194 réponses à ce sujet

[aliastasia]

Sylvanaerie - sorry for late reply, but thanks for clarifying :-)



CalJones - surely that's based on what kind of gigs you're recruiting for, and also the type of corporate culture you're recruiting to or from?



I work in SWE as a consultant, have done so for over 10 yrs, and as far as I know, neither me or my fellow female project managers base our acceptance or decline of a gig on how we *feel* about it, we base it on pay, duration, field of expertise and to an extent prestige.

To us, and I think also for many other women, persuasion based on logic works as well here as on men. In Northern Europe, in any case.

(And do we now open up for a debate on nature vs nurture? ;-) )



/A

[sylvanaerie]

Actually whether Anora or Alistair (hardened) solo leading which being better than the other is a matter of what the one lacks the other has. Anora DOES do some good but her blindside seems to be she lacks "The human face" to the crown. In her epilogue there is a food riot in the alienage leading to death and I see this as part her not able to deal with the little people and part she really didn't care (as evidenced by things seen in the CE Origin story she never cared).
There isn't such a bloodbath in Alistair's epilogue. He goes out drinking in the taverns and meeting the people which makes him popular but it doesn't say anything about any of the governance stuff except to say "he learned it" which I am assuming means that with help he could pick up the slack in his rulership skills. In this he exceeds Anora. While it doesn't say he he married and produced an heir (I think Bioward is setting us up to something with that) Anora's says she flat out refuses to take a husband and produce an heir (A queen's duty is one for the throne and one to spare). Keep in mind this is SOLO ruling not with a HN PC or married to each other.

Alistair seems more like someone willing to learn and do his duty to the country. Anora comes off more powerhungry and doing it just so she can keep the throne. And like her father she has this "I'm right and you're wrong so get out of my way, fool" attitude even when faced with the facts so she lacks the inclination to change her position.

Certainly Alistair plus Anora is best for Ferelden even if it sucks for them on a personal level but kings and queens don't have the luxury of marrying who they love. 

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 10 avril 2010 - 12:34 .

[CalJones]

I recruit within the game industry, primarily permanent roles, and international, so relocation is usually involved. Most times a placement does not work out it's because his wife or girlfriend digs her heels in and won't move. Which is her right of course, but very tiresome if the guy is keen on the job. Anyway, my slightly tongue-in-cheek point was that it's pretty much impossible to get a woman to change her mind once she has made a decision, so arguing with a rabid Alistair fan is completely pointless.



For the record, I am female.

[CalJones]

Re: Anora and the CE story - we don't know that she or Cailan is even aware of what Vaughan gets up to. If I were Arl Urien, I'd be keeing that dirty little family secret very quiet. So I don't think we can blame her for that (any more than we can blame Cailan - it's just as much his responsibility as king).

Granted, she is less caring of the elves in the epilogue - I won't argue against that. I've not seen the solo Alistair epilogue so I can't comment on that. I prefer to marry them, or marry her to my Cousland.

[sylvanaerie]

CalJones wrote...

Re: Anora and the CE story - we don't know that she or Cailan is even aware of what Vaughan gets up to. If I were Arl Urien, I'd be keeing that dirty little family secret very quiet. So I don't think we can blame her for that (any more than we can blame Cailan - it's just as much his responsibility as king).
Granted, she is less caring of the elves in the epilogue - I won't argue against that. I've not seen the solo Alistair epilogue so I can't comment on that. I prefer to marry them, or marry her to my Cousland.

For the elves Alistair posts the hahren to his council much to the dismay of the nobles and in time Shianni eventually serves as elder to her people, her fiery temper serving them well (Paraphrased mostly but that's the gist of it).

I think its more a matter of Anora just turns a blind eye to the situation (her failing being she lacks a common touch).  Certainly Urien probably kept that dirty secret but the conditions in the Alienage are deplorable irregardless.  Anora only mentions something about the situation when it can be used to her advantage and stop her father.  And Cailan...pure rubbish. He was a child/king with stars and legends in his eyes.  Likeable like a puppy but overall rubbish as a king.

[CalJones]

I won't disagree that he's a crap king - just saying it's his responsibility as much as hers. We don't know that conditions were any better under Maric, either. The elves get a raw deal in most places, regardless.

[Stalky24]

Well problem with Alistair as a king is that little taint of his.

He dies soon, he cant have babies.

...

What pissed me off was when I had him in party all the time, we were good friends, I picked him as a king and at the start of Awakening? "Hello, Commander" like we met first time...

[sylvanaerie]

CalJones wrote...

I won't disagree that he's a crap king - just saying it's his responsibility as much as hers. We don't know that conditions were any better under Maric, either. The elves get a raw deal in most places, regardless.

ah but where it differs is Anora rather proudly points out she has been ruling the country for the past five years not Cailan.  I think had she allowed him some leeway he could have used his common touch to soften her ruling some and actually done some good for people.  She just seems the type of person who has this "I'm right you are wrong, get out of my face" way of doing things. 
Cailan seems like an unhardened Alistair to me, like he would let her push him around where hardened Al wouldn't allow it (and Al/Anora do very well ruling together, her governance skills balancing his common man touch very nicely).  But then Cailan also strikes me as having been very sheltered too.  He seemed genuinely shocked when my PC rather gleefully informed him she had killed an Arl's son for raping a woman.  (A genuinely funny WTF moment for him).
Of course conditions there began more than 5 years ago but considering all the crap in their lives, Vaughan is the least of their worries and plague, starvation, poverty and racism is rampant in the Alienage its part and parcel of the CE origin.  The slavery and the slaughter of Howe's purge only adds to the problem.  All done while Anora was at the helm.  I think she was aware just turned a blind eye to what was going on since she does bring up the unrest in the Alienage at Eamon's estate.

[aliastasia]

I recruit within the game industry, primarily permanent roles, and international, so relocation is usually involved.

Fair enough, point taken (and I also read EA Wife's blog way back when). As for the Alistair context - wasn't going to argue that

When it comes to storyline and Anora, what I don't get, is why, as part of the story, Anora didn't at once either GET pregnant, claiming it to be Cailan's or faked a pregnancy to buy time and the throne - it would have given (ok, even) more endgame options and politics. I mean, there have been suspiciously many convenient pregnancies through the ages to ensure someone kept a throne or a regency? 

Anyway - also offering some humble fanart to console all of us who fell for that horrid puppy's lines... and lamppost licking. 

/A

Modifié par aliastasia, 10 avril 2010 - 01:53 .

[Xandurpein]

I think neither Anora nor Cailan, nor the majority of all humans looked to closely at the alienage situation. They just assumed that the situation while vaguely regrettable where just the way things are. I'm sure that rulers of Fereldan over the years may have made one or two half hearted and misguided attempts to improve matters that backfired and given up. That doesn't necessarily make them evil, just misguided and children of their time.

I belive the fact that Anora brings up the alienage at Eamons estate is more to do with the fact that the alienage is suddenly totally shut down and quaratined due the mysterious plague. That is not just ordinary squallor it is something suspicious.

Let me also point out that there is really no evidence at all that Alistair as solo King treats the elves better than Anora. All we know is that there is no uprising he has to put down. For all we know Alistair may be treating the elves the same as Anora, except that he is charming and popular so they let him get away with it, while Anora don't have Alistairs charm. There is simply no proof either way.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 avril 2010 - 01:57 .

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think neither Anora nor Cailan, nor the majority of all humans looked to closely at the alienage situation. They just assumed that the situation while vaguely regrettable where just the way things are. I'm sure that rulers of Fereldan over the years may have made one or two half hearted and misguided attempts to improve matters that backfired and given up. That doesn't necessarily make them evil, just misguided and children of their time.

I belive the fact that Anora brings up the alienage at Eamons estate is more to do with the fact that the alienage is suddenly totally shut down and quaratined due the mysterious plague. That is not just ordinary squallor it is something suspicious.

Let me also point out that there is really no evidence at all that Alistair as solo King treats the elves better than Anora. All we know is that there is no uprising he has to put down. For all we know Alistair may be treating the elves the same as Anora, except that he is charming and popular so they let him get away with it, while Anora don't have Alistairs charm. There is simply no proof either way.

It says in his epilogue that he does (he appoints their elder to his council).  Quite different from solo Anora who's ruling style starts a food riot in the Alienage.

[Xandurpein]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I think neither Anora nor Cailan, nor the majority of all humans looked to closely at the alienage situation. They just assumed that the situation while vaguely regrettable where just the way things are. I'm sure that rulers of Fereldan over the years may have made one or two half hearted and misguided attempts to improve matters that backfired and given up. That doesn't necessarily make them evil, just misguided and children of their time.

I belive the fact that Anora brings up the alienage at Eamons estate is more to do with the fact that the alienage is suddenly totally shut down and quaratined due the mysterious plague. That is not just ordinary squallor it is something suspicious.

Let me also point out that there is really no evidence at all that Alistair as solo King treats the elves better than Anora. All we know is that there is no uprising he has to put down. For all we know Alistair may be treating the elves the same as Anora, except that he is charming and popular so they let him get away with it, while Anora don't have Alistairs charm. There is simply no proof either way.

It says in his epilogue that he does (he appoints their elder to his council).  Quite different from solo Anora who's ruling style starts a food riot in the Alienage.

Which indicates that he charms and communicates better, it is in itself no proof that Alistair also actually improve the situation for the elves. Merely that he listens to them. We don't know if the elves riot because they are treated worse or for psychological reasons. I'm inclined to believe Alistair may indeed not just listen but perhaps do something, maybe at least temporary food distribution during the worst famine or something, but we have no proof.

[sylvanaerie]

You miss my point. My point being Anora's lack of the common touch leads to the situation getting volatile and turning into a blood bath. They riot because of a food shortage in the Alienage. Leading me to assume

1. Anora didn't care to distribute food to them during famine/hard times, always a problem after war

2. Wouldn't listen to any complaints of 'hey we are starving here'



All this part and parcel of her ruling style of "I'm right, you're wrong, get out of my way, fool".



Alistair's epilogue lacks this same food riot thing leading one to assume he attended to the problems by actually listening to the Hahren when he advised Alistair on any famine situation (assuming the same thing comes up in both epilogues).



Plus Alistair is well aware of his duty to the throne in regards to an heir, it even prompts the situation this thread was started to discuss. While his epilogue doesnt' say he marries and gets an heir its implied he will be looking if he is sole ruler. Anora's actually points out that she flat out refuses due to her hero worship of Loghain to marry again.



My point is Alistair (hardened) solo is more aware of his duty to the throne and the people than Anora solo is.



Neither is perfect but his seems to have less hardship attached to his epilogue because he can deal with people better than she can.

[Xandurpein]

I agree that there seems to be less hardship attached to Alistair's ruling. Just as there seems to be more progress attached to Anora's ruling, with the building of a University. Which brings me back to my original point. Which is best? Progress or avoiding hardship? I may have my own idea, but it's just my opinion. It all comes down to your opinion.

[Xandurpein]

The dilemma with the Alienage after the war is in many ways mirrored in the choices the player has to make in Awakening. This time the limited resource is the available number of guards. What do the Warden Commander choose? Protect the lives of the farmers or protect the economy? Is everyone who opted to protect trade and long term stability of the economy evil cold hearted bastards? Even the Warden commander gets his own food riots, and even if it may be inspired by the conspirators I'm sure it had some real roots too, or people wouldn't have been so easily roused.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 avril 2010 - 02:52 .

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

I agree that there seems to be less hardship attached to Alistair's ruling. Just as there seems to be more progress attached to Anora's ruling, with the building of a University. Which brings me back to my original point. Which is best? Progress or avoiding hardship? I may have my own idea, but it's just my opinion. It all comes down to your opinion.

Well I did say in a post above that she does do some good in her rule (and certainly Anora/Alistair paired do a LOT of good for Ferelden) but I am gonna have to side with Alistair on the "did better" point since no one actually DIES in his epilogue.  Can you seriously argue that building a University is more important than the lives she cost? 
And I do say neither alone is perfect. Each has skills the other lacks which leads to the most optimum pairing of the two of them to rule being the best solution for Ferelden as it not only stops the civil war by joining both sides but their strengths/weaknesses balance out and allows for the "happiest" ending for Ferelden. 
On a personal level though I know it sucks since neither wants to be married to the other.

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

The dilemma with the Alienage after the war is in many ways mirrored in the choices the player has to make in Awakening. This time the limited resource is the available number of guards. What do the Warden Commander choose? Protect the lives of the farmers or protect the economy? Is everyone who opted to protect trade and long term stability of the economy evil cold hearted bastards? Even the Warden commander gets his own food riots, and even if it may be inspired by the conspirators I'm sure it had some real roots too, or people wouldn't have been so easily roused.

I agree.  I loved Awakenings political aspects and it gives you an idea of how hard it is to rule a country. Holding court and dealing with the politics was a lot more fun to me than the actual quests.

[Dragonairess]

So two days later...



I've picked up the broken pieces of my life and have decided to load the game before Landsmeet and try again.



What really honks me off is that while basking in the arrogant glory of being given the ultimate decision of who will rule, the softer, less presumptious side of my PC worked her way in there and didn't impose a co-ruling mandate. In other words, "Yeah, Alistair is King," but then my PC gets the shaft and no matter what she says his mind is set towards finding a fertile wife. Maybe this is gaming imitating life, but there really is no way to argue your way our of being dumped. As the savior of Ferelden, my PC is compelled to have some semblance of pride, though the sting of Alistair's rudeness isn't lessened.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yes, the lot of the elves seems much better under Alistair. They get positions on hsi council and their voices are heard. Anora, it's business as usual.



Anora is the quintessential politician, so she succeeds in administration and physical improvements, such as negotiating trade and building a university, increasing Ferelden's prestige. Alistair succeeds better at tending to the wounded mind and soul of the nation, and is better at dealing with social problems and injustices. If they rule jointly, you get a golden age where Ferelden sees everything improve on all fronts.



However, since I'm yet to play a character with much concern for the greater good of Ferelden, the only time I have them marry and rule jointly is when I'm playing a sadistic character who wishes to make Alistair as miserable as possible. Most of the time, I just let Anora rule on her own. Seems the best from a personal happieness perspective. Even hardened, I never really felt that Alistair was especially keen on kingship. He's just more willing to make it work on his terms, and not let anyone push him around.



The one time I did make Alistair king, it was solo. I felt if nothing else, he should be able to pick his spouse, not have it chosen for him, like everything else in his life was.

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...

I agree that there seems to be less hardship attached to Alistair's ruling. Just as there seems to be more progress attached to Anora's ruling, with the building of a University. Which brings me back to my original point. Which is best? Progress or avoiding hardship? I may have my own idea, but it's just my opinion. It all comes down to your opinion.

I think part of this discrepancy has to do with the fact that Anora's epilogues feel more long-term than Alistair's. We know that Anora's involves the passage of years, which leaves her open to higher highs (University) and lower lows (Alienage riots), but I don't think there's specificity about Alistair besides studying governance, sneaking into pubs and naming Valendrian to his council. All of which could be within a few months of his coronation.

So I say that hardened Alistair seems like a better ruler than solo Anora, but that could just be because, due to Alistair maybe still playing a part in story that could take him several different places, we aren't given as much information on his long-term performance as king. With that in mind, a direct comparison might not be very accurate.

Does that make any sense at all?  

The one time I did make Alistair king, it was solo. I felt if nothing else, he should be able to pick his spouse, not have it chosen for him, like everything else in his life was.

This. What does it say about me that I won't let my boyfriend saddle him with Anora in his games? I did it once and felt horrible, despite the fact they were good for Ferelden and Alistair still had my PC. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 avril 2010 - 03:05 .

[sylvanaerie]

Dragonairess wrote...

So two days later...

I've picked up the broken pieces of my life and have decided to load the game before Landsmeet and try again.

What really honks me off is that while basking in the arrogant glory of being given the ultimate decision of who will rule, the softer, less presumptious side of my PC worked her way in there and didn't impose a co-ruling mandate. In other words, "Yeah, Alistair is King," but then my PC gets the shaft and no matter what she says his mind is set towards finding a fertile wife. Maybe this is gaming imitating life, but there really is no way to argue your way our of being dumped. As the savior of Ferelden, my PC is compelled to have some semblance of pride, though the sting of Alistair's rudeness isn't lessened.

*Virtual Hugs*

Buck up Dragon.  That's what reloads are for

@Surelyforth

That certainly seems a reasonable supposition indeed. Thanks for allowing me to see a different aspect of the situation!

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 10 avril 2010 - 03:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
 Can you seriously argue that building a University is more important than the lives she cost? 

I can argue that. Progress has always cost lives. In every civilisation. But it ends up benefitting the whole nation for both the short and long term.

You speak as If Anora took on a mass murder policy. She just crushed a food riot. That's it. I can't see the casualties to surpass a couple of hundreds. And even that is stretching it. And let's be honest here, the elves are mostly irrelevent to the general wellfare of Ferelden. 

Anora is tackling the roots of Ferelden's weakness and that's ignorance and barbarism. A university would help Ferelden become a leading nation, instead of remaining a backward one. Alistair is just tackling the symptoms. If Ferelden remains the way it is, more food riots will take place and lives will have to be taken anyhow. 

Clearly the best outcome is the PC ruling with Anora. It is described as a Golden Age, if they don't fight.
    

[SurelyForth]

Dragonairess wrote...

So two days later...

I've picked up the broken pieces of my life and have decided to load the game before Landsmeet and try again.

What really honks me off is that while basking in the arrogant glory of being given the ultimate decision of who will rule, the softer, less presumptious side of my PC worked her way in there and didn't impose a co-ruling mandate. In other words, "Yeah, Alistair is King," but then my PC gets the shaft and no matter what she says his mind is set towards finding a fertile wife. Maybe this is gaming imitating life, but there really is no way to argue your way our of being dumped. As the savior of Ferelden, my PC is compelled to have some semblance of pride, though the sting of Alistair's rudeness isn't lessened.

Is he not hardened? You can definitely get him to stay with you if he is.

Also, while I understand the not wanting to force marriage to your PC on him, you can't fail the [persuade] check on naming yourself queen if you are a HNF that he loves. So he is fine with it, there's just no in game opportunity for discussion beforehand. Granted, he's still worried about the heir thing, but I think that's more his cognizance of the expectations that others (Eamon) have for him rather than his own issue.

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
 Can you seriously argue that building a University is more important than the lives she cost? 

I can argue that. Progress has always cost lives. In every civilisation. But it ends up benefitting the whole nation for both the short and long term.

You speak as If Anora took on a mass murder policy. She just crushed a food riot. That's it. I can't see the casualties to surpass a couple of hundreds. And even that is stretching it. And let's be honest here, the elves are mostly irrelevent to the general wellfare of Ferelden. 

Anora is tackling the roots of Ferelden's weakness and that's ignorance and barbarism. A university would help Ferelden become a leading nation, instead of remaining a backward one. Alistair is just tackling the symptoms. If Ferelden remains the way it is, more food riots will take place and lives will have to be taken anyhow. 

Clearly the best outcome is the PC ruling with Anora. It is described as a Golden Age, if they don't fight.
    

I did point out she DOES do some good in her rule.  And Surelyforth just proposed something that hadn't occured to me that Anora's rule was described more long term in which much good and much bad was done.  Alistair's does seem to be more an "immediate future" thing and perhaps his rule doesn't get a messed up situation in it because it doesn't have time to express that.
And I have never been able to force my HNM to marry her, Anora creates such antipathy in me I can't even force a pixil person to marry her so I haven't ever seen the epilogue. Though I have seen Al alone, Anora alone and the two of them married and for Ferelden of the three options I list in this sentence its really the best solution.

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You speak as If Anora took on a mass murder policy. She just crushed a food riot. That's it. I can't see the casualties to surpass a couple of hundreds. And even that is stretching it .

To be fair Sylvanaerie has in my opinion been very reasonable and far from one sided. she simply has a different opinion and I respect that. While your remark may be true of many other Anora hating posters I don't think it was really fair if it was directed at her.

As for the question of Progress versus saving lives, then my opinion is this. In the long term progress is the best way to eliminate poverty and eliminating poverty is the best way to save lives. This doesn't mean that progress justifies any hardship in the present, but in the larger scheme of things a local food riot during the Middle Ages is really dime a dozen.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 avril 2010 - 03:27 .