380 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
I'm just gonna give you a hint, you don't need to answer this, I would ask you to keep it to yourself. Consider yourself "won" in the argument if you want: by the logic you're using, your example by why Mordin is irreplaceable is wrong. He is replaceable.

How is Mordin replaceable?

Same way with Sheppard. For example his Assistant that you can choose to have him killed or not on his loyality mission. It could easily have been the student who you recuited and mordin who was trying to cure the genophage if we're going with your logic.

Problem is the fact that you are trying to replace the main character. If the main character is replaced, it means anyone else can be replaced. X or Y persons could replace everyone we know in ME universe. Sheppard may have taken an backseat an bit in the plot, but that due to the fact that he was running around gathering people. My only problem is that I wish there was a loyality-esc mission for you, perhaps based on your past.

It was nice that it happened in ME, but ME2, you got raised from the dead, and either you got accepted back into spectres at the ranch or you left them. Either way, you still have the mission to do with the collectors who are continously hitting colonies throughout the game. Really that's the only difference. Cause either way, you got nothing to be attached to, hell you just got raised from the dead after two years, I bet Liara/Ashley/Kaiden collected your life insurance policy.

Either way Techinally there is just as many qualfiied people in the galaxy as these 12, however these 12 are more likely to join you. We still get old ties, but that's after people thought you were freakin dead. They have moved on. Sheppard centric to the plot? No not really, but I highly doubt anyone else but sheppard ruputation as the first human spectre would have gotten thane and the others to join. Everything would have gone down differently and then it would be an entirely new story.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 11 avril 2010 - 06:30 .

[smudboy]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Same way with Sheppard. For example his Assistant that you can choose to have him killed or not on his loyality mission. It could easily have been the student who you recuited and mordin who was trying to cure the genophage if we're going with your logic.

Within the confines of the plot, that is, the intro by TIM and Miranda, Mordin is the only character that is needed.  It is possible that Mordin's assistant was the next scientist on that dossier list if Mordin wasn't available, but that's speculation.

The real question is: do you have any evidence to support that any other character could've made the countermeasure?  (And yes, the assistant seems like a possible match, but they're busy doing something else.  What motivation would the assistant have in joining Cerberus, since they were busy working away on a genophage cure?  Would Shepard have been able to convince them to join?  It's possible.)

Compare this to Tali in ME1.  She was the only one with data on Saren.  True, that data could've been given to someone else, but again, that's speculation on what Tali would've done with the data had Shepard not saved her.  (And yes, she could've been killed, had Shepard arrived late, and then Shepard simply had to pick up the evidence.)

It helps that both Tali and Mordin have motivations to the main plot: Mordin's recruitment involves the plague, which he believed to be associated with the Collectors.  Tali was looking for the Shadow Broker so she could trade the evidence for a place to hide, since Saren was pursuing her.  Mordin makes a deal to help Shepard, and Tali decides to give the evidence to Udina, and eventually Shepard becomes a Spectre.

So potentially, if Shepard helped Mordin's assistant in accomplishing something along with the genophage cure, I could see it as a possibility for recruitment.  Again, this is just speculation.

Problem is the fact that you are trying to replace the main character. If the main character is replaced, it means anyone else can be replaced. X or Y persons could replace everyone we know in ME universe. Sheppard may have taken an backseat an bit in the plot, but that due to the fact that he was running around gathering people. My only problem is that I wish there was a loyality-esc mission for you, perhaps based on your past.

I would say they can all be replaced, save Mordin.  This is the flaw of ME2.  I believe on my first signature link, I try to look at the point/value of all the characters.

I agree, Shepard needs any kind of exposition.  Flat and static characters do not make good protagonists.

It was nice that it happened in ME, but ME2, you got raised from the dead, and either you got accepted back into spectres at the ranch or you left them. Either way, you still have the mission to do with the collectors who are continously hitting colonies throughout the game. Really that's the only difference. Cause either way, you got nothing to be attached to, hell you just got raised from the dead after two years, I bet Liara/Ashley/Kaiden collected your life insurance policy.

It's funny.  The Prothean visions, the Cipher, the Spectre status, all of that was completely useless in ME2.  Even the plot of the Reapers from ME1 trying to initiate the cycle of destruction is neglected.

I like how someone else put it: "Plot?  What plot?  This is Shepards Rock Band Tour."

Either way Techinally there is just as many qualfiied people in the galaxy as these 12, however these 12 are more likely to join you. We still get old ties, but that's after people thought you were freakin dead. They have moved on. Sheppard centric to the plot? No not really, but I highly doubt anyone else but sheppard ruputation as the first human spectre would have gotten thane and the others to join. Everything would have gone down differently and then it would be an entirely new story.

Shepard's spectre status had nothing to do with recruitment.  Thane just needed a distraction: besides, he wanted to die.  Knowing that there's an enemy to kill (or remove a darkness from the universe), he'd come along regardless.

Besides, we don't get any reason as to why Thane is recruitable.  This is another inherent problem with the plot: we know nothing of our goal till we decide to go through the relay.  TIM should've been getting intel on the Collectors so that they knew what team to build, or what strategy to employ.  I use the term "so are we having a land war in asia?"  Since we're just getting soldiers to fight what is at least a ship battle (Collector Cruiser.)  We learn nothing about the Collectors military status or numbers throughtout the entire story.

Modifié par smudboy, 11 avril 2010 - 06:57 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

smudboy wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Same way with Sheppard. For example his Assistant that you can choose to have him killed or not on his loyality mission. It could easily have been the student who you recuited and mordin who was trying to cure the genophage if we're going with your logic.

Within the confines of the plot, that is, the intro by TIM and Miranda, Mordin is the only character that is needed.  It is possible that Mordin's assistant was the next scientist on that dossier list if Mordin wasn't available, but that's speculation.

The real question is: do you have any evidence to support that any other character could've made the countermeasure? 

I am pretty postive that the assistant would have some idea. He was after all mordin's student, and professor. He had great potentinal as mordin put it only problem was that he had an renegrade attuide to finding things out. Heck, he was working on a genophage cure.... I am sure seeker swarm repellent isnt that hard to come up with. Only real problem would be making sure it didn't harm the users.

Problem is the fact that you are trying to replace the main character. If the main character is replaced, it means anyone else can be replaced. X or Y persons could replace everyone we know in ME universe. Sheppard may have taken an backseat an bit in the plot, but that due to the fact that he was running around gathering people. My only problem is that I wish there was a loyality-esc mission for you, perhaps based on your past.

I would say they can all be replaced, save Mordin.  This is the flaw of ME2.  I believe on my first signature link, I try to look at the point/value of all the characters.

I agree, Shepard needs any kind of exposition.  Flat and static characters do not make good protagonists.

I dis-agree, The Student could easily have replaced mordin. See above why. To be honest, From the way I looked at it in ME2... Sheppard is reacting to everything becuase he just got back into it, he has no footing. he has no resources save cebersus. Council is calling BS on him, Alliance is useless becuase Cerbersus bought him to life. At this point he has little to no choice to be anything but the dog of Cerbersus.

It was nice that it happened in ME, but ME2, you got raised from the dead, and either you got accepted back into spectres at the ranch or you left them. Either way, you still have the mission to do with the collectors who are continously hitting colonies throughout the game. Really that's the only difference. Cause either way, you got nothing to be attached to, hell you just got raised from the dead after two years, I bet Liara/Ashley/Kaiden collected your life insurance policy.

It's funny.  The Prothean visions, the Cipher, the Spectre status, all of that was completely useless in ME2.  Even the plot of the Reapers from ME1 trying to initiate the cycle of destruction is neglected.

I like how someone else put it: "Plot?  What plot?  This is Shepards Rock Band Tour."

No plot is ever perfect, even shakespeare makes mistakes.

Either way Techinally there is just as many qualfiied people in the galaxy as these 12, however these 12 are more likely to join you. We still get old ties, but that's after people thought you were freakin dead. They have moved on. Sheppard centric to the plot? No not really, but I highly doubt anyone else but sheppard ruputation as the first human spectre would have gotten thane and the others to join. Everything would have gone down differently and then it would be an entirely new story.

Shepard's spectre status had nothing to do with recruitment.  Thane just needed a distraction: besides, he wanted to die.  Knowing that there's an enemy to kill (or remove a darkness from the universe), he'd come along regardless.

Besides, we don't get any reason as to why Thane is recruitable. 

Sure it is. He says it right there then you recuit him. I can have at least one purge one more darkness from the galaxy. He's an viligilite assassin. It's what he does, kill evil things. He's more paladin in some ways then Samara which is I find harlilious.

This is another inherent problem with the plot: we know nothing of our goal till we decide to go through the relay.  TIM should've been getting intel on the Collectors so that they knew what team to build, or what strategy to employ.  I use the term "so are we having a land war in asia?"  Since we're just getting soldiers to fight what is at least a ship battle (Collector Cruiser.)  We learn nothing about the Collectors military status or numbers throughtout the entire story.

The whole point of the plot is that we don't know what to expect past the Omega IV relay. The whole point of the game is centered on this final sucide mission. No ship has ever returned from it. Hard to gather intell on that kindof thing isn't it when all your ships get propelled into the disk of an super massive blackhole but knowing TIM, I am sure he tried.

To be honest, I would not have been surprised if there was an planet there with an artifical star or something. I have expected to see an collector homeworld. When we learn of the center, we know it's surronded by blackholes, etc etc the galactic center, we now have something on what's past the omega IV relay. We get tid-bits of infomation but you don't get an clear picture till you past the omega IV relay.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 11 avril 2010 - 08:19 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

1. For one thing it's not just the Prothean visions, it's also his status as a Spectre which allows him to make the choices he does, but you don't get it. This isn't an argument about what he is physically capable or allowed to do in the world of the story. This is about the fact that Shepard's choices in ME1 are 100% responsible for moving the plot along he is the central character of the story and everything that happens happens as a result of his choices.

2. In ME2 Shepard is a passive character in the story with only the illusion of choice everything is happening outside of his domain or even without his knowledge and he's simply following orders from someone else. His only connection to what is happening is tenuous at best.

3. ME1 is a story about Commander Shepard becoming the first human Spectre and Saving the Galaxy. ME2 is a story about Cerberus bring back Commander Shepard from the dead and using him for their own purposes. He never really makes any important decisions in the story.

The problem I have with all these arguments is that they are statements that can be applied just as much to ME1.

1) How are they 100% responsible for moving the plot? In both games, everything follows a definitive style. Character A gives you mission X. Shepard completes mission X in a certain manor. Rinse and repeat. This goes for both games, whether it's the Council or Cerberus handing out the briefings. How is Shepard 'passive' merely by responding to all these different conflicts? In ME1, he was active by detonating a nuke on Virmire. In ME2, he is active by boarding a derelict Reaper and recovers an IFF.

Plus, the fact that you're supporting Smudboy throws your arguments a wrench. He's arguing that Shepard is replaceable in ME2. Your argument seems to rely on active vs. passive characters. How is Shepard irreplaceable in ME1, do tell? Every action he takes Kaidan could easily have done. If Kaidan had been the potential Spectre, he would have touched the Beacon, he would have investigated Saren, and he would have gone to Ilos.

2. I believe every mission I was given in ME1 was the result of either the Council or UNSC. This goes for Feros, Noveria, Virmire, etc, barring Ilos. So if you're going to use 'one' mission to show how Shepard is an active character, you might want to try harder. Beyond that, every mission he is sent on between both games is the result of some third party.

3. Oh? I thought the story of the ME universe revolved around Shepard's goal of stopping the Reapers. Shepard also saved the galaxy/human colonies in ME2, the only difference is there was far less media surrounding it. I don't see how this devalues his actions.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 11 avril 2010 - 08:14 .

[Jackal904]

Suck it up. Just because ME2 doesn't have a bunch of tedious menues to deal with doesn't mean it's not an rpg.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
I'm just gonna give you a hint, you don't need to answer this, I would ask you to keep it to yourself. Consider yourself "won" in the argument if you want: by the logic you're using, your example by why Mordin is irreplaceable is wrong. He is replaceable.

How is Mordin replaceable?

This guy does not understand the difference between story structure and character development, passive and active involvement of those characters within that story and the reality of the world of the story.

He is basically saying "If they can replace Shepard, well surely there's another brilliant scientist somewhere in the universe." ergo he is a fanboy "doing his duty fopr Bioware" and doesn't understand the argument being made.

I do understand your point.  I just don't agree that Shepard is replaceable for the reasons you and smudboy list. If you take the plot of ME2 as only "The Collectors are abducting human colonies, someone has to stop them" Shepard is replaceable on ME1 as well. "Saren is rebel spectre, someone has to get him", the rest you discover through Shepard's footsteps and because you are Shepard. The beginning of ME2 is the Collectors attacking Shepard and then Shepard's resurrection. All what happened later has the direct involvement of Shepard, the story develops on Shepard's footsteps again.

Also,the mission to stop the Collectors itself happened because of Sheppard. So the plot of "The Collectors are abducting human colonies, someone has to stop them", happens because of Shepard. No one is doing nothing to it, even Cerberus hasn't taken action yet because they were getting intel and Shepard back. Well, I think this proves why Shepard is relevant and directly involved to the plot, even if I had the idea to write it by accident just now . Does this convince you?

Another example to reinforce Shepard's relevance to the plot is at the end of the game. If Shepard dies, you won't get your save to ME3. Well, this is speculation but I will say it again. You can assume the reapers came and obliterated all life on the galaxy if you have the end where Shepard dies.

[smudboy]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I am pretty postive that the assistant would have some idea. He was after all mordin's student, and professor. He had great potentinal as mordin put it only problem was that he had an renegrade attuide to finding things out. Heck, he was working on a genophage cure.... I am sure seeker swarm repellent isnt that hard to come up with. Only real problem would be making sure it didn't harm the users.

Yes, I can see that.

Even due to the nature of the plot progression, Mordin wasn't used beyond that.  I was hoping the "mad doctor" would've been more maddening, or put into more extreme scenes, so to speak.  Perhaps his skills in STG, or creating a anti-Collector bioweapon, something (i.e. Shepard losing a limb, Mordin quickly rebuilding it with tech.)  It's a shame the countermeasure got reduced to a plot device, or was never upgraded (i.e. biotic bubble).  But having a plot device and an intro is more than all the other characters combined.

I dis-agree, The Student could easily have replaced mordin. See above why. To be honest, From the way I looked at it in ME2... Sheppard is reacting to everything becuase he just got back into it, he has no footing. he has no resources save cebersus. Council is calling BS on him, Alliance is useless becuase Cerbersus bought him to life. At this point he has little to no choice to be anything but the dog of Cerbersus.

Within the confines of the argument, I say Shepard is replaceable even before his rebuilding because anyone can do what they did (and Cerberus would've been more efficient, had all that money and saved many more lives, and a more trusted agent, like Miranda, and the Alliance/Council involvement wouldn't have been ncessary.)

Within the confines of Mordin's necessity, I could only point to the motivations and connection between the plague, and the deal he makes with Shepard to join (and then we speculate on why the assistant would join, and why we didn't let the assistant join during the loyalty mission.)  Had the Vorcha that mentioned the Collectors and the plague gone anywhere, it might've been a clue as to the rest of the plot.

No plot is ever perfect, even shakespeare makes mistakes.

Yes, but when Shakespeare makes a farce, we know it going in.

Sure it is. He says it right there then you recuit him. I can have at least one purge one more darkness from the galaxy. He's an viligilite assassin. It's what he does, kill evil things. He's more paladin in some ways then Samara which is I find harlilious.

Thane just needed a distraction.  He knows of Shepard's career, but I don't see how that influenced him, considering whoever would've come caused the distraction he needed, and thus saved his life.  He's interested in the Collectors, and would've gone along with anyone.

Samara is paladin to the max.  She's been doing it 400+ years, and considers herself "just", which I believe means never breaking her 5000 sutra rulebook.  Thane, however, killed some people for personal reasons.

The whole point of the plot is that we don't know what to expect past the Omega IV relay. The whole point of the game is centered on this final sucide mission. No ship has ever returned from it. Hard to gather intell on that kindof thing isn't it when all your ships get propelled into the disk of an super massive blackhole but knowing TIM, I am sure he tried.

Yet another point of contention: why no one thought of gaining intel on an enemy in various ways before putting all of ones eggs in one basket.  This could've easily have been done after going onto the Collector ship.  I'm sure there would've been some navagational logs, while still keeping their motives secret (mind you I was hoping to find out their motives at the end, too.)  That would've been enough to satisfy what the devil was going on (what really is beyond the relay, why we're picking up all these people, what tactics to employ, etc.)

To be honest, I would not have been surprised if there was an planet there with an artifical star or something. I have expected to see an collector homeworld. When we learn of the center, we know it's surronded by blackholes, etc etc the galactic center, we now have something on what's past the omega IV relay. We get tid-bits of infomation but you don't get an clear picture till you past the omega IV relay.

We don't get tidbits.  We get speculation from EDI, Mordin and Jacob as to what's in the galactic core after the Collector Cruiser mission.  That's all.  I would've thought the heavy weapon pickup would've had some exposition or military use aside from simply getting a new gun.

[Dudeman315]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...


Another example to reinforce Shepard's relevance to the plot is at the end of the game. If Shepard dies, you won't get your save to ME3. Well, this is speculation but I will say it again. You can assume the reapers came and obliterated all life on the galaxy if you have the end where Shepard dies.

Or Cerberus just rebuilds shepard again if you keep the base intact.  Or there is enough to recover from the explosion, etc.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

smudboy wrote...
Yet another point of contention: why no one thought of gaining intel on an enemy in various ways before putting all of ones eggs in one basket.  This could've easily have been done after going onto the Collector ship.  I'm sure there would've been some navagational logs, while still keeping their motives secret (mind you I was hoping to find out their motives at the end, too.)  That would've been enough to satisfy what the devil was going on (what really is beyond the relay, why we're picking up all these people, what tactics to employ, etc.)

This where we disagree, as I recall according to TIM, he put all resources into finding out more about the collectors. The collectors aren't dumb and going to leave calling cards everywhere they go. TIM is good, but he is not that good.

Their motives are simple - to make a human reaper, more than likely to replace the vanguard that was killed. That was blanantly ovious. Edi was an bit busy combating the collector ship's system attacks. Why we're picking up this team of people? easy enough, you need an band of group who know can handle any situation thrown at them and surivive.

the plot itself was pretty straight-forward, it was an collector trap. Why would they leave this stuff in plain view? I'm going to set an trap, o btw, I'm also going to leave you where I have been for teh past 6 months, and directions to where I'm going. Uh huh... sure.

We don't get tidbits.  We get speculation from EDI, Mordin and Jacob as to what's in the galactic core after the Collector Cruiser mission.  That's all.  I would've thought the heavy weapon pickup would've had some exposition or military use aside from simply getting a new gun.

.... speculation. It's not speculation that it's an nightmare of blackholes and very nasty stuff in the Galactic Core. Not all missions are going to be clear-cut, this is the infomation you need. Most combat situations, you know the area around you, who is with you, MAYBE who is where,  and who is shooting at you. At best. This is called a suicide run for a REASON. The lack of infomation makes it an sucide run. Military OP's called it an sucide mission when you can't do what you just asked for and speculation is the best you got. You don't know what your going to face going thru that relay.

I am sorry that you think it's bad writing cause clues weren't written out, but then people would be like... "bioware, this isn't an sucide mission if I know where the hell i'm going, who I'm facing and what tactic deployment I need."

Besides, I thought the speculation was pretty spot on. I throughly convinced that their speculation was right on the money anyway from the begining because it's the same assumptions I made when I saw the little circle light up on the center of the galaxy. I figured at the start that it was going to either an homeworld - large asteriod Base - or an space station.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 11 avril 2010 - 08:40 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Dudeman315 wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...


Another example to reinforce Shepard's relevance to the plot is at the end of the game. If Shepard dies, you won't get your save to ME3. Well, this is speculation but I will say it again. You can assume the reapers came and obliterated all life on the galaxy if you have the end where Shepard dies.

Or Cerberus just rebuilds shepard again if you keep the base intact.  Or there is enough to recover from the explosion, etc.

Errr, if this was a possibility I'm pretty sure Bioware would let you import your save to ME3.

[smudboy]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
This where we disagree, as I recall according to TIM, he put all resources into finding out more about the collectors. The collectors aren't dumb and going to leave calling cards everywhere they go. TIM is good, but he is not that good.

They certainly left one of their seeker swarms lying about for Mordin to experiment with; a plot hole.  (How Cerberus got it, we've no idea.)

How the Collectors collect without leaving a trace is still debateable, since the only times we see them in action is on Veetor's video, and that massive hole they left in Horizon.  Considering the pods they left on Horizon were still there, I didn't see why Cerberus didn't pick a few up and study them.

(Ditto with the Big Reveal that Collectors are Protheans.  We encountered a dead Collector on Horizon whose DNA was readily available.)

Their motives are simple - to make a human reaper, more than likely to replace the vanguard that was killed. That was blanantly ovious. Edi was an bit busy combating the collector ship's system attacks. Why we're picking up this team of people? easy enough, you need an band of group who know can handle any situation thrown at them and surivive.

We know they were making a human Reaper, but we don't know why they were.

The fact that it was a massive humanoid giant is farcical.

Why would they replace the vanguard that was killed?

Also, if the Collectors existed for 50k years, why weren't they in the battle of the citadel?  Would a vanguard really make that mistake?  If so, would it be logical to start the process of making a human reaper by slowly collecting humans in the way the Collectors did?  If so that would take a while.  The assumption the entire team makes when on the Collector ship is that they'll attack earth.  How would they know that?  That doesn't even make sense, no matter how powerful the Collector ship is, it would take decades, and by then someone would've caught on (despite already losing 100k+ people and 2 years having passed, eventually the brain dead Council and Alliance would take notice.)

And sorry, building a team of that many people to handle a land war in Asia is meaningless.  It only tells me that someone knows the plot and isn't revealing it to the viewer properly. If all we know is that the Collectors have a cruiser, we need better ship weapons, sensors, shields, armor, guns, missiles, bombs, etc.  Not soldiers.  Once we have a target, location, understanding of such things, then sure, go get a specific spec ops team going.

the plot itself was pretty straight-forward, it was an collector trap. Why would they leave this stuff in plain view? I'm going to set an trap, o btw, I'm also going to leave you where I have been for teh past 6 months, and directions to where I'm going. Uh huh... sure.

I'm not saying that's the only way we could've got exposition, but it would've been a way to get info on the enemy.  Any kind of info to tell us our goal.

.... speculation. It's not speculation that it's an nightmare of blackholes and very nasty stuff in the Galactic Core. Not all missions are going to be clear-cut, this is the infomation you need. Most combat situations, you know the area around you, who is with you, MAYBE who is where,  and who is shooting at you. At best. This is called a suicide run for a REASON. The lack of infomation makes it an sucide run. Military OP's called it an sucide mission when you can't do what you just asked for and speculation is the best you got. You don't know what your going to face going thru that relay.

It's still speculation.

The lack of information doesn't make it a suicide run.  It makes it stupid.  A suicide run is knowing that the enemy is far greater than you, and the chances of winning are slim.  This scenario is next to completely unknown, save for the Collector Cruiser.  How Jacob determines the ship is ready or people are 'clear' is nonsense.

Again, they could've sent IFF probes, with IFF comm buoys, setup a satellite network, etc.  In fact, imagine if in the game you could travel to a solar system, plant a satellite mass relay comm buoy, and then later EDI informs you of Collectors in that region?  You'd be chasing that thing down.  Considering you can buy probes to scan planets, I don't see how it's impossible to line the ship with satellites and making a net, to start spying on our ever illusive Collector ship (that went around taking out Ferris Fields and then New Canton.  Whoops.)

I am sorry that you think it's bad writing cause clues weren't written out, but then people would be like... "bioware, this isn't an sucide mission if I know where the hell i'm going, who I'm facing and what tactic deployment I need."

There weren't any clues to write out.

Besides, I thought the speculation was pretty spot on. I throughly convinced that their speculation was right on the money anyway from the begining because it's the same assumptions I made when I saw the little circle light up on the center of the galaxy. I figured at the start that it was going to either an homeworld - large asteriod Base - or an space station.

Of course it was spot on.  The writer knew what the end game was without telling us, and they had to patch something together to have it make sense.  You're fighting a land war in Asia.  It couldn't possibly be anything else, else the Suicide Mission would've occurred much sooner, we'd recruit less crew members, and more "other" equipment.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Oh come on Smudboy, everybody knows that Cerberus couldn't have pulled off the suicide mission without Thane to double your capacity of anal probes, Samara to allow you to waste more fuel and Jack to shine like the crazy diamond she is.

Chakwas certainly has the best taste in brandy and Shep clearly has the best jawline and most iconic voice in the universe. And that's important.

This is amateur stuff, really.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 11 avril 2010 - 09:28 .

[Dudeman315]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Dudeman315 wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...


Another example to reinforce Shepard's relevance to the plot is at the end of the game. If Shepard dies, you won't get your save to ME3. Well, this is speculation but I will say it again. You can assume the reapers came and obliterated all life on the galaxy if you have the end where Shepard dies.

Or Cerberus just rebuilds shepard again if you keep the base intact.  Or there is enough to recover from the explosion, etc.

Errr, if this was a possibility I'm pretty sure Bioware would let you import your save to ME3.

You don't know we can't until ME3 is released.  Anything else is just speculation and subject to change.

And now that I'm thinking about why wasn't Thane more sneaky.  I mean he joins you then fights like a front line fighter?? I thought he was supposed to be an assassin why would he face his enemies head on like that?

[tonnactus]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

Is ME2 an RPG? I though it was Gears wearing a new pair of stylish pants. I hope they put the RPG aspects back and stop pandering to the Gears crowd. I also hope the put back in side quests that involve more than my character running in shooting a few people then pushing a button then B to end mission. It's BORING BioWare BORING!!!!!!!!!!

Its interesting and funny that Cliffy B thinks that Rpgs are the future of shooters.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
They certainly left one of their seeker swarms lying about for Mordin to experiment with; a plot hole.  (How Cerberus got it, we've no idea.)

How the Collectors collect without leaving a trace is still debateable, since the only times we see them in action is on Veetor's video, and that massive hole they left in Horizon.  Considering the pods they left on Horizon were still there, I didn't see why Cerberus didn't pick a few up and study them.

(Ditto with the Big Reveal that Collectors are Protheans.  We encountered a dead Collector on Horizon whose DNA was readily available.)
[/quote]
Perhaps,  to be honest, it might have taken an while to get Prothean DNA or whatever but that is speculation. But there is plot holes in every story. ME2 is no different just like ME1 or any other game etc. Sorry that the game was not up to your specs, but rarely does an product please everyone. Besides, you do realize that perhaps nobody thought to do it? Most ideas like this are eureka ideas.

[quote]
We know they were making a human Reaper, but we don't know why they were.

The fact that it was a massive humanoid giant is farcical.

Why would they replace the vanguard that was killed?
[/quote]
Becuase humans were able to kill it and thus are an good race to apparently turn into goo.

You going to need another vanguard on the next sweep in 50k years. Why not humans since we apparently killed a reaper.

Secondly, that was the eco-skeleton, it could be the interior design of the reaper itself, and in the end it will end up looking like the rest of the reapers, but inside, there is an human form inside... much putting an person in an pod. At this point, anything is speculation.

[quote]
Also, if the Collectors existed for 50k years, why weren't they in the battle of the citadel?  Would a vanguard really make that mistake?  If so, would it be logical to start the process of making a human reaper by slowly collecting humans in the way the Collectors did?  If so that would take a while.  The assumption the entire team makes when on the Collector ship is that they'll attack earth.  How would they know that?  That doesn't even make sense, no matter how powerful the Collector ship is, it would take decades, and by then someone would've caught on (despite already losing 100k+ people and 2 years having passed, eventually the brain dead Council and Alliance would take notice.)
[/quote]
O dear god, this question again. Does the collectors really look like shock troops/front line troops to you? Hell, they had ONE cruiser. One which I add would have gotten shreded. You don't send all your pieces forward  on an chess board you know, the collectors were the reapers backup plan.

Soverign didnt make an mistake, His plan would have worked perfectly if sheppard had not gotten though. It was an failure on the herectical geth and saren's fault for not being able to stop him.

Secondly, collectors might have been the domain of harbringer and he did not have access to them.

Well it certainly poses a problem when you enter an collector ship and see enough space to fit how many billions of humans? Either way that was an worse case scenario of an speculation I might add, or are we allowing speculation as clues now?

My thoughts are that the reapers were going to move in eventually but were going to wait till the human reaper was an little bit more done. Earth would have been ****ed after 20 reapers showed up and wiped out any defense, then little old collector ship comes in and claims the billions of humans.

and last part is speculation. Sadly, I highly doubt the council/alliance would have caught on in time to do anything.  Unless it truely threatens the galaxy... O wait... this does, but they are shoving things under the rug and can't face facts. Either way, the council is more like the UN which means by the time anything gets done, they are ****ed.

[quote]
And sorry, building a team of that many people to handle a land war in Asia is meaningless.  It only tells me that someone knows the plot and isn't revealing it to the viewer properly. If all we know is that the Collectors have a cruiser, we need better ship weapons, sensors, shields, armor, guns, missiles, bombs, etc.  Not soldiers.  Once we have a target, location, understanding of such things, then sure, go get a specific spec ops team going.
[/quote]


I don't see it that way. Why should you wait to build your team? Why? you already know your going to need them, why not grab all of them while your out and then pick and choose who you need?  That's equilvant to being like "Well I'll go out to the store and get it when i need it." It doesn't work that way. Becuase when you need Tali, o wait, she got tried for treason and is exiled and is somewhere else in the galaxy, sorry. O wait, you need an trained thief to sneak in? O sorry, she's an bit busy during the heist, I am sure the collectors will wait.

It's called preparing for the worst case scenario, you don't cut corners, it's an very good way to get yourself screwed and killed very fast. To be honest, If you were leading the thing with the ME2 plot, you would be scrambling to find people for your sucide mission at the last minute while your crew gets pulped with what you just said.

[quote]
I'm not saying that's the only way we could've got exposition, but it would've been a way to get info on the enemy.  Any kind of info to tell us our goal.
[/quote]
Your goal is to stop the collectors. We stopped them did we not? You tactical pulsed or blew them into an black hole. Can't get any better result then that.

[quote]
It's still speculation.
[/quote]
Gee, I don't know, I could speculate that it's more than likely an space station surronded by an mass field then a planet considering the galactic core is full of super massive black holes and nasty things. But there is also the possiblity of an mass effect field that is big enough to encompress the surronding area of an planet.

I am sorry, but that is so blanantly ovious. You did not like how infomation was handled in ME2, I am sorry, but it was easy enough for me to speculate on what I was facing to be reasonably sure that I was correct means that it was an failure on your part, not mine to predict what might happen.

In the end, you are speculating until you are there, on the ground doing it. All intel gathering is time/what info that intell was given. nothing more, nothing less. For all you know, if it was an planet, o wait, is it an giant city, or perhaps an underground complex? Or maybe it's an hollowed out asteriod? Or perhaps, you had infomation on their secret base, got there and the entire base got moved to a moon base? Perhaps the intell was slightly off? Your Intel itself is speculation. Enemy plans change, Base locations change etc. Things adapt and change. Welcome to warfare.

[quote]
The lack of information doesn't make it a suicide run.  It makes it stupid.  A suicide run is knowing that the enemy is far greater than you, and the chances of winning are slim.  This scenario is next to completely unknown, save for the Collector Cruiser.  How Jacob determines the ship is ready or people are 'clear' is nonsense.
[/quote]
Well See above... there was pretty of infomation to be gathered. Lack of infomation DOES make it an sucide mission.

I shall now hand you an gun, there is merc's in the next room, I don't know how many, or how well armed, where the room is situationed. O wait... that is most of the missions in Mass Effect 2.  You never get an specified amount of enemy, you know X band of merc's here, and they try to kill you. That's it. This is no different with the collectors.

Jacob determines it by the number of upgrades you made to the ship, how well prepared you are in the event of needing more fuel, mineral scanner, armored plating, upgraded cannons, shields etc. If people are all loyal and they have no qualms or past ties to deal with once past the OMEGA IV relay, then... they are cleared right?

[quote]
Again, they could've sent IFF probes, with IFF comm buoys, setup a satellite network, etc.  In fact, imagine if in the game you could travel to a solar system, plant a satellite mass relay comm buoy, and then later EDI informs you of Collectors in that region?  You'd be chasing that thing down.  Considering you can buy probes to scan planets, I don't see how it's impossible to line the ship with satellites and making a net, to start spying on our ever illusive Collector ship (that went around taking out Ferris Fields and then New Canton.  Whoops.)
[/quote]

I'm sure the TIM tried. He is not the type to cut corners just because of cost becuase well, he spent 4 billion to raise you from the dead. Another couple billion wouldn't matter at that point.

1) You know how many friggin bouys that would be? not even worth the time or effort to put them in place. That's even more of an long shot then your suicide mission. Plus you would need an base of operations or multiple bases of operations in order to do it. You also do realize that it takes DAYS to get from one Mass Relay to another right? I mean, the collector ship attack on horizon we got lucky cause ceberus got a tip and we were imeterably able to make head way there. Third, this is not in the plot, this is speculation of what ifs.

2) You would need an fleet of ships to do it. on top of that, you would have to recuit all those ships to do it. 

3) Third I feel sorry for the poor SOB who happens to be in the area where the collector ship pops in.

4) And if the alliance goes, wtf is an cerbersus sat doing here? BOOM. Gee, collectors are there. OR perhaps, some salvage vessel grabs it etc.

Toss in the fact that not all relays have been discovered and mapped out. Good luck sir. Good luck. Then if you do strike gold, good luck on killing it. I am pretty sure, you'll be busy sitting on your butt WITHOUT an team ready to go.  Have fun becuase you thought it was totally useless to recuit anyone becuase it is an land war in asia afterall with no intelligence.

[quote]
I am sorry that you think it's bad writing cause clues weren't written out, but then people would be like... "bioware, this isn't an sucide mission if I know where the hell i'm going, who I'm facing and what tactic deployment I need."
[/quote]
There weren't any clues to write out.
[/quote]

Thanks for agreeing with me on this point then. There was plenty of clues, as clues are speculation is it not? Refer to my post up above about intelligence. In the end, I am kindof disapointed that your basically saying bioware should spell everything out for you and make it clear. A little mystery never killed anyone... usually.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 11 avril 2010 - 10:45 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Dudeman315 wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Dudeman315 wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...


Another example to reinforce Shepard's relevance to the plot is at the end of the game. If Shepard dies, you won't get your save to ME3. Well, this is speculation but I will say it again. You can assume the reapers came and obliterated all life on the galaxy if you have the end where Shepard dies.

Or Cerberus just rebuilds shepard again if you keep the base intact.  Or there is enough to recover from the explosion, etc.

Errr, if this was a possibility I'm pretty sure Bioware would let you import your save to ME3.

You don't know we can't until ME3 is released.  Anything else is just speculation and subject to change.

And now that I'm thinking about why wasn't Thane more sneaky.  I mean he joins you then fights like a front line fighter?? I thought he was supposed to be an assassin why would he face his enemies head on like that?

No it's not. Bioware has stated that if you get the end that Shepard dies you won't be able to import your save to ME3. Of course, they can change that, but until Bioware comes to the press and tell you can, this is a fact.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 11 avril 2010 - 10:44 .

[tonnactus]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

You going to need another vanguard on the next sweep in 50k years. Why not humans since we apparently killed a reaper.

No.The "reason" was the big genetic diversity of humans.Lol.The biggest junk i ever heared.Humans are the lifeform on earth with smallest genetic diversity.Older races with bigger population should have more,not less genetic diversity.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Hey Andrew, how the f*ck would you know you were signing up for a suicide mission if you didn't actually know anything about what you were signing up for at all?

Did Cerberus asign everyone cyanide capsules or something? Or did they give Shepard and a couple others copies of the script?

I mean they don't know anything about the enemy they are facing really, until they finally face them and when they are faced they die really easily.

I dunno about you but I'd feel a lot more tension and fear going into this thing if there was a large perceiveable threat involved in all of this. But since the collectors die so easily in combat I don't understand what people are so scurred of.

Plus you can totally like almost 1 shot the engame boss. LOL.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 11 avril 2010 - 11:17 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

You know Bucky,  I'd really like a response to my questions about ME1's plot instead of hearing all these snide remarks. Please? Just a little one? I promise I won't bite.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 11 avril 2010 - 11:17 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Ask a good question and I'll consider answering it.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

I believe I already did. I would suggest scrolling up.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 11 avril 2010 - 11:19 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

I did not ask what you believe.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

I did not ask what you believe.

Aww, now why do you need to act all bent? You had plenty of argument in you last page. You don't need to be shy around me. Come on, respond to the points and I promise we'll have a damn good time.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Dude I am responding to your points: you don't make good ones. Read my posts again understand what I'm saying, maybe use a dictionary and look up the definitions of the words I use, play the games again or something. Okay?

Honestly dude it's this god damn simple if you do not understand that Shepard is an active participant in ME1 and the story centers around him while he is completely passive and not a single one of his actions or choicies dictates how the plot of ME2 plays out you simply do not understand a single thing about storytelling and you do not understand what is being argued when we say Shepard is replaceable.

Pick up a book on simple narrative structure and character development, honestly this is storytelling 101 sort of stuff.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 11 avril 2010 - 11:27 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Dude I am responding to your points: you don't make good ones. Read my posts again understand what I'm saying, maybe use a dictionary and look up the definitions of the words I use, play the games again or something. Okay?

No, I'm afraid this won't do at all. I demand better from someone calling us fan boys. I will teach you proper format.
You see, you've responded to other people's points, providing examples from ME1 for why Shepard is irreplaceable. I provided examples of how he is replaceable in ME1. Now it is your turn to explain why I am wrong or provide another counter-example. Telling me "you're wrong" because I don't "make good points" reads like something written by a 5 year-old. Show me this astounding logic in your possession. Again, this is an important lession I take it upon myself to teach you.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 11 avril 2010 - 11:28 .