioware makes. Lots of freedom and choices can be fun, but have a few more restrictions can be strangely relaxing. It's a matter of making a few big decisions to make a big difference vs making a bunch of small decisions to make a big difference.

Actually, i didn´t say you´re a liar I said I can´t know it from what little evidence I have.

It's possible to deduce the difficulty from watching things like resist rates, damage dealt and received, and friendly fire taken, though you can't know for sure, unless someone tells you... which I did. It would be odd if I didn't know what difficulty it was on, and if that's true, why pretend that I *do* know? Either it's on nightmare, or I'm lying about something.

[soteria]

# Now this is going to seem like nerdy nitpicking, but the Darkspawn are meant to be like ants, not like intelligent humans who just happen to have parts of their faces missing. The whole idea of having a cowardly Darkspawn I think personally kind of goes against the whole idea of darkspawn. And going with the LOTR anology for a minute, if hurlocks are like uruk-hai wouldn't Genlocks be more like the orcs?

I think it's more like hill orcs and cave orcs. One isn't more elite than the other, though genlocks seem to be a little tougher.

Just changing the subject for a minute, wouldn't it be awesome if someone made a Dragon Age style RPG based on the Lord of the Rings? That'd be awesome.

Yes, yes it would.

# I think the fleeing mechanic is OK, but the turning up later part would require careful balancing to stop the encounter they turn up in later becoming too hard. The problem I see is that a bad player would probably have more escapees meaning that they would have a harder battle later on, as opposed to the good players who probably wouldn't have any leftovers making later fights easier.



# What possible use to the darkspawn is stealing one potion? That doesn't even really disadvantage the warden except in boss encounter's or similar.

/shrug. To be honest, I've never liked stealing done by npcs in any game that I can think of. It's really frustrating to the player, or, at least to this player. On the other hand, it would break up some of the monotony of the Deep Roads, and if it's just potions, well, that's not such a big deal.

...except for honey grenades. That doesn't work for me on any level. For starters, bees are attracted to nector not honey (they make honey) and I'm pretty sure that they are only attracted to that because of colourful flowers etc. And you're a Grey Warden, what are bees going to do? You can shrug off being hit with a giant sword the size of your own body, I don't think you're going to mind a few bees.

Actually, from what I understand, bees *will* gather honey if it's there available for gathering. Why bother harvesting the nectar and using it to make honey when some is there ready-made? It's not like they're intentionally making honey for us. Non-africanized bees, even in a swarm, shouldn't be a lethal threat, but I bet they'd make keeping your guard up, casting a spell, or launching an attack hard to focus on. It could be interesting. That said, why a honey grenade? Eliminate the middleman, and just throw the wasp/bees' nest. Don't depend on chance, eh?

I think emissaries are actually fine as they are. Telekinesis has no counter, and is only useful if there are other enemies about. It seems with this one you've actually removed a tactic from the game where you charge Mages to stop then decimating your party.

Pretty sure he was talking about a boss, not the generic emissaries. Is it a bad thing if you can't kill every mage in the game by zerging it? Even boss mages die very quickly to that tactic. Not every spell or ability has to have a counter. If you think about it, most don't. You just suck it up and deal with it. Ideally many of them should (like grab), but, say, Massive Attack doesn't really have a counter. I'd guess force field *would* counter Telekenesis, though, rather appropriately.



I like the grenadier and boss ideas. The grenadier probably wouldn't be able to function with the game tactics, though. If you've ever tried setting them to be used with tactics, well, it's not pretty. Short range + aoe... too bad there's not tactic condition for DON'T use this in certain situations.

1.1f Genlock Wolfmaster - Lieutenant Rank, Level 3



Tactics: Variable. Always accompanied by a pack of Wolves (Normal Rank, Level 3) led by an Alpha Wolf (Lieutenant Rank, Level 3). Doesn't attack unless attacked himself. Uses a (silent?) whistle which sends the wolves into a frenzy though. If a wolf is reduced to 33% health or less it breaks from the pack and returns to the wolfmaster who heals it with some healing balm. If attacked at range, will send the wolves after that individual. If attacked in melee, the wolves run to his defense. If attacked himself, transforms into a werewolf when reduced to 50% health. If slain, the wolves scatter and flee.

I like this idea... just better make them blighted wolves.

[uberdowzen]

Even so, a whole horde of bees isn't going to suddenly go towards one lot of honey. They'd do what bees do go slowly over time. And my point about the mages is changing them like that doesn't just mean that zerging them is ineffective, it means that you just kill them like any other enemy.

[Tirigon]

Upper_Krust wrote...

Dragon Age Monster Revision

Case Study #1: Darkspawn

1.1 Genlocks

If we accept that Genlocks in many ways are the games Goblins to the Hurlocks Orcs (or Uruk-Hai if you prefer), then in general they don't seem very 'gobliny'. To give them their own identity I suggest making them more like skulking rogues than mere warriors (we already have Hurlocks for that).

Behaviour: Defensive (unless otherwise mentioned)
Morale: Cowardly (unless otherwise mentioned). Will try to escape if outnumbered (those who escape show up in a later encounter).

1.1a Genlock Sneak (basic genlock) - Normal Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Hit and Run - Attacks from Stealth, Hits (or misses) which also has a chance of stealing a consumable (potion/salve), then runs away for 10 seconds until the stealth cooldown is over. Rinse and repeat.

1.1b Genlock Grenadier - Normal Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Ranged - Lobs grenades from Stealth. Will try and get multiple opponents in the blast radius if possible. Variable potions (Grease, Glue, Honey, Poison Gas, Firebombs). Each Grenadier might have 3 grenades. If you slay them quickly, you can get remaining grenades. If they use up all their grenades they operate as Genlock Sneaks.

Honey grenades would be used in forested areas where they could attract a swarm of bees.

1.1c Genlock Trapper - Normal Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Passive until attacked. Moves around the battlefield creating traps. Tries to goad the heroes into following him. 
  
1.1d Genlock Master Sneak - Lieutenant Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Hit and Run - Again attacks from Stealth, If he hits, can steal the players weapon. Also, one element that changes him from the basic Genlock Sneak is the use of Poison. Not just dealing more damage, but poison that infects a character and slowly drains their health.

1.1e Genlock Bombadier - Lieutenant Rank, Level 3

Behaviour: Stubborn (fights to the death)
Tactics: Ranged (until reaching 25% which is when he turns into a suicide bomber, charges while screaming and detonates himself in a big explosion). Seemingly has a limitless number of grenades, though if you slay him quickly (before he detonates) you only receive 2.

1.1f Genlock Wolfmaster - Lieutenant Rank, Level 3

Tactics: Variable. Always accompanied by a pack of Wolves (Normal Rank, Level 3) led by an Alpha Wolf (Lieutenant Rank, Level 3). Doesn't attack unless attacked himself. Uses a (silent?) whistle which sends the wolves into a frenzy though. If a wolf is reduced to 33% health or less it breaks from the pack and returns to the wolfmaster who heals it with some healing balm. If attacked at range, will send the wolves after that individual. If attacked in melee, the wolves run to his defense. If attacked himself, transforms into a werewolf when reduced to 50% health. If slain, the wolves scatter and flee.

1.1g Genlock Emissary - Boss Rank, Level 3

Decided to make these bosses, just to give them more time to show what they can do and make them more the default leaders of the Genlocks. For enemy wizards in general I'll try and limit spell lists to four signature spells.

Behaviour: Intelligent (adaptive)
Morale: Normal (Will try and flee if the last man standing)
Tactics: Ranged.

Spell: Telekinesis (Moves an object or ally or opponent). Has multiple potential benefits. Firstly can move an enemy into a trap (possibly set by the Trapper). Could pull an enemy away from a Wolfmaster flinging them into another enemy (bunching enemies together for the Grenadier). Or could hastily remove a Master Sneak from harm after they have stolen an item. Could lift nearby objects and use them as missiles.

Spell: Illusion. Creates an imaginary duplicate of the emissary (while they remain invisible) that the emissary casts spells through. The illusion would be disrupted after taking a small amount of damage (equal to a normal rank enemy).

Spell: Vulnerability Hex.

Spell: Animate Dead (Zombie). Raises a fallen ally as a zombie, this zombie remains until destroyed or until the Emissary is defeated.

1.1h Genlock Forgemaster - Boss Rank, Level 3

Behaviour: Aggressive.
Morale: Stubborn (fights to the death) and Fearsome (no allies will flee until the Forgemaster is defeated)
Tactics: Aggressive. Half-Golem's (?), with their front very heavily armoured while their flanks are relatively normal (Forgemasters are partially dipped face down in molten metal). Carry large 2-handed hammers, the heads of which are anvils. These hammers are not just weapons but can also hammer the Forgeborn back into shape (repairing/healing it 50%). Players gain these hammers when they defeat a Forgemaster.

Hammers can create a wall of fire (as per the spell) by cracking the earth (only works if encountered underground).

Very resistant to fire, but susceptible to cold based attacks.

1.1i Genlock Forgeborn - Boss Rank, Level 3 (NEW MODEL REQUIRED)

The Darkspawn's own crude attempts to create golems. Large stomping humanoids constructed from twisted bits of rusting metal. Lopsided arms with one huge pincered arm on one side and a normal sized clawed-arm on the other.

Behaviour: Aggressive
Morale: Stubborn (will fight to the death)
Tactics: Slow but tough and powerful. Rather than having a front and a flank (on the combat circle), it has two halves split down the middle (as you look face on), so you can attack its left side (main body) or right side (pincer arm). You can target the pincer arm (thus taking away its most powerful attack) or its body (destroying the monster). The pincer arm has less health (50% of that of the body). However, the Forgemaster can batter the thing back into shape, restoring 50% of its health (or the pincer to full health). 

Can catch an enemy in its pincer, slowly crushing them to death (constant health drain). Only putting the pincer out of commission (0 health) frees the captured target. Targets can still attack while grabbed but can only use basic melee attacks on the pincer.

Has a spinning whip-like attack with its 'normal' arm. Where its torso rotates, and its 'normal' arm extends.

Another attack (it uses if targets stay at range) is that it telescopically extends its 'normal' arm into the ground and it lashes up underneath the enemy (a bit like a Broodmother tentacle), stopping them from moving (thus giving the ambling animate time to close the distance). A few good hits dislodge the arm (health equal to a normal opponent lets say) and prevent it from using that attack again for 60 seconds.

Virtually immune to spells (other than force spells), although lightning slows it for a time. Any spells hitting it also affect a grabbed target. 

Okay, thats my basic ideas for Genlocks, any questions? Tomorrow (probably), a similar treatment for Hurlocks.

So, that´s all nice and interesting, but it´s not really fitting to DAO I think. The thing is that I think the overall concept of DAO is very good, with only a few balance changes required to make the combat perfect.

You are inventing bunches of new stuff and trying to change the entire concept, but that´s just not necessary.

It would, however, be good for your own game or a custom campaign or something. Just not for DAO.

[uberdowzen]

I just think as a rule that developers have spent a lot of time and resources on these games and if you have an idea to improve something they a) have probably already thought of it and dismissed it because they can't do it or it doesn't work.

[AlanC9]

Upper_Krust wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Were there really a lot of players who didn't learn that they could switch characters from what's in the game already? Or is it just you?

I hope it was just me, but I doubt it. However, my criticism wasn't necessarily about that specific point but rather that the 'discover it yourself' attitude of the game means that the typical gamer will invariably miss a lot of the nuances in the game.

So you'd prefer it if, for instance, all the spell combinations were given in the manual?. I'm not quite clear where you're going with this.

[AlanC9]

Tirigon wrote...
 I liked the Oblivion system best in that regard: You make your own class, and you can use all skills, though your minor skills are harder to level and start with less points in them.

Of course, classless systems like Oblivion's are generally unbalanced messes. They work OK in PnP, though, where there's a GM to keep things under control.

[Tirigon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
 I liked the Oblivion system best in that regard: You make your own class, and you can use all skills, though your minor skills are harder to level and start with less points in them.

Of course, classless systems like Oblivion's are generally unbalanced messes. They work OK in PnP, though, where there's a GM to keep things under control.

Well, I think they work best in PvE, because balance doesn´t matter so much. If you make a weaker char, turn difficuty down, if you make (like me) an imba char turn it up.

Here, too, is Oblivion a perfect example: Using lots of different mods I was able to create a character with about 3 times the HP and sword damage of what you can have in Vanilla, and spells that could kill EVERY enemy in the game with a single hit. But due to the extreme effect of the difficulty settings in Oblivion I was STILL not able to play on the highest difficulty, while in Awakenings only one fight in the entire game was really hard, and I played on Nightmare all the time.

(ok, you have to impose limits on yourself sometimes; 100% damage reflection and spell reflection is probably a little too much after allB))

[soteria]

I just think as a rule that developers have spent a lot of time and resources on these games and if you have an idea to improve something they a) have probably already thought of it and dismissed it because they can't do it or it doesn't work.

I don't think that's true at all. Otherwise, why bother with feedback? You would think that an author, after spending a lot of time on a book and getting several people, including an editor, to proof it, would be able to publish a flawless product, right? But you'll still find typos, plot holes, and other errors. Just because a group of skilled people work on something for a long time doesn't mean it can't be improved by suggestions from other people.

Modifié par soteria, 17 avril 2010 - 11:33 .

[Upper_Krust]

[quote]uberdowzen wrote...

Ok, so this post will probably be a bit of a mess. In no particular order:[/quote]

Don't worry about that.


[quote]I take light issue with Genlocks being called the games Goblins. Don't think that was approach Bioware was going for.[/quote]

Well if the approach was for Genlocks and Hurlocks to be all but identical (which they are) then I favour my idea which gives them both stronger self-identity.

[quote]Now this is going to seem like nerdy nitpicking, but the Darkspawn are meant to be like ants, not like intelligent humans who just happen to have parts of their faces missing. [/quote]

But intelligent enough to make their own weapons and armour (or is the term Forgemaster meant to mean something else?).


[quote]The whole idea of having a cowardly Darkspawn I think personally kind of goes against the whole idea of darkspawn.[/quote]
 
The genlocks would be cowardly because they would be constantly bullied by the hurlocks.


[quote]And going with the LOTR anology for a minute, if hurlocks are like uruk-hai wouldn't Genlocks be more like the orcs?[/quote]

Orcs in LotR ARE 'Goblins', Uruk-hai, while nominally 'high-orcs' are effectively what the default fantasy Orc has become.


[quote]Just changing the subject for a minute, wouldn't it be awesome if someone made a Dragon Age style RPG based on the Lord of the Rings? That'd be awesome.[/quote]

Could be interesting. Didn't they make a 3rd person action game based on LotR? Did anyone play that - I wonder what it was like?


[quote]I think the fleeing mechanic is OK, but the turning up later part would require careful balancing to stop the encounter they turn up in later becoming too hard.[/quote]
 
We can easily tweak the numbers of the 'Coward' mechanic. While they run if outnumbered. Higher rank allies may count as more than one ally for this purpose.


[quote]The problem I see is that a bad player would probably have more escapees meaning that they would have a harder battle later on, as opposed to the good players who probably wouldn't have any leftovers making later fights easier.[/quote]

True, at first. But it will educate bad players making them better.


[quote]What possible use to the darkspawn is stealing one potion? That doesn't even really disadvantage the warden except in boss encounter's or similar.[/quote]

Yes and no. My thinking for the game overall is to make potions far more important. Firstly by imposing a 60 second cooldown on potions. So the onus will be on the player to craft/buy fewer, stronger potions rather than just have half a dozen of each strength. So when the genlock steals a potion we can always have it be the strongest type the player carries. The genlock could then try to pass that potion on to the leader of that encounter group (if they were still alive), where it will make a difference.


[quote]I do quite like the grenade idea, that'd add some interesting tactic, the only issue I see is that the AI for that could be quite complicated. I do like that idea though...[/quote]

Shouldn't be too complicated. All that needs added to the tactics are a friendly fire mechanic. Then we can specify that the genlock will always try and hit as many enemies in the blast radius while catching as few allies as possible. The choice of grenades could be tailored to the encounter. So that fire grenades would work well in encounters featuring the Forgemaster or Forgeborn. Poison grenades could be a special gas that has little or no effect on darkspawn (or could be used in tandem with undead who would be immune). etc.


[quote]...except for honey grenades. That doesn't work for me on any level. For starters, bees are attracted to nector not honey (they make honey) and I'm pretty sure that they are only attracted to that because of colourful flowers etc. And you're a Grey Warden, what are bees going to do? You can shrug off being hit with a giant sword the size of your own body, I don't think you're going to mind a few bees.[/quote]

A swarm of bees could be a deadly opponent, especially to warriors. They would be hard to hit and even harder to damage.

My initial idea for this would be Wild Sylvans who would have bee's nests in their branches. When hit, the nest would be shook free and fall to the ground. The angry bees attacking those other than plants.


[quote]How do the trappers goad the heroes to attack them? If the enemy is called a Genlock Trapper you know that to counter them all you need to do is watch them performing their set trap animation. I personally think that traps work better as preset things, I mean even I don't use them during combat.[/quote]

Firstly, get away from the notion that all genlocks are going to be openly named and health barred. If necessary I'd just name all similar looking genlocks 'as' "Genlock".

So the Trapper would not be named Genlock Trapper, nor would he look any different to a normal genlock running about. He might stop from time to time but unless he is onscreen and you are specifically watching that genlock you won't notice his antics or where he stops.


[quote]The poison thing could work except that you do need to have an item or spell to counter it. That could work though. [/quote]

Anti-venom potions, or any healing potion or any healing spell could work for this.


[quote]I still have the problem with the weapon thing that this essentially means that you a) lose your best weapon which is no fun and unless you carry around a whole crapload of weapons means you could be without a way of fighting back.[/quote]

Well it would only be a temporary loss. Secondly, you could prevent it. Thirdly, you typically always have a laundry list of weapons in Dragon Age. Fourthly, you could always pick up a weapon from a fallen enemy in that encounter. Fifthly, we could have an unarmed combat tree and getting robbed of a weapon could switch you to the basic punching attack.


[quote]Also if they're as effective as they sound, you're going to lose one weapon every 10 seconds or so. In a good run you could lose 6 weapons a minute![/quote]

Not necessarily. Firstly, they have to hit your flank. What we could do is impose a time limit (unseen to the player, this is just for the AI) that the sneak has to attack every 20 seconds or so. So if you cover your flanks it will still get a stab in, but not at your flank. So it won't be able to steal (which it can only do after a successful flank attack.

Secondly, as noted, it has to hit. It might not always hit. When it attacks (whether it hits or not) it comes out of stealth.


[quote]How are Bombardiers any different than Grenadiers?[/quote]

1. They are Lieutenant Rank, and thus have more health
2. They have more grenades
3. When they get to 25% health they charge the greatest concentration of enemies and blow themselves up in a big explosion.


[quote]I think emissaries are actually fine as they are.[/quote]
 
I disagree, they are too weak and don't have any real signature spells.


[quote]Telekinesis has no counter[/quote]

It would be versus a characters spell resistance. So it wouldn't always work.


[quote]and is only useful if there are other enemies about.[/quote]
 
Or traps, or allies.


[quote]It seems with this one you've actually removed a tactic from the game where you charge Mages to stop then decimating your party.[/quote]

I don't think so.


[quote]The Forgemaster sounds interesting, but do Darkspawn make their own weapons? I've never been sure on that.[/quote]

Why else would he be called a Forgemaster? Being derived from dwarves, genlocks may have some minor talent for weapon/armour smithing.


[quote]Nit picking again but, I think the Hammers with anvils on the end would make repairing the fake golems (I'll get to them in a minute) very difficult.[/quote]

Its a visual gimmick.


[quote]The fake golems aren't doing it for me. Darkspawn are barely more than animals, how could they work out how to make Golems when it has alluded all but a few of the dwarves for centuries?[/quote]

Very simple. Genlocks are (for all intents and purposes) tainted dwarves. They come from dwarven stock. Its not unthinkable that they could have some sort of innate talent for smithing passed down to them.


[quote]These Golems also sound more powerful than the dwarves so they've actually created something better than the originals.[/quote]

1. They are only Level 3, Boss Rank.
2. You haven't seen my golem ideas yet.


[quote]You've only marked the golems as needing a new model. The others may not need an entirely new model (except for the forgemaster) but it's going to be irritating for the player having to either hold tab or mouse over the new genlocks to see how they need to fight them.[/quote]

The forgemaster would need a new texture on the front, though not necessarily a new model.

Also I suggest a new style of gameplay where how to fight enemies is not spoonfed to the player but instead, they actually work out how to best beat them through trial and error.


[quote]Quite a few of the variations are going to need a new model so they can recognized in a second (for example the grenadier's will need to have some grenades visible on their bodies.[/quote]

Just use the model for a grenade and stick a few to the Grenadier/Bombardier in a sort of bandolier.

It would be nice if the Wolfmaster had a wolf pelt as a cloak...maybe the player could take that when they win, it allows them to turn into a werewolf?


[quote]I don't want to sound like I think these are all bad ideas, because I don't think they are.[/quote]

Thanks very much.


[quote]There are definetly some good ideas here, but how do any of them make the game better? None of these new enemies seem to require the player to do anything different than usual.[/quote]
 
Lets examine that notion.

1. The Forgeborn have two sides to them, meaning players can fight them in one of two different ways. Giving the player a CHOICE of how to attack, and those choices have actual consequences.
2. The Forgemaster is strong from the front, meaning flanking him is very important. Plus he has a symbiosis with the Forgeborn meaning players have a CHOICE of who to attack first, and those choices have actual consequences.
3. The Emissary is now not simply a visible target, and he can mess up a players plans even without personally dealing very much damage at all.
4. The Wolfmaster has a symbiosis with the Wolfpack. Again players are given a CHOICE of when and who to attack. If you attack the wolfmaster first he becomes a powerful and dangerous werewolf. If you leave the wolfmaster until later, the wolves are more powerful and also can be healed.
5. The Bombardier could really frighten players, especially depending upon how significant we make his suicidal explosion. I always remember the screaming bombers in Serious Sam and that was the inspiration behind these variants.
6. The Master Sneak adds a new dimension to the game. The ability to take away a players strongest weapon and use it against him! Even without that ability they give players something else to worry about by poisoning them.
7. The Trapper is sort of like a mine layer. The longer you leave him alive, the more perilous getting to the ranged attackers will be. So the CHOICE here is the time factor.
8. The Grenadier would punish players who grouped together for defense (perhaps to avoid flank attacks). So there is this great relationship between grenadiers and sneaks. With players second guessing on whether they should 'stick or twist' as it were. Stick together for defense against the sneaks or split up for defense against the grenadiers.
9. The Sneak would punish characters who run off on their own, exposing their flanks. They can steal potions which they give to their leader.

I honestly think every variant above gives something different.


[quote]Grenadier's for example still are countered in a very similar way to emissaries at the moment. Having items stolen is an inconvinience for the player except that I think that actually takes away some depth.[/quote]

If theres one thing players hate, its losing their items. Players do not fear death in these games. But threaten them with a stolen uber-sword and its squeaky bum time.


[quote]Oh, and I forgot the wolf master. I quite like that idea except the wolves returning to master when they reach a certain amount of health. Seems like they'd be very very hard to defeat. Oh and why would the wolves flee if their master died. They're still in a frenzy they'd just keep on attacking. Maybe if they're master dies that just start attacking everything?[/quote]

Glad you like the idea. But interesting combat is all about choice and consequence. Wolves themselves would have Cowardly morale, so what we could do is treat them as an independent unit. So that when the Wolfmaster is defeated, if the remaining wolves are outnumbered (regardless of other darkspawn 'allies') they would flee.

Modifié par Upper_Krust, 17 avril 2010 - 04:18 .