126 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote..
A dalish that didn't mind siding with the werewolves against his own people of course

One word for that: Cammen.

Seriously do I need to state another reason?

Nope, you're fine.
You can start a genocide with that as a reason, and you are justified.

MutantSpleen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...
 I haven't seen Tevinter yet, but when I look at what the dwarfs had they put other races to shame.

Except for the Qunari. I think they, for now at least, surpass the dwarves in terms of technology.  

Yeah those giants may have gained the upper hand at least for gunpowder. But they haven't lost 80% of their cities to the Blight. They didn't even know what the Blight was. We've been a little preoccupied.

They had to deal with Exalting lunies though.

The dwarves have an abundance of natural ressources (like Lyrium). That definately gives them an advantage. In fact, most of their inventions are lyrium based, if I am not mistaken. We don't know if the Qunari are blessed with abundant natural ressources. Seeing how aggresive they are, I would say they don't have that much.
Plus, constant war is good soemtimes. Forces you to adapt and develop in order to survive.

And it's not only explosives. Sigrun didn't even know what "optics" means. Of course, it's maybe because she is a casteless, so has no idea about such things. But still, it seems to me that if the Qunari have developped optics, then they probably have become advanced in other scientific fields. 

But in general, other than the Dwarves and the Qunari, the other races are primitive.
I personally support a Dwarven / Qunari alliance. 

I think that may be caste related as in the Stolen Throne it is mentioned that dwarves have glasses (the seeing kind)

[Sarah1281]

Spoiler alert. They only have two city's left.

That was when they lost everything all at once during the First Blight. The surface hardly did better (it went on for ninety years, after all) but they were able to recover since the darkspawn retreated into the dwarven underground empire. And post-Awakening they have three.

[Thalorin1919]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Spoiler alert. They only have two city's left.

That was when they lost everything all at once during the First Blight. The surface hardly did better (it went on for ninety years, after all) but they were able to recover since the darkspawn retreated into the dwarven underground empire. And post-Awakening they have three.

Plus King Bhelen reclaims a couple thaigs. So I'm guessing if you made him King in Origins, then by the end of Awakening the dwarves probably have what....five or six cities?

[Mlai00]

I wanna golem with Qunari cannon technology!

Maybe Shale will come back with cannons for arms! Or cannons for extra arms! Or a cannon where her mouth used to be!

You wanna get at those birds up in the sky, doncha Shale? Here's your chance!

[SirOccam]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Elves are hated by humans and for a bloody good reason. During the second Blight the elves did squat to help Orlais ( the country which was formed by one of Andraste's sons ), an elven army stood by and just let Montsimmard get sacked while they watched.

As for the exalted March against the elves, it was the elves who attacked Orlais first at Red Crossing. That prompted the war, not the Orlesians attacking the elves or something else.

The elves deserve what they got in my eyes ( and yes before anyone asks me, I do have an elf playthrough, a Dalish Elf to be more exact )

So every elf should have those actions held against them? They "deserve" it? It's a "bloody good reason" to hate them? Elves that had no part in any of that still deserve to live in squalor as second-class citizens? So I guess that means there have never been any bad humans or Dwarves? Or is it just that it's different for them?

It was not "the elves" that did (or did not do) these things. It may have been groups of elves, but it's hardly justification for damning an entire race. I like playing elven characters for that exact reason...there's no end to the crap they get just for being an elf (the only reason you can stand up to any of these people is because you're a Grey Warden...without that there's no chance), and if anyone has reason for being prejudiced against another race, it's elves against humans. But then the character meets humans that all play a part in changing his mind.

I really, really dislike Dwarves, but at least I acknowledge that it's totally irrational and I don't try to justify it or argue that it's right.

[Sarah1281]

I really, really dislike Dwarves, but at least I acknowledge that it's totally irrational and I don't try to justify it or argue that it's right.

I don't think that it's right the way elves are treated but I do think that it's understandable. A group of elves screwed everyone else over during a Blight and they worshipped enemies of the Maker anyway so of course that was going to cause some problems and the Chantry lead a Divine March. By the time the anger about the elven actions faded, people on both sides were used to the elves being subjugated and it's just the way things are for them.

[thegreateski]

That's funny SirOccam. I hate Elves but I also have no reason for it.

Gotta agree though. There is a huge difference between defeating your enemy and defeating your enemy then destroying their nation.

For example, the Orlesians also conquered Ferelden didn't they? I sure don't remember them absorbing the nation like they did with the Elves. Instead they treated it like a colony.

Modifié par thegreateski, 10 avril 2010 - 08:00 .

[Nyjahl]

MutantSpleen wrote...

The dwarfs would be the pinnacle of civilization if were not for the damn Blight. Can you imagine the technological wonders they would have access to? The Deep Roads are beyond imagining, that is some amazing engineering. I haven't seen Tevinter yet, but when I look at what the dwarfs had they put other races to shame.

How can you hate the best craftsmen in the world?

MutantSpleen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But in general, other than the Dwarves and the Qunari, the other races are primitive.
I personally support a Dwarven / Qunari alliance. 

That would be scary.

A Dwarven/Qunari alliance would be a devastating force indeed. One could only imagine what would have happened if the Blights never came to pass (or once they are all over).

Dwarves were/are far more advanced technologically than humans, but politically, they are somewhat like the drow elves of D&D. The Tevinter Imperium would have probably been very hard pressed if they had ever decided to war against the dwarves (and might even have lost).

There is certain amount of repect deserved to the dwarves for holding back countless hordes of darkspawn for so many centuries, and now with only two isolated cities.

[Mlai00]

You can't talk about "a single group" of elves. When you say elves, you mean all of them. This is because:

1. They are culturally and ethnically cohesive, due to their loooooong history/culture and their adaptive genetics.

2. They cannot be ethnically absorbed into another people. They are either 100% elf, or they're not.

Bioware said they're inspired by the jewry. It's true, look how Jews managed to hold onto their culture and history through all the millennia, despite never having a nation of their own. Many other cultures disappeared long ago, being absorbed into the dominant population or mutually fusing into a new culture.

Which is why when ppl speak of Jews as a people, they don't think "European Jews" vs "American Jews" vs whatever. Sure they live in different places, but in the end they all stick together.

I'm prolly gonna get flamed for some perceived racism, now.

[Dokarqt]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

F- the Dwarves did not give birth to Cammen.

Hahaha

[Costin_Razvan]

So every elf should have those actions held against them? They "deserve" it? It's a "bloody good reason" to hate them? Elves that had no part in any of that still deserve to live in squalor as second-class citizens? So I guess that means there have never been any bad humans or Dwarves? Or is it just that it's different for them?

It was not "the elves" that did (or did not do) these things. It may have been groups of elves, but it's hardly justification for damning an entire race. I like playing elven characters for that exact reason...there's no end to the crap they get just for being an elf (the only reason you can stand up to any of these people is because you're a Grey Warden...without that there's no chance), and if anyone has reason for being prejudiced against another race, it's elves against humans. But then the character meets humans that all play a part in changing his mind.

I really, really dislike Dwarves, but at least I acknowledge that it's totally irrational and I don't try to justify it or argue that it's right.

You don't get it, do you? The elves of the Dales ( which was the only elven country btw and in which most of it not all of the elves lived in before it was destroyed ) did nothing to help during the second Blight, as I said before: One of their armies stood by and watch as the second most important orlesian city was almost destroyed.

It should be remember that Orlais was supposed to be their ally, after all it was formed by one of Andraste's sons.


Then they attacked and took a orlesian city. Which sparked the war between them and the subsequent exalted march.

So yes, the elves did deserve what they got back then. And they still do deserve what they got because the Dalish are nothing better then bandits ( codex entries say that Dalish are very well known for attacking caravans ).

As for the City Elves, they payed for what their ancestors did back then, so yeah I will admit they don't deserve anything.

 Gotta agree though. There is a huge difference between defeating your enemy and defeating your enemy then destroying their nation.

For example, the Orlesians also conquered Ferelden didn't they? I sure don't remember them absorbing the nation like they did with the Elves. Instead they treated it like a colony.

Perhaps, but maybe Orlais felt that land had belonged to them in the first place. Do remember that Andraste gave the elves freedom and that her sons gave that land to the elves. In return what did the elves do? They let the 2nd Blight ravage Orlais without lifting a finger.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So yes, the elves did deserve what they got back then. And they still do deserve what they got because the Dalish are nothing better then bandits ( codex entries say that Dalish are very well known for attacking caravans ).

And who wrote those codex entries? I agree that there is a grain of truth in it, but it's most likely hyperbole.

[Sarah1281]

And who wrote those codex entries? I agree that there is a grain of truth in it, but it's most likely hyperbole.

The Dalish didn't seem to have a huge problem with Tamlen and the DE killing those humans for basically being in the wrong place at the wrong time, did they? I mean, yeah, the Keeper disapproved but it wasn't a huge 'you must never do that!' thing.

[ejoslin]

Mlai00 wrote...

You can't talk about "a single group" of elves. When you say elves, you mean all of them. This is because:
1. They are culturally and ethnically cohesive, due to their loooooong history/culture and their adaptive genetics.
2. They cannot be ethnically absorbed into another people. They are either 100% elf, or they're not.
Bioware said they're inspired by the jewry. It's true, look how Jews managed to hold onto their culture and history through all the millennia, despite never having a nation of their own. Many other cultures disappeared long ago, being absorbed into the dominant population or mutually fusing into a new culture.
Which is why when ppl speak of Jews as a people, they don't think "European Jews" vs "American Jews" vs whatever. Sure they live in different places, but in the end they all stick together.
I'm prolly gonna get flamed for some perceived racism, now.

I hope not, because you make a really good point.

[SirOccam]

Mlai00 wrote...

You can't talk about "a single group" of elves. When you say elves, you mean all of them. This is because:
1. They are culturally and ethnically cohesive, due to their loooooong history/culture and their adaptive genetics.
2. They cannot be ethnically absorbed into another people. They are either 100% elf, or they're not.

That is all irrelevant. The elves alive today (or "present day" in DAO anyway) are not the same ones that did these deeds you find so distasteful. Yet you and others are arguing that not only *can* they still be held accountable for the actions of those others, but it is *right* to do so. They may have a tight-knit culture or whatever, but they're not the Borg. They are individuals, capable of independent thought and action.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You don't get it, do you? The elves of the Dales ( which was the only
elven country btw and in which most of it not all of the elves lived in
before it was destroyed ) did nothing to help during the second Blight,
as I said before: One of their armies stood by and watch as the second
most important orlesian city was almost destroyed.

It should be remember that Orlais was supposed to be their ally, after all it was formed by one of Andraste's sons.

Then they attacked and took a orlesian city. Which sparked the war between them and the subsequent exalted march.

So
yes, the elves did deserve what they got back then. And they still do
deserve what they got because the Dalish are nothing better then
bandits ( codex entries say that Dalish are very well known for
attacking caravans ).

No, I get it. Some Dalish elves did some bad things a long time ago. And not only do you hold EVERY Dalish elf *back then* accountable for those actions, but you also hold every Dalish elf around *today* accountable for them.

Sorry in advance for Godwin-ing the thread, but you can't hold every 30's-40's-era German responsible for the actions of Hitler and the ****s, and certainly not every German today. Clearly some people who were in power made those decisions, and those obliged to follow their orders did exactly that, but:
1. You're looking back on all this, and hindsight, as we all know, is 20/20. We have no idea what the circumstances were like back then (not that I'm saying the actions are likely excusable)
2. You can't say that every single Dalish elf agreed 100% with those decisions and were in a position to do something about them. Again, they are not the Borg.

As for the banditry, well it's exactly the same thing. Yes, some Dalish hate humans and are very hostile towards outsiders. Whether that's justified or not, again it's not like there's some Dalish hive mind that makes the decision to do these things. You're holding an entire race of people accountable for the actions of a few, and that is the very definition of prejudice and stereotype. Some humans do some pretty awful things, as do some Dwarves, but those are the actions of individuals. My City Elf quickly learned that humans aren't all Vaughans.

EDIT: I can't believe n.a.z.i is considered a bad word. Covering it up with asterisks doesn't mean it didn't happen! Gah.

Modifié par SirOccam, 11 avril 2010 - 04:16 .

[mothmantis]

I don't think there's as much racism towards the dwarfs because it's far safer to verbally abuse a skinny tree-hugging pacifist than a barrel-shaped madman genetically conditioned to respond to threats by getting drunk and charging with an axe.

[Mirthadrond]

I don't care for the dwaves. They don't have a cammon, but they've got a Ruck and Sandel, which is far worse.

They are lousy fighters, incapable of doing in 400 years, what takes my Grey Warden 1 afternoon. Their beer/mead tastes like dirt, which is such a great offence to beer and mead it's enough justification to exterminate them.

They're political and cast system is borderline retarded. Nay, it is retarded.



Shortly after my warden saves the world, the chantry starts and exhaulted march to avenge the death of one of their priests, which leads to further isolation.



I purposly place harromont in charge because I know it leads to an even bigger decline in dwarf/surface interaction.

The dwarves are doomed. Their only friends will be darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mlai00 wrote...

You can't talk about "a single group" of elves. When you say elves, you mean all of them. This is because:
1. They are culturally and ethnically cohesive, due to their loooooong history/culture and their adaptive genetics.
2. They cannot be ethnically absorbed into another people. They are either 100% elf, or they're not.
Bioware said they're inspired by the jewry. It's true, look how Jews managed to hold onto their culture and history through all the millennia, despite never having a nation of their own. Many other cultures disappeared long ago, being absorbed into the dominant population or mutually fusing into a new culture.
Which is why when ppl speak of Jews as a people, they don't think "European Jews" vs "American Jews" vs whatever. Sure they live in different places, but in the end they all stick together.
I'm prolly gonna get flamed for some perceived racism, now.

Actually, there are divisions between Jews. Sephardic, Ashken@zi and Mizrahi amongst others. And they didn't always get along. For example, when Israel was created in 1948, the Ashken@zis were the dominant political elite and the other two ethnicities were somewhat excluded from the political process. This changed now of course (mostly). And that's not to mention Orthodox vs secular and other divisions on religious fronts.

And I do not believe the Jews of Europe held on to their culture that much. They afterall spoke Yiddish, a Germanic language that has nothing to do with Hebrew. Hebrew and Jewish culture in general undertook a revival in Muslim Spain. Before that, their culture was very weakened and pseudo absorbed. I say pseudo because it's hard being aborbed to a people that hate you and try to kill you whenever something goes wrong. 

It was the Zionist political elites who didn't want to be absorbed and initially, they were not popular, as most Jews saw themselves as not 100% Jews but as Polish Jews, Russian Jews...etc. It was only after 1945 (naturally) that Zionism (the idea of a Jewish people) became popular.

EDIT: LOL I can't erven say Ashken@zi. Stupid censoring.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 avril 2010 - 05:00 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Interestingly, something like 5 to 10% of the Spanish population has Sephardic Jewish ancestry. That's even higher than the number of Spaniards with Moorish ancestry, and the Moors occupied Iberia for a good 800 years.



Jews have been absorbed and intermarried with local populations throught history. When you consider the original Hebrews were Semites and close cousins of the Arabs, and you look at most modern day Jewish people, you can see that they often look different. It's because of intermarriage with whatever Gentile population they were living with at the time.



very few Jewish communities and groups have remained unmixed with no integration with the local population. They might have tight knit communities in some populations, but this often has led to problems.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Interestingly, something like 5 to 10% of the Spanish population has Sephardic Jewish ancestry. That's even higher than the number of Spaniards with Moorish ancestry, and the Moors occupied Iberia for a good 800 years.

Because of the Inquisition. I am surprised that no one qualifies it as ethnic cleansing, because it was one of the very few very succesful genocides.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
When you consider the original Hebrews were Semites and close cousins of the Arabs,

Not many people know that unfortunately.
Hebrews are an off shoot of the Amorites, who themselves were bedouins from the Arabian Peninsula and who migrated north in approximately the 24th century BC.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 avril 2010 - 05:59 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because of the Inquisition. I am surprised that no one qualifies it as ethnic cleansing, because it was one of the very few very succesful genocides.

That's the main part of it. Those who were Muslim that didn't leave or convert were pretty much dead meat, and since very few were willing to convert, they were wiped out. Even Moorish Christians were killed "just to be safe".

The Jews were given the same option. Many publically converted, though practiced Judism in secret, and became absorbed by the population at large. Thus, through adpating, they survived genetically, at least.

but yes, the Inquisition was part religous crusade, part genocide, part political tool. Nasty chunk of history, there. Strangely, though they wanted to wipe out everyone remotely suspected of being Moorish Muslims, they kept the Moorish infratsructure and buildings, such as fortresses and bathhouses and mosques. Because it was still useful and advanced.

Not many people know that unfortunately.
Hebrews are an off shoot of the Amorites, who themselves were bedouins from the Arabian Peninsula and who migrated north in approximately the 24th century BC.

Even the Bible, Koran, and Torah agree on this. Both Jews and Arabs claim common ancetry through Abraham, who is stated in the bible to have been a tribesman herder who had moved his flocks north to Ur, in modern day Iraq.

[Sarah1281]

I don't care for the dwaves. They don't have a cammon, but they've got a Ruck and Sandel, which is far worse.

They are lousy fighters, incapable of doing in 400 years, what takes my Grey Warden 1 afternoon. 

Sandal is awesome and fully capabe of wiping out tons of darkspawn (he did at the end at Fort Drakon, in fact). Besides, Sandal is probaby lyrium-addled and Ruck is turning into a ghoul. They are hardly examples of normal dwarves. And your Warden is not only the most talented fighter around but also immune to darkspawn corruption. Clearing the area of darkspawn is only a temporary measure and they'll be back. Harrowmont/Bhelen and Branka were the ones who found the way to the Anvil.

 

Their beer/mead tastes like dirt, which is such a great offence to beer and mead it's enough justification to exterminate them.

They live underground and have practically no resources. They don't grow food themselves so how do you expect them to make decent alcohol? They have to put dirt in it and all the nobles import alcohol from the surface anyway.

They're political and cast system is borderline retarded. Nay, it is retarded. I purposly place harromont in charge because I know it leads to an even bigger decline in dwarf/surface interaction.

True, their caste system and way of doing politics is messed up. You just made it worse by putting the traditionalist in charge instead of the one who also thinks its stupd and intended to bring about change.

Shortly after my warden saves the world, the chantry starts and exhaulted march to avenge the death of one of their priests, which leads to further isolation.

It never says that. It says that they 'consider' and exalted march but it will probably never happen because then they lose their monopoly on the lyrium trade and if the dwarves are no longer the first line of defense against the darkspawn they become a surface problem again. And if Brother Burkel doesn't inspire talk of an exalted march then Dagna's research sends apostates to Orzammar to have an unsupervised circle that also leads to talk of a march.

[Costin_Razvan]

SirOccam: I could try and argue my personal opinion, but my personal opinion doesn't matter in this argument.



The people of Thaedas hate the Elves, or more specifically The Dalish Elves for the reasons I listed. The City Elves are not so much hated but looked upon with contempt, and no one likes vagrants and thieves ( like the city elves are ).

[Mirthadrond]

Bhaaa, dwarves are the rednecks of ferelden, who's only saving grace is their ability to cut rock and mine an addictive substance.

Dwarves are constantly harrased by the darkspawn because the gods hate them. The gods hate them because the dwarves don't acknowledge their existence, but instead worship dead ancestors who are powerless.



We don't know sandal killed those darkspawn, we only know he's there. For all we know the guards put up a hell of a fight and sandal just happened to wander into the room.

If memory serves, sandal wasn't doing so hot in combat when I saved his retarded butt outside lothering.

[Herr Uhl]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Bhaaa, dwarves are the rednecks of ferelden, who's only saving grace is their ability to cut rock and mine an addictive substance.

No, just no.

Dwarves are constantly harrased by the darkspawn because the gods hate them. The gods hate them because the dwarves don't acknowledge their existence, but instead worship dead ancestors who are powerless.

Good for you that you think so. Is that also why the Qunari have no blights at all?

We don't know sandal killed those darkspawn, we only know he's there. For all we know the guards put up a hell of a fight and sandal just happened to wander into the room.
If memory serves, sandal wasn't doing so hot in combat when I saved his retarded butt outside lothering.

So a 15 year old (my presumed age on him, same as Dagna in the toolset), lyrium addled boy didn't do great in combat, this proves what exactly? And they weren't getting killed either, you just happened to intervene so that he had to hide his powers.