114 réponses à ce sujet

[IoneWanderer101]

 It's just feminists being feminists. That's all. No-one mentions Thane or Jacobs outfits being tight because they are male and thus their tight outfits are of course not offending.
I'm not saying that i'm offended by them just that these people who protest against Miranda's clothing forget to protest against: Thane's, Jacob's, Samara's, Jack's hell Even Tali's.

I too have read that interview that the OP read and yes it does seem less of a game review, than a feminist and her personal vendetta against Miranda's tight, but no worse than anyone else's outfit.

[LiquidGrape]

IoneWanderer101 wrote...

 It's just feminists being feminists. That's all. No-one mentions Thane or Jacobs outfits being tight because they are male and thus their tight outfits are of course not offending.
I'm not saying that i'm offended by them just that these people who protest against Miranda's clothing forget to protest against: Thane's, Jacob's, Samara's, Jack's hell Even Tali's.

I too have read that interview that the OP read and yes it does seem less of a game review, than a feminist and her personal vendetta against Miranda's tight, but no worse than anyone else's outfit.

Please don't spew ignorant bile on the feminist movement.
Your perception of it is obviously shallow and uninformed.
But it's true that there's a wide plethora of wardrobe malfunctions in Mass Effect 2 -- but none quite as unsubtlety intended to titillate the players libido as Miranda's.
It does her character a great disservice, seeing as there actually is a substantial persona to find underneath it.
But I know I'm not speaking for myself when I say that every time her butt cheeks show up on-screen, a large chunk of her credibility disappears.

[Nicodemus]

A journalist is always looking out for no1. In most cases a journalist will take an angle to get noticed, this is another instance where a slow day at the office suddenly allows a media outlet the opportunity to spout it's claptrap at people.



It's a video game, so what if it has been "sexed up" a bit. Tell me what part of the media/celebrity driven culture that we live in hasn't been?



I can pick up a daily newspaper here in the UK and see a topless woman, there are billboards in London with underwear models wearing not a lot, perfume adverts where women and men are gratuitously having thier bodies displayed to sell a product. Sex sells and the excuse that a video game is too sexual is a pile of crock.



The western world is full of sexual imagery, young girls are encouraged by marketing compaines and clothing ranges to sex themselves up to look older than they are. Yet none of this is really addressed by the journalists.



They see video games as a soft target to spout thier opinions and don't actually look at the real world. This is just a smokescreen to let an opinionated person have a go at a soft target as they are too frightened to actually address the real wrongs in the world.



Miranda's suit is no more or less sexy than a host of actresses who have slipped into figure hugging leather/pvc suits for a film role but I don't see the same complaints being raised.

[Ziggy]

LiquidGrape wrote...

IoneWanderer101 wrote...



It's just feminists being feminists. That's all. No-one mentions Thane or Jacobs outfits being tight because they are male and thus their tight outfits are of course not offending.

I'm not saying that i'm offended by them just that these people who protest against Miranda's clothing forget to protest against: Thane's, Jacob's, Samara's, Jack's hell Even Tali's.



I too have read that interview that the OP read and yes it does seem less of a game review, than a feminist and her personal vendetta against Miranda's tight, but no worse than anyone else's outfit.

Please don't spew ignorant bile on the feminist movement.

Your perception of it is obviously shallow and uninformed.

But it's true that there's a wide plethora of wardrobe malfunctions in Mass Effect 2 -- but none quite as unsubtlety intended to titillate the players libido as Miranda's.

It does her character a great disservice, seeing as there actually is a substantial persona to find underneath it.

But I know I'm not speaking for myself when I say that every time her butt cheeks show up on-screen, a large chunk of her credibility disappears.

^^ seconded.

Men often objectify women and this kind of portrayal panders to that.

[LiquidGrape]

Nicodemus wrote...

It's a video game, so what if it has been "sexed up" a bit. Tell me what part of the media/celebrity driven culture that we live in hasn't been?
[...]
Miranda's suit is no more or less sexy than a host of actresses who have slipped into figure hugging leather/pvc suits for a film role but I don't see the same complaints being raised.

This is quite easily explained. Video games is the new kid on the block.
It's pretty much comparable to the "video nasties scare" of the 1980's, in that media completely ignorant of the subject at hand passes judgement at every available opportunity.
But since even that facet of cinema has established itself, the sensationalists needed a new scapegoat.
- Cue games.

That said, I think the original interview has an honest point in that the gratuitous butt shots are completely out of place, and only serve to infantilize the perception of the medium in general.
Isn't Mass Effect commonly referred to as a "mature game"? Because between Benezia's plunging neckline and Miranda's PVC-fetish getup, it doesn't seem like it.
Now, I'm not a prude who thinks that sexual imagery is "filth!" or degrading per default. There are actually a few games which projects a stunning amount of eroticism without it seeming out of place at all.
See Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines and Hitman: Blood Money for excellent examples.

- But I do take issue with nonsense like Miranda's behind. Simply because it serves no real purpose other than making a few masses erect.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 09 avril 2010 - 12:00 .

[Nicodemus]

I take your point about it being the "new genre" to take pot shots at and I also see your point in regards to the rather shameless lingering on the characters bum.



As someone else pointed out in this thread though, the fault isn't so much the devlopers fault, even though we know a good percentage of them are more than guilty of perpetuating the "sexualtiy" of the games, it's more to do with parents and retailers not actually polcing themselves.



ME1 was a 12 over here and there really isn't much in the way of titilation, there is suggestion but nothing as overtly gratuitous as ME2, yet if I remember rightly certain elements of the US media took offence (not entirely sure). ME2 has a 15 rating, as soon as I saw that I knew that the game was maybe a little racier and/or violent than the previous one. If a parent cannot discern that a game is not suitable for thier child when agreeing to purchase it then it is not the developers fault. Likewise a retailer that allows a person they suspect of being underage to obtain a game is again doing the developer no justice.



Yes, the developer might be at fault for helping to perpetuate a stereotype and a certain degree of disappointment can be leveled at them for doing so. At the end of the day though the images being displayed are totally made up and to level criticism on a computer generated backside is a tad disappointing when as we all know we can see worse by turning on the TV or opening a magazine.



ME2 offers little really in the "corrupting sexuality" of the genre compared to something like Grand Theft Auto. Yes the lingering bum shots are a tad annoying but not really all that harmful in the grand scheme of things, I can think of worse from other games (GTA). I still feel that the interview is nit picking for the sake of nit picking to have an opinion that will cause discussion and to get themselves noticed.

[phordicus]

backlash against Wynne. no one wants to see their grandmother in a corset.

[Nu-Nu]

I don't understand was is so wrong about women having sex appeal, doesn't make them dumber and plus I like my men to have sex appeal, so why shouldn't men have the same? I just wish they make more scenes for women too, like naked Kaiden in me1, Jacob topless scene would have been nice if he didn't have an annoying personality.

[vhatever]

What? Wynne is full of win, and she has the personality of fine wine!

Anyway, who the hell turned my gaming forum into a women's studies propaganda course.

I'd like someone to explain how miranda, who is covered from head to toe, is some how overexposed and exploited when Jack is running around with tooth floss for a bra.

Face it, you don't like Miranda dressed up hot because she's got big ****** and you don't.

Modifié par vhatever, 09 avril 2010 - 12:42 .

[Nicodemus]

vhatever wrote...

What? Wynne is full of win, and she has the personality of fine wine!

Anyway, who the hell turned my gaming forum into a women's studies propaganda course.

I'd like someone to explain how miranda, who is covered from head to toe, is some how overexposed and exploited when Jack is running around with tooth floss for a bra.

Face it, you don't like Miranda dressed up hot because she's got big ****** and you don't.

That is shorted sighted of you vhatever, there is no need to take a personal pot shot at someone who is arguing a semi valid point that was made by a journalist.

I do agree with you that to complain about lingering bum shots on miranda but not really complain about Jack somewhat proves that the journalist was making noise for making noises sake.

[LiquidGrape]

Nicodemus wrote...

Yes, the developer might be at fault for helping to perpetuate a stereotype and a certain degree of disappointment can be leveled at them for doing so. At the end of the day though the images being displayed are totally made up and to level criticism on a computer generated backside is a tad disappointing when as we all know we can see worse by turning on the TV or opening a magazine.

Oh, I don't think that the overt sexualization in media is corrupting, I just think it reflects rather poorly on us.

vhatever wrote...

I'd like someone to explain how miranda, who is covered from head to toe, is some how overexposed and exploited when Jack is running around with tooth floss for a bra.

There's an interesting dichotomy there, because whereas Jack's outfit is thoroughly useless in any practical sense, it's perfectly logical in conjunction with her character traits.
She wants to project a certain attitude, and her ink and exposed, lithely muscular frame does that quite effectively.
Miranda on the other hand bemoans at more than one point that she can't "hide her good looks".
- Can anyone tell me how that makes for consistent characterization?

Face it, you don't like Miranda dressed up hot because she's got big ****** and you don't.

Well, it's true that I don't have big ******. But then again, I'm male. So your inane attempt at pigeonholing feminists failed quite miserably.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 09 avril 2010 - 01:07 .

[Ziggy]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Nicodemus wrote...

Yes, the developer might be at fault for helping to perpetuate a stereotype and a certain degree of disappointment can be leveled at them for doing so. At the end of the day though the images being displayed are totally made up and to level criticism on a computer generated backside is a tad disappointing when as we all know we can see worse by turning on the TV or opening a magazine.

Oh, I don't think that the overt sexualization in media is corrupting, I just think it reflects rather poorly on us.

vhatever wrote...

I'd like someone to explain how miranda, who is covered from head to toe, is some how overexposed and exploited when Jack is running around with tooth floss for a bra.

There's an interesting dichotomy there, because whereas Jack's outfit is thoroughly useless in any practical sense, it's perfectly logical in conjunction with her character traits.
She wants to project a certain attitude, and her ink and exposed, lithely muscular frame does that quite effectively.
Miranda on the other hand bemoans at more than one point that she can't "hide her good looks".
- Can anyone tell me how that makes for consistent characterization?

Face it, you don't like Miranda dressed up hot because she's got big ****** and you don't.

Well, it's true that I don't have big ******. But then again, I'm male. So your inane attempt at pigeonholing feminists failed quite miserably.

LiquidGrape, you are a credit to your gender.

[FlyingWalrus]

So, basically, if Miranda were running around in a space bikini, a la Jane Fonda in Barbarella, it would be fitting for the character because she's a wily, canny femme fatale who looks good and f'ing knows it, even though it would make zero ****ing sense in the setting, because since she knows she can't hide it she might as well use it?

Interestingtheory.

lolfeminists

[LiquidGrape]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

So, basically, if Miranda were running around in a space bikini, a la Jane Fonda in Barbarella, it would be fitting for the character because she's a wily, canny femme fatale who looks good and ****g knows it, even though it would make zero ****ing sense in the setting, because since she knows she can't hide it she might as well use it?

No. Because you obviously ignored the point I was making.
It wouldn't fit Miranda, because she and Jack are two completely different characters.

[FlyingWalrus]

So you say. Parse a bit further before you off-handedly assume that someone ignored your point, which, by the way, wasn't so subtle as to be possibly read over. Miranda is a very dominant, confident, and at times manipulative personality. This is established from the very outset. If anyone would be flaunting anything, it would be her.

[LiquidGrape]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

So you say. Parse a bit further before you off-handedly assume that someone ignored your point, which, by the way, wasn't so subtle as to be possibly read over.

True, I was being a tad rash there. My apologies.

Miranda is a very dominant, confident, and at times manipulative personality. This is established from the very outset. If anyone would be flaunting anything, it would be her.

This is true to an extent, if contradicted by Miranda herself later on. Sure, if her insecurities are latent her choice of attire isn't such a stretch. But being part of, and devout to a precise military operation, logic would dictate that her outfit would be something more practical.
This is the fundamental difference between her and Jack. Miranda has to stay professional, to a certain degree.
Jack isn't in a position to necessitate anything like that.

Still, this doesn't explain the games obsession with her figure.
Well, it doesn't take much effort to guess why; but that doesn't mean I think the reason is sound.

[IoneWanderer101]

LiquidGrape wrote...

IoneWanderer101 wrote...

 It's just feminists being feminists. That's all. No-one mentions Thane or Jacobs outfits being tight because they are male and thus their tight outfits are of course not offending.
I'm not saying that i'm offended by them just that these people who protest against Miranda's clothing forget to protest against: Thane's, Jacob's, Samara's, Jack's hell Even Tali's.

I too have read that interview that the OP read and yes it does seem less of a game review, than a feminist and her personal vendetta against Miranda's tight, but no worse than anyone else's outfit.

Please don't spew ignorant bile on the feminist movement.
Your perception of it is obviously shallow and uninformed.
But it's true that there's a wide plethora of wardrobe malfunctions in Mass Effect 2 -- but none quite as unsubtlety intended to titillate the players libido as Miranda's.
It does her character a great disservice, seeing as there actually is a substantial persona to find underneath it.
But I know I'm not speaking for myself when I say that every time her butt cheeks show up on-screen, a large chunk of her credibility disappears.

I agree that women need the same and equal rights as men, but unlike most i don't believe that it's only for circumstances but ALL of the time not when it suites one party. for example yes women should have equal job oppertunities as men, but men should not be disadvantaged when it comes to a job because the employer is afraid of upsetting people and being sexist. It's who is right for the job, not who is the one they least want to offend. I agree that sexism is a major problem, but it works both ways.

(Yes the job thing was a bad example but it was all i could come up with.)

And yes Miranda's camera angles are a bit revealing and don't leave much to the imagination, but that is no reason to base your opinion of both the character and the game for that reason. Remember the game for the game, not the outfits or camera angles.
(yes i am aware that i'll be called ignorant for this post but i don't really care.)

Modifié par IoneWanderer101, 09 avril 2010 - 02:07 .

[LiquidGrape]

IoneWanderer101 wrote...
I agree that women need the same and equal rights as men, but unlike most i don't believe that it's only for circumstances but ALL of the time not when it suites one party. for example yes women should have equal job oppertunities as me, but men should not be disadvantaged when it comes to a job because the employer is afraid of upsetting people and being sexist. It's who is right for the job, not who is the one they least want to offend. I agree that sexism is a major problem, but it works both ways.

Oh, absolutely. Not arguing that; sexism is binary. I just want to make it clear that women who hate men aren't feminist. They are misandrist.

[Lord Coake]

Stuff like Miranda's getup will always cause controversy in a puritanical hell like the US.

[IoneWanderer101]

oh ok i think this was just a misunderstanding on both our parts really.

[FlyingWalrus]

Yes, Miranda does show her insecurities later on. I don't want to discuss this too much because it's a spoilerfest, but you could also say that the confidence and professionalism is a facade she puts on to hide her vulnerability. She loathes the weakness, and she looks at everyone around her as a potential enemy, not willing to let anyone get an upper hand on her.

Miranda does indeed need to keep professional, as it's doubtful that she would command as much respect being clad any more scantily than she already is. The sexual nature of her outfit is even commented on by another character in the game, so it's clear that Miranda chooses to appear this way. She understands the power of sex appeal, thus, and she's allowed to go this route because of the liberty that The Illusive Man has given her.

As for the occasional shots of gratuity, that's just fan service. It's as simple as you think, and not really any different from what's typical on prime time television nowadays. I don't think there's anything wrong with a little sexuality. To be fair, Jacob, too, is wearing a tight, leather-analogue outfit for the ladies out there (and men, if you're so inclined).

Then again, I think Miranda's is a tame case of female objectification. You'd have to go to things like the recently released DOA Paradise to offend my sensibilities. Now that is a vile objectification in games if ever there was any. I think that there should be a little leeway in games for a little political incorrectness, but this is a "game" that reduces its characters to vapid, giggling bimbos and the player to a creepy stalker with a camera.

[Ziggy]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Miranda is a very dominant, confident, and at times manipulative personality. This is established from the very outset. If anyone would be flaunting anything, it would be her.

It's not so much what she's wearing as how she is sexualised by the camera angles - read the article. Women get objectified by men too often as it is. We're not here for solely your entertainment and being confident does not mean wanting to pander to your sexual fantasies. I'm so sick of men thinking like that.

Modifié par Em23, 09 avril 2010 - 02:14 .

[FlyingWalrus]

It's not so much what she's wearing as how she is sexualised by the camera angles - read the article. Women get objectified by men too often as it is. We're not here for solely your entertainment and being confident does not mean wanting to pander to your sexual fantasies. I'm so sick of men thinking like that.

Then blame the camera and not the character. As a character, Miranda stands well on her own. The confidence is hers. The cinematography was a presentation choice made by the team responsible for that. To be honest, I caught few instances of this myself. I know because I was specifically looking for this sort of thing, being the man that wants his sexual fantasies pandered to.

[LiquidGrape]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Yes, Miranda does show her insecurities later on. I don't want to discuss this too much because it's a spoilerfest, but you could also say that the confidence and professionalism is a facade she puts on to hide her vulnerability. She loathes the weakness, and she looks at everyone around her as a potential enemy, not willing to let anyone get an upper hand on her.
Miranda does indeed need to keep professional, as it's doubtful that she would command as much respect being clad any more scantily than she already is. The sexual nature of her outfit is even commented on by another character in the game, so it's clear that Miranda chooses to appear this way. She understands the power of sex appeal, thus, and she's allowed to go this route because of the liberty that The Illusive Man has given her.
As for the occasional shots of gratuity, that's just fan service. It's as simple as you think, and not really any different from what's typical on prime time television nowadays. I don't think there's anything wrong with a little sexuality. To be fair, Jacob, too, is wearing a tight, leather-analogue outfit for the ladies out there (and men, if you're so inclined).
Then again, I think Miranda's is a tame case of female objectification. You'd have to go to things like the recently released DOA Paradise to offend my sensibilities. Now that is a vile objectification in games if ever there was any. I think that there should be a little leeway in games for a little political incorrectness, but this is a "game" that reduces its characters to vapid, giggling bimbos and the player to a creepy stalker with a camera.

All valid points; especially the latter.
I know there are far worse examples of ill-advised smut than the occasional bum shot; but I suppose my reaction is so visceral because I had thought better of Bioware, if that makes any sense.
With the exception of Benezia's rather prominent...uh..."segmentation", the first game was virtually bereft of any kind of cheap virtual stimuli.
And I'd like to reiterate something I mentioned earlier; I am not opposed to sex in games.
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines is a perfect example of a game which dealth with mature themes, but didn't just do it for the sake of fanservice or upping the rating a few notches.
It explored the subject quite poignantly at times, and it always stayed true to the thematic arc of the game.

[FlyingWalrus]

I, on the other hand, have always seen BioWare as a company that isn't afraid to push the envelope of what's acceptable in a game. This is the first game, really, in which they've even made attempts at complex cinematography. If you look at Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1, the camera is little more active than it was during Knights of the Old Republic or Jade Empire. That they've apparently shifted a little towards industry norms doesn't bother me much, although it's strange given their attitude towards the inclusion of homosexual romances in ME2.