126 réponses à ce sujet

[Mirthadrond]

Simply look up the definition of the word "honor"; play the game, and clearly you will see, dwarves do not fit the definition.

Terms like 'trustworthy, honest, integrity" don't fit. It's just that simple.

From castless, to noble - the word doesn't fit.

The very first scene when you enter their city makes this painfully obvious to one poor sod.

Bhelins man murders a guard for doing his job.

A scholar is murdered (can be prevented if the player wants) for doing his job.

Combatants can be poisoned (as per carta orders) in the proving.



I mean, the list goes on and on. If we change the meaning of the word 'honor' then sure it fits.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Costin_Razvan]

And elves have honor huh? You mean the sneaking bastards who launch bandit attacks on people?

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And elves have honor huh? You mean the sneaking bastards who launch bandit attacks on people?

And seem to have little trouble with killing people who happen to stumble into them, and then proceed to tell you boring stories in a snobbish fashion. The gall of it all.

[Caldarin V]

The Dwarves have honor in the same sense that Roman politicians had honor

and besides, look at the legion of the dead, a group of people who give up everything for to defend their homeland and restore honor to their name



that guy's hatred of dwarves seems irrational

I'd say like my dislike of Cammen, but that's perfectly rational...

[Costin_Razvan]

I wonder if there a way to somehow switch the models of certain NPCs in the game that get killed, to that of Cammen.



I would sure as hell make a youtube clip with all their deaths!

[C9316]

The dwarfs are so stupid especially during a blight!!! and that damn assembly "hey instead of putting aside or petty differances and working together to protect ourselves from the darkspawn lets continue killing each other just so we can decide which family is the best damn family ever!!" I mean its like freaking highschool only with killing.....more killing than usual lol

[Oogrooq]

I'm racist against dwarves. I hate them so much.

[nikki191]

considering they are a people that fight the darkspawn and each other almost constantly would you really want to ****** them off?



go ahead make my archdemon slaying dual wielding dwarf rogues day

[Herr Uhl]

C9316 wrote...

The dwarfs are so stupid especially during a blight!!! and that damn assembly "hey instead of putting aside or petty differances and working together to protect ourselves from the darkspawn lets continue killing each other just so we can decide which family is the best damn family ever!!" I mean its like freaking highschool only with killing.....more killing than usual lol

And the humans are any better?

Loghain: Let's stand united against the darkspawn!
Teagan: Hell no, lets divide our forces and fight each other instead.

[MutantSpleen]

Its true the stuff going on in Orzammar parallels what is happening on the surface. Humans are no better during the Blight.

[C9316]

Herr Uhl wrote...

C9316 wrote...

The dwarfs are so stupid especially during a blight!!! and that damn assembly "hey instead of putting aside or petty differances and working together to protect ourselves from the darkspawn lets continue killing each other just so we can decide which family is the best damn family ever!!" I mean its like freaking highschool only with killing.....more killing than usual lol

And the humans are any better?

Loghain: Let's stand united against the darkspawn!
Teagan: Hell no, lets divide our forces and fight each other instead.

I agree I should have said that their constant and petty infighting is their everyday and its gets so barbaric that these families starting killing each other and brawling in the streets! completly ignoring that each day a dwarven life is lost and that the darkspawn are important and the caste system really? they must be plain stupid

[Herr Uhl]

C9316 wrote...

I agree I should have said that their constant and petty infighting is their everyday and its gets so barbaric that these families starting killing each other and brawling in the streets! completly ignoring that each day a dwarven life is lost and that the darkspawn are important and the caste system really? they must be plain stupid

I still think starting a civil war is more stupid than having a handful of dwarves fighting in the streets. It's not the army that fights itself, it's the nobles.

[soignee]

nikki191 wrote...

considering they are a people that fight the darkspawn and each other almost constantly would you really want to ****** them off?

go ahead make my archdemon slaying dual wielding dwarf rogues day

This. 

[SLPr0]

Dwarves are handy, good craftsmen, extremely competent warriors and they are, to be honest, archetypal and 'expected'.

This means the dwarves we are presented with in DA:O fit our own preconcieved notions of dwarves, good craftsmen, good warriors, like to drink alot...and beards, lets not forget that.

Dwarves in DA:O reflect all modern accepted "lore" of what a dwarf is, in fantasy lore, from LoTR to Discworld(Except female dwarves in Thedas don't have beards and thus apparently the courtship rituals are far less complex.)

The racism towards the elves in the game itself has absolutely nothing on the backlash towards the elves from the player base. The elves of DA:O are nothing short of insulting to all the "accepted" lore of elves from, once again, LoTR to Discworld....even Discworld elves are "cooler" than DA:O elves.

DA:O elves came out of the box not only being treated like a degraded people, but looking and feeling like a sub-human race as well. Given their presentation in DA:O I find it hard to believe Maric didn't bed just one, but two elves over his life time because good gods female elves are ugly. Katriel and Fiona must have been exquisite examples of their species cause I'm totally headmorph competent and making a female elf look anything near to attractive is impossible using base headmorphs (Thus Velanna requiring HEAVY modification to stop being such a goddamn eyesore).

Simple facts are, no one hates dwarfs cause dwarfs are what we expected, everyone, in DA:O and the players of it, hate elves....because they're so horribly represented...and because, of course, of Cammen...who represents everything that is horrible about the elves of Thedas.

EDIT TO ADD: DA:O is the only game in the history of all fantasy RPGs that if I had been presented with the options of a dwarf and a elf love interest, and those were my only options? I'd have bedded the dwarf. Call me a pig if you like, but, seriously....if the Pearl was nothing but Elves or Dwarves I'd be banging midgets every time.

Modifié par SLPr0, 14 avril 2010 - 04:15 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Herr Uhl wrote...

And the humans are any better?

Loghain: Let's stand united against the darkspawn!
Teagan: Hell no, lets divide our forces and fight each other instead.

Let's not forget the mages.

Uldred: I suggest joining Loghain to combat the Blight, he will give us freedom from the Chantry
Wynne: What? We shall never be free, besides Loghain is an evil man who killed our king!

 DA:O is the only game in the history of all fantasy RPGs that if I had been presented with the options of a dwarf and a elf love interest, and those were my only options? I'd have bedded the dwarf. Call me a pig if you like, but, seriously....if the Pearl was nothing but Elves or Dwarves I've be banging midgets every time.

I keep telling them. No one can resist the dwarf.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 avril 2010 - 04:15 .

[SirOccam]

"Dwarves are dishonorable!"
"Nuh uh, they're honorable, and elves are dishonorable!"
"They're no worse than humans!"

So maybe the lesson we can take away from this is that you can't responsibly paint an entire race/culture as one thing or another based on the actions of a few?

"The Dwarves" are neither honorable nor dishonorable. Same goes for Elves and Humans (and Mages if you want to count them as a separate culture). Some individuals within those cultures are honorable, and some are dishonorable.

Huh, who'd have thought that stereotypes and prejudice were bad? Shocking.

[MutantSpleen]

SLPr0 wrote...

Dwarves are handy, good craftsmen, extremely competent warriors and they are, to be honest, archetypal and 'expected'.

This means the dwarves we are presented with in DA:O fit our own preconcieved notions of dwarves, good craftsmen, good warriors, like to drink alot...and beards, lets not forget that.

Dwarves in DA:O reflect all modern accepted "lore" of what a dwarf is, in fantasy lore, from LoTR to Discworld(Except female dwarves in Thedas don't have beards and thus apparently the courtship rituals are far less complex.)

The racism towards the elves in the game itself has absolutely nothing on the backlash towards the elves from the player base. The elves of DA:O are nothing short of insulting to all the "accepted" lore of elves from, once again, LoTR to Discworld....even Discworld elves are "cooler" than DA:O elves.

DA:O elves came out of the box not only being treated like a degraded people, but looking and feeling like a sub-human race as well. Given their presentation in DA:O I find it hard to believe Maric didn't bed just one, but two elves over his life time because good gods female elves are ugly. Katriel and Fiona must have been exquisite examples of their species cause I'm totally headmorph competent and making a female elf look anything near to attractive is impossible using base headmorphs (Thus Velanna requiring HEAVY modification to stop being such a goddamn eyesore).

Simple facts are, no one hates dwarfs cause dwarfs are what we expected, everyone, in DA:O and the players of it, hate elves....because they're so horribly represented...and because, of course, of Cammen...who represents everything that is horrible about the elves of Thedas.

EDIT TO ADD: DA:O is the only game in the history of all fantasy RPGs that if I had been presented with the options of a dwarf and a elf love interest, and those were my only options? I'd have bedded the dwarf. Call me a pig if you like, but, seriously....if the Pearl was nothing but Elves or Dwarves I'd be banging midgets every time.

Elves aren't supposed to be ugly, the lore in the game constantly says that everyone considers elves beautiful.  Bioware had to just use some horrid random generation on about 95% of the games faces. You can actually make a very very attractive elf in the toolset.  The Lore in the game though states they are beautiful. I found the the disparity between the lore and in game art cringe worthy so I got a mod that prettied up all the elves.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 14 avril 2010 - 04:40 .

[SLPr0]

MutantSpleen wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...

Dwarves are handy, good craftsmen, extremely competent warriors and they are, to be honest, archetypal and 'expected'.

This means the dwarves we are presented with in DA:O fit our own preconcieved notions of dwarves, good craftsmen, good warriors, like to drink alot...and beards, lets not forget that.

Dwarves in DA:O reflect all modern accepted "lore" of what a dwarf is, in fantasy lore, from LoTR to Discworld(Except female dwarves in Thedas don't have beards and thus apparently the courtship rituals are far less complex.)

The racism towards the elves in the game itself has absolutely nothing on the backlash towards the elves from the player base. The elves of DA:O are nothing short of insulting to all the "accepted" lore of elves from, once again, LoTR to Discworld....even Discworld elves are "cooler" than DA:O elves.

DA:O elves came out of the box not only being treated like a degraded people, but looking and feeling like a sub-human race as well. Given their presentation in DA:O I find it hard to believe Maric didn't bed just one, but two elves over his life time because good gods female elves are ugly. Katriel and Fiona must have been exquisite examples of their species cause I'm totally headmorph competent and making a female elf look anything near to attractive is impossible using base headmorphs (Thus Velanna requiring HEAVY modification to stop being such a goddamn eyesore).

Simple facts are, no one hates dwarfs cause dwarfs are what we expected, everyone, in DA:O and the players of it, hate elves....because they're so horribly represented...and because, of course, of Cammen...who represents everything that is horrible about the elves of Thedas.

EDIT TO ADD: DA:O is the only game in the history of all fantasy RPGs that if I had been presented with the options of a dwarf and a elf love interest, and those were my only options? I'd have bedded the dwarf. Call me a pig if you like, but, seriously....if the Pearl was nothing but Elves or Dwarves I'd be banging midgets every time.

Elves aren't supposed to be ugly, the lore in the game constanly says that everyone considers elves beautiful.  Bioware had to just use some horrid random generation on about 95% of the games faces. You can actually make a very very attractive elf in the toolset.  The Lore in the game though states they are beautiful. I found the the disparity between the lore and in game art cringe worthy so I got a mod that prettied up all the elves.

I'm using the Petite Elf override settings from NBAIO and Muscular Elf for males. The unfortunate state of affairs though is they're still, for all intents and purposes it makes no difference since it doesn't affect the body mesh while wearing armor and they are really....Everquest Wood Elves by nearest comparative design. I've looked all over for mods that make elves more attractive and Dragon Age Redesigned/Improved Atmosphere really go about as far as you can go without breaking the lore entirely and rebuilding the Elven body mesh to be closer to a "High" elf than a "Wood" elf.

Dalish elves are "Wood" elves, I get that, but the fact that they almost, and quite literally are nailed to the description of "Wood" elf down to the screws and bolts putting them together, not just from say....Everquest but even before that in their racial representations in Dungeons and Dragons and Greyhawk...is just grah...annnoying.

When I met Cammen I knew I had found the apex of elven uselessness in DA:O, the true "ambassador" of all things "elvish", ugly, whiney, incompetent.....I shed no tears when I went and banged Gheyna out of spite just to hurt him...and I'm not a cruel person by nature (and, I did, in fact, in my head, insist on Gheyna being face down in the pillow cause theres no way I'd have wanted to look at that even while expressing my hatred for Cammen and all things DA:O elven upon her).

The Dalish are the only race I have no issue betraying in favor of their opposite number. I will not let Branka have the Anvil, I won't enact the Rite of Annulment on the Tower and I absolutely refuse to descrate the Urn of Sacred Ashes...but when it comes to the Dalish..and the elves in DA:O in general, I hate them, they disgust my inner fantasy nerd, and at the end of the game in Denerim I have no problem letting the Tervinter mage increase my power by taking the lives of all the elves in the cages either.

I'm not racist towards elves, I'm racist towards "these" Elves. Frankly I wish the Qunari would come eat them all.

EDIT TO ADD: And I agree the lore, all over the place points at the human fascination with Elven "beauty" and I'm just like.....where? Where are all these beautiful elves? I'm pretty much a heterosexual male and given the best examples of elven "beauty" in DA:O, I'd bed Zevran before I'd bed Iona. Thats pretty damn sad...when Zevran is actually more attractive to a heterosexual male than female counterparts of his race.

Modifié par SLPr0, 14 avril 2010 - 04:50 .

[C9316]

Herr Uhl wrote...

C9316 wrote...

I agree I should have said that their constant and petty infighting is their everyday and its gets so barbaric that these families starting killing each other and brawling in the streets! completly ignoring that each day a dwarven life is lost and that the darkspawn are important and the caste system really? they must be plain stupid

I still think starting a civil war is more stupid than having a handful of dwarves fighting in the streets. It's not the army that fights itself, it's the nobles.

Well you ae entitled to your opinion but I think a bunch of wimpy nobles(even nobles of the same families) who barbarically kill each other while darkspawn claw at their land are even stupider

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

C9316 wrote...

The dwarfs are so stupid especially during a blight!!! and that damn assembly "hey instead of putting aside or petty differances and working together to protect ourselves from the darkspawn lets continue killing each other just so we can decide which family is the best damn family ever!!" I mean its like freaking highschool only with killing.....more killing than usual lol

And the humans are any better?

Loghain: Let's stand united against the darkspawn!
Teagan: Hell no, lets divide our forces and fight each other instead.

Or:
Warden: So now that the darkspawn have taken the South and you can't deny it's a Blight anymore, why not stand with us and we can do the political posturing once we know we're not all going to die? Because you know, if we do that and Alistair dies Anora pretty much gets the throne.
Loghain: I will not listen to these Orlesian lies!

I can't really blame people for being slow to believe there's a Blight but Loghain/Eamon's refusal to deal with politics later after everyone knew the Blight was there is just stupid.

On the dwarven side of things, they weren't sure it was a Blight because their only indication is a lessening of darkspawn presence which is a good thing - temporarily - for them and Bhelen and Harrowmont were the two who drove the city into chaos. If either one had just accepted the other's rule - as disastrous as they felt it would be - then they could have stood against the Blight a lot sooner.

[Caldarin V]

SLPr0 wrote...

Dwarves are handy, good craftsmen, extremely competent warriors and they are, to be honest, archetypal and 'expected'.

This means the dwarves we are presented with in DA:O fit our own preconcieved notions of dwarves, good craftsmen, good warriors, like to drink alot...and beards, lets not forget that.

Dwarves in DA:O reflect all modern accepted "lore" of what a dwarf is, in fantasy lore, from LoTR to Discworld(Except female dwarves in Thedas don't have beards and thus apparently the courtship rituals are far less complex.)

The racism towards the elves in the game itself has absolutely nothing on the backlash towards the elves from the player base. The elves of DA:O are nothing short of insulting to all the "accepted" lore of elves from, once again, LoTR to Discworld....even Discworld elves are "cooler" than DA:O elves.

DA:O elves came out of the box not only being treated like a degraded people, but looking and feeling like a sub-human race as well. Given their presentation in DA:O I find it hard to believe Maric didn't bed just one, but two elves over his life time because good gods female elves are ugly. Katriel and Fiona must have been exquisite examples of their species cause I'm totally headmorph competent and making a female elf look anything near to attractive is impossible using base headmorphs (Thus Velanna requiring HEAVY modification to stop being such a goddamn eyesore).

Simple facts are, no one hates dwarfs cause dwarfs are what we expected, everyone, in DA:O and the players of it, hate elves....because they're so horribly represented...and because, of course, of Cammen...who represents everything that is horrible about the elves of Thedas.

EDIT TO ADD: DA:O is the only game in the history of all fantasy RPGs that if I had been presented with the options of a dwarf and a elf love interest, and those were my only options? I'd have bedded the dwarf. Call me a pig if you like, but, seriously....if the Pearl was nothing but Elves or Dwarves I'd be banging midgets every time.

Actually, my favorite part about the dwarves was that while they were the archetypal craftsmen et all, they also have a fun and complex political system. Archetypal dwarves would be a strictly hereditary king, with everybody being completely loyal to that royal family no matter what
what we have instead are political animals and a society (and I know I'm beating this to death) that reminds me of Rome so much

[SLPr0]

Caldarin V wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...

Dwarves are handy, good craftsmen, extremely competent warriors and they are, to be honest, archetypal and 'expected'.

This means the dwarves we are presented with in DA:O fit our own preconcieved notions of dwarves, good craftsmen, good warriors, like to drink alot...and beards, lets not forget that.

Dwarves in DA:O reflect all modern accepted "lore" of what a dwarf is, in fantasy lore, from LoTR to Discworld(Except female dwarves in Thedas don't have beards and thus apparently the courtship rituals are far less complex.)

The racism towards the elves in the game itself has absolutely nothing on the backlash towards the elves from the player base. The elves of DA:O are nothing short of insulting to all the "accepted" lore of elves from, once again, LoTR to Discworld....even Discworld elves are "cooler" than DA:O elves.

DA:O elves came out of the box not only being treated like a degraded people, but looking and feeling like a sub-human race as well. Given their presentation in DA:O I find it hard to believe Maric didn't bed just one, but two elves over his life time because good gods female elves are ugly. Katriel and Fiona must have been exquisite examples of their species cause I'm totally headmorph competent and making a female elf look anything near to attractive is impossible using base headmorphs (Thus Velanna requiring HEAVY modification to stop being such a goddamn eyesore).

Simple facts are, no one hates dwarfs cause dwarfs are what we expected, everyone, in DA:O and the players of it, hate elves....because they're so horribly represented...and because, of course, of Cammen...who represents everything that is horrible about the elves of Thedas.

EDIT TO ADD: DA:O is the only game in the history of all fantasy RPGs that if I had been presented with the options of a dwarf and a elf love interest, and those were my only options? I'd have bedded the dwarf. Call me a pig if you like, but, seriously....if the Pearl was nothing but Elves or Dwarves I'd be banging midgets every time.

Actually, my favorite part about the dwarves was that while they were the archetypal craftsmen et all, they also have a fun and complex political system. Archetypal dwarves would be a strictly hereditary king, with everybody being completely loyal to that royal family no matter what
what we have instead are political animals and a society (and I know I'm beating this to death) that reminds me of Rome so much

I agree with this, the cut-throat politics of Orzammar were an interesting addition to the archetypal "dwarf" expectations that really, in my mind, gave them a malty depth of character that was a well thought out addition to the traditional dwarven mythology. It really, made the dwarves of Thedas extremely interesting, though their politics and focus on houses of nobility and what not are not so dissimilar from LoTR Dwarves, who have long familial histories and political clans as well though you do not get this impression from The Hobbit and the LoTR Trilogy, you have to delve further back into Middle Earth and read the Silmarillion to truly see it, so its possible that the application of it in Orzammar was a reflection of the Silmarilionic lore on dwarves to some degree. But in general presentation (given that reading is such a nerdy habit these days) most people would not make that connection so the Orzammar political scenario is, in fact, a seemingly new layer to a known lore quanitity that gave it far more depth and made it even more interesting. The caste systems as well, another layer which did much the same.

For everything they gave to the Dwarves, they took so much away from the Elves in DA:O, the Dalish are little more than semi-civilized savages barely attempting to retain the lore of a civilization lost thousands of years in the past. Post nuclear wasteland wanderers, the last, inconvenient vestiges of a civilization long dead and gone living on in the "modern" Thedas as second class citizens and largely embracing that role. So the dwarves got several extra helpings of "meat" on the sandwich that was the definition of their culture, and the elves, are like dry bread and not enough butter, in the same regard.

Modifié par SLPr0, 14 avril 2010 - 07:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Its true the stuff going on in Orzammar parallels what is happening on the surface. Humans are no better during the Blight.

Sentience in general is way too overrated imo.  

Humans to the elves: "fight the blight with us! please!"
Elves: "Nope. We actually think that we can defend ourselves on our own if the Blight manages to annihilate you"

[Mlai00]

SLPr0 wrote...
And I agree the lore, all over the place points at the human fascination with Elven "beauty" and I'm just like.....where? Where are all these beautiful elves?

Zevran, by Ymladdych:


Alleria and Aarya, by Viruscat:



Divinity, by Spectre Piatch:


Sinia Tabris, by Presence:


Raizo, by Darth Mael:


Yorda, by meeeeeeeeeeee :

Modifié par Mlai00, 17 avril 2010 - 02:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

They just look like pretty humans with unnatural ears.