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[Tyrax Lightning]

Laxon wrote...

Sequels altering lore *cough*Oblivion*cough*

It is absolutely foolish and ruins the entire experience. Especially when you make it drastic, like going from near high fantasy to a medieval earth potatoes and radishes.

Do ya mean lore inconsistency between various games of a series? I agree with this. It's seriously jarring to immersion.

That reminds me of another seriously jarring game mechanic. Games that have different game combat systems between games of the same series. The Legend of Zelda & Mario series of games both bein superb examples. I can live with it, but having to retrain & repowerup EVERY single time ya end up in a new game is completely wierd & unexplainable. How do video game heroes go through their adventurers & get strong & skilled, then for no reason at all, be weak & unpowered at the beginning of the next game? Especially when it happens over & over & over & over... How do the video game heroes stand that?  If I kept having to re-power up over & over & over, I would be kinda miffed! Having to constantly replace your EXPERIENCE is worse than if you were stuck constantly losing & having to replace your gear!

Mind ya, I understand why the game makers do at least this mistake, but it's still kinda hard on both the logic & the immersion. Perhaps this system needs an overhaul. This is the 21st century now!

Edit: My proofreading missed an error again  & had to make a fix. I wish I had better eyeballs.

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 23 octobre 2009 - 08:00 .

[OwenM]

Both sequels altering lore, and sequels 'dumbing down' to be more appealing to the masses. While the latter is a financially sensible thing to do, it's ridiculous to have (continuing the Oblivion theme from Laxon) a sequel with less depth, effort, and mechanics than the game before it.

Especially when one of those decisions involves making the world more 'accessible' by changing the setting and lore, and making it so assassin's don't get any benefit from using short weapons. They do more damage wielding one-handed swords than using daggers. You should only use daggers for roleplaying. Which just...doesn't work when you can't, for some reason, stab a guy in the back and kill him in one hit. It breaks immersion because you then have to fight him straight up instead of being stealthy.



So I suppose, it's series disparities, and loss of immersion that annoys me. Or lack of effort on the dev's part. Particularly with story and dialogue.

[Laxon]

yup, what he ^ said

[Inhuman one]

Heh, Oblivion really seems to combine all game mistakes into one neat package.



The lore changes bothered me too, I was very annoyed at the Imperial soldiers looking Greek instead of Roman. It doesnt suit them at all, and there where a lot more imperial armors in Morrowind even while it didnt have the imperial province as its setting.



Nords not having beards and Dark Elves not having their grim voices where also some things that I missed a lot. Along with many other things.



Mistakes have been made with Mortal Kombat as well though.



Like changing characters a bit too extremely through the sequels and not provide the original outfits anymore. I personly used to like Sub-Zero before they had to make it extremely obvious in his appearance and outfit that he has ice powers. I prefered the subtle approach of just his cold breath being visible.

Reptile used to look human, the lizardlike form he gets through the later games looks terrible, and again removes the subtle approach.

Thats just two examples, there are many more.

Not even mentioning the personality changes yet.. too many characters turning good while they started out as evil.. Cyrax, Sub-Zero (I prefered the evil brother) and Ermac all became some wussy good guys.

[Tyrax Lightning]

More good points!
One of the worst things game makers (& movie makers) do is to half-bake game sequels, thinking they can just plain get away with it & thinking that 1st game success will make us gamers swallow ANYTHING future games in the series give us! (WRONG! ) Game makers that do this >>><<< us!

[Inhuman one]

thats pretty much what it comes down to yes, they get lazy when there is no competition. Any franchise needs a real rival. That keeps the developers sharp.



The Elder Scrolls games dont really have similar competition. There are many RPG's, but they only share aspects with elder scrolls and not the overall style. Hack and Slash RPG's usually are direct competition to each other because they are similar.



We can only hope that for an Elder Scrolls 5 they will look at all the games that handled specific aspects that Oblivion shares with them better and learn from it.



Oblivion's world was more lively than that of Morrowind, but its dead compared to Fable2 which still has things to do after all quests are finished, where you can get married and have children and where the people seem a lot more alive and social with each other. And the many shops also add atmosphere. They can learn from this.



I wont even begin to mention all the games with better character customization at the start since that would be pretty much every game. Oblivion didnt allow beards or such and it took a long time and several mods to make a character thats not ugly (attractive is impossible) The sims2 which was probably the first game with sliders for specific face parts and was an older game already did this a lot better than Oblivion.



And the combat.. well its rather simple compared to most RPG's. Spells are limited to simple stuff. I wouldnt dare call anyone in Oblivion a master mage. Morrowind did this a little better but not much. Archery was done quite good in Oblivion, arrows really pierce someone where you hit them. Melee combat is terrible though with some simple slashes. a 1th person view might be too limiting for melee combat. I always play this game in 3th person like any other rpg though.



And then there is the story.. the weakness of many RPG's. They can learn a lot from Bioware. For starters they should have more facial expressions and at least some body movement from NPC's during conversation. Perhaps allow a lot more dialogue options as well with choices, consequences and all that. Things that go further than yes or no.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Excellent points, every last one of them!

It's a major bummer when game makers make characters that coulda been awesome, but instead get ruined by their own creators. (Or the stupid accountants rushing the game & ruining it, just because they won't be held accountable for their actions! )

Shining Force Neo is such an example. The main character (Max) coulda been cool for his good heart & empathy, but for some wierd reason, they also made Max have wierd fashion sense, (Shamelessly biased opinion: belly shirts should be left to the gals, guys do NOT do well at all at looking good in them!) be ridiculously fragile in a game where there is no shortage of damage to have to take, (sometimes he has less health & defense than the casters! Ridiculous!) some occasional instances of corny dialogue, & he coulda used a better voice.

Meryl (main female character of the game) is cute & adorable, () but some of her dialogue face portraits make her look pug-faced, (she does NOT deserve that) her voice might not have been an optimum match for her character, (at least I don't think so) again some corny dialogue here & there, & worst of all, there are a couple of cases in the game where she, a bright girl for her age, suddenly starts acting like she has temporarily shut her brain off to do something completely stupid so the game story can go in the direction the game maker's desired.

Sometimes games like Shining Force Neo have the potential to be great, & have a solid foundation, but don't get the needed care to realize their potential. What's worse is when game makers fail to learn from their mistakes in sequels & repeat them, in addition to making new ones! Yes, I speak of Shining Force Exa. I read it's review, & was bummed. I was disappointed enough in the game to not buy it.

[Inhuman one]

I dont know that game but it sounds Japanese, sadly they often have that problem with portraying young men rather feminine.



Its really a shame with Mortal Kombat because its pretty much the only western fighter game, pretty much all others are Japanese and share the same stereotype characters.



Mortal Kombat is just bursting with potential, but its simply not realized. I think this franchise could use a fresh start with the story since they kind of cluttered it up with all kind of needless side stories and factions. They are also clinging too much to an arcade approach with no speech before battles and blood flying around with every little punch.



Brutal violence and fatalities are a trademark of the franchise that shouldnt be removed, but a bit more realism would be good to have. I would prefer it all to be more in the style of the 1th movie made of Mortal Kombat, the second one was terrible but I liked the style of the first. It really shows more of the tournament and how it works.

[Tyrax Lightning]

I have Shining Force Neo, so I was able to look at it's box, & it says it was made by Sega.

[Mountain King]

Monsters that level up with your party, makes the whole levelling process completely useless.



This "feature" ruined Wizardry 8 for me. And I have played that party from Wizardry 6 through 7, only to quit after 6 or 7 levels in part 8.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Mountain King wrote...

Monsters that level up with your party, makes the whole levelling process completely useless.

This "feature" ruined Wizardry 8 for me. And I have played that party from Wizardry 6 through 7, only to quit after 6 or 7 levels in part 8.

I personally sometimes wonder if 'leveling' is kinda old school now, & wonder if there's a better way now that we're in the 21st century.

Anyone here ever play Final Fantasy 2? It had an interesting growth system. I wonder if a more advanced form of it would rock? In that game, your stats, spell levels, & weapon skills grew as they got used in battle, the more they were used in battle. (some, like healing spells, could grow outside battle too) No levels or experience here, & it enabled how ya wanted to customize how you built your team.

[Stagmar]

FF2 was an interesting concept, but I didn't like how skills went up faster by using them on yourself rather than the enemy.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Stagmar wrote...

FF2 was an interesting concept, but I didn't like how skills went up faster by using them on yourself rather than the enemy.

Indeed one of the faults. It was also a blooper that it could be very hard to max out the level of some spells & weapons skills without the self inflicted damage strategy. That's why I think the system is cool, but does need some revamping & alteration to make it work for a modern game. It was still an imaginative idea.

[Dr. Explosion]

I have never played FF2, but that mechanic sounds like the "levelling" system used in TES 3 and 4, (and possibly 1 & 2, but I haven't played them either). I wonder if that's where Beth. got the idea?



On topic: I really HATE random encounters; since they are a staple of JRPGS, I tend to avoid those games (which, I gather, is lamentable). Random encounters, and tons of enemies/combat in games; in some games, (FPS, Strategy Games, "Action" games [as opposed to in-action games i suppose] ), this is the main point, and therefore acceptable, but in other games it is incredibly annoying, (Starforge from KoTOR, Defending the Graveyard in Vampire:TM - Bloodlines).

[Tyrax Lightning]

Random encounters made sense in old school games, but I agree, they're outdated now & it's time to phase them out in favor of more modern methods, like what KH2 did.

[Kilsot]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

Mountain King wrote...

Monsters that level up with your party, makes the whole levelling process completely useless.

This "feature" ruined Wizardry 8 for me. And I have played that party from Wizardry 6 through 7, only to quit after 6 or 7 levels in part 8.

I personally sometimes wonder if 'leveling' is kinda old school now, & wonder if there's a better way now that we're in the 21st century.

Anyone here ever play Final Fantasy 2? It had an interesting growth system. I wonder if a more advanced form of it would rock? In that game, your stats, spell levels, & weapon skills grew as they got used in battle, the more they were used in battle. (some, like healing spells, could grow outside battle too) No levels or experience here, & it enabled how ya wanted to customize how you built your team.

SWG was like this ... but SoE tampered with it and made it bad. EVE also has a different "leveling" system, but it takes FOREVER after awhile. As such, there is a point where the old leveling system and anything different are better than each other. Take my EVE example, if you wanted to become an awesome pilot you need to spend real time to level skills (granted you can level them while doing other stuff). The problem is that the skills start taking weeks and months to increase. The opposite side of the coin is where games have a very limited level cap that does not take long to reach. Think Guild Wars or Champions Online, both of these games take little time (about 12 game hours for CO) to reach max level. Game developers just need to find a happy median where progression does not take too long or reaches its peak after a day of play.

And to the random encounters: Is it bad if they do not bother me? It might be because I have a tendancy to stay in an area for awhile just leveling and if there are no random encounters then my levels disappear. I guess the random encounters and the leveling are tied together.

As a side note: Europe is the place that makes neat space games and TBS/SRPG games. Asia makes fantasy based games and MMOs of anything. NA makes action RPG/RTS/FPS games for our ADHD kids. Some one on Youtube (I know that immediately makes them irrelivant) wanted to DA:O to be more .... actiony. This Genre discrimination confuses me.

[BluesMan1956]

Inhuman one wrote...

...
The Elder Scrolls games dont really have similar competition. ...

But what about Two Worlds?  It was hyped as being "Oblivion on steroids"! <_<

[vyvexthorne]

The worst game mistakes I usually make is not saving.. Just playing for hours and forgetting to save.. then dying.. realizing I didn't save and then trying to figure out where I was and what I was doing, having to go through a whole sequence of things again to get back to where I was before I died... That's the most frustrating thing in a game.

Second most frustrating would be getting stuck physically in a game.. falling between a crack or into some rocks or falling through the ground because of some bug.. again this makes you have to reload. It's more frustrating in games on the 360 if this happens.. Usually PC games have cheats or codes.. a nice way to toggle collision. But the 360 you have no choice but to reload.

[Stagmar]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

Stagmar wrote...

FF2 was an interesting concept, but I didn't like how skills went up faster by using them on yourself rather than the enemy.

Indeed one of the faults. It was also a blooper that it could be very hard to max out the level of some spells & weapons skills without the self inflicted damage strategy. That's why I think the system is cool, but does need some revamping & alteration to make it work for a modern game. It was still an imaginative idea.

I agree.  They just have to be careful.

[Kilsot]

BluesMan1956 wrote...

Inhuman one wrote...

...
The Elder Scrolls games dont really have similar competition. ...

But what about Two Worlds?  It was hyped as being "Oblivion on steroids"! <_<

And Risen, and the Gothic Series, and Mount & Blade (but this is more sandboxy). TES does have competition, it is just not as well known as Oblivion and Morrowind especially since the ones I have named are all from Europe (usually these games get little to no advertising).

[Inhuman one]

Two worlds isnt good enough to be considered competition, it was hyped up to be but didnt deliver.



Risen and Gothic do have open worlds, but no character customization. At least gothic doesnt have that and I dont think Risen has it. Its kind of a vital part of an RPG if you ask me, at least the ones of this kind.



The worst thing to be encountered in any game might be full turn based combat though. It removes all exitement out of a battle and turns it into a math quiz. In a real fight people wouldnt walk forward, punch and then walk back to wait patiently for the other person to take his turn.

If its done like in neverwinter nights or KOTOR it can look quite good because it does look like a fight. Its still not a selling point but its not that negative either.

[BluesMan1956]

Inhuman one wrote...

Two worlds isnt good enough to be considered competition, it was hyped up to be but didnt deliver.

<_<<- You didn't notice I wsa using the facetious smiley

[Ninjaphrog]

The most annoying thing in a game for me is ironically in the very end of the game....the credits....the god damn unskipable credits......I hate them....so badly



You finally finish the game after several failed attempts to kill the final boss...you watch the final cinematic with pride and then expect to get back to main menu and try it again on a higher difficulty or with some cool unlocked things..



AND THERE ARE THE CREDITS!!! rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling, and you try every trick in the book...secret combos, the start button(mainly on consoles), or try every single key/button, yet NOTHING works, you're stuck watching names of people you don't really give a damn about you just wanna continue!!!!



I also greatly dislike things like sillyness in a serious game.



Take Fable II...

The game is fun and interresting and quite srs bizznizz untill you need to build or lower some rep....burps....farts...dancing...seriously people....



And of course the most common....bugs and glitches...who here can say they never threw a fit while running along a hall and suddenly falling through the earth and have to start all over again as you fall into the abyss of nothingness?

[Tyrax Lightning]

Agree with boring credits!  Some at least have great music in them, but sometimes the credits can indeed be very boring, dull buggers. I mean no offense to the game makers, & I understand why they would want appreciation, but take a page outta Pixar's book & spice up the credits scenes!

[Inhuman one]

When credits are accompanied by great art in the background and some quality music (which most games lack) its certainly not a punishment to watch the credits.



For Enclave I really enjoyed it for example.



I agree about sillyness to some degree. I dont mind things getting a bit silly in a game, but it shouldnt break the immersion.



With Fable2 I didnt mind the farting and such much since you can choose your interactions. you dont need to fart. But I didnt like the grease style outfit in knothole glade. That seemed very much out of character. Same for the halo rifle.



Thats also a thing Bioware seems to have done right so far, they can create some greatly humourous situations without breaking immersion. They can use the available setting, characters and such to make something funny without having to break immersion.