380 réponses à ce sujet

[RyuGuitarFreak]

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
LOL smudboy, tell me you're joking on these posts. Seriously. Are you
questioning Shepard's importance to humanity and the galaxy?
REALLY??????? I.E. for the game???? Have you played ME1? Have you payed attention to it?

I kid you not, good sir.

I'll quote you:

"How is Shepard a tactical genius?  How are they best humanity has to
offer?

How is Shepard a master at tactics?  How is ..."

Go play ME1 again. I give you an advice to pay attention at the parts that Sheppard is named the first human Spectre and at the end where he saves the galaxy from Sovereign.

And where do we see all these irreplaceable qualities in ME2?

I seem to recall a situation where this master of tactics recommends his ace pilot to "get in close" to finish off a rather easily attackable target, and nearly getting the entire ship destroyed in the process.

Well you should have gotten the upgrade guns then.

...

That's what happens with the upgrades.

Either way, we're talking about Shepard's irreplaceable genius tactics, not ship equipment.

The ship was already damaged, and how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down? No one does.

Not to mention it was SHEPARD who came to Garrus and said: "Hey, do you have some ideas for equipment who might help on the mission?"

[kraidy1117]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
LOL smudboy, tell me you're joking on these posts. Seriously. Are you
questioning Shepard's importance to humanity and the galaxy?
REALLY??????? I.E. for the game???? Have you played ME1? Have you payed attention to it?

I kid you not, good sir.

I'll quote you:

"How is Shepard a tactical genius?  How are they best humanity has to
offer?

How is Shepard a master at tactics?  How is ..."

Go play ME1 again. I give you an advice to pay attention at the parts that Sheppard is named the first human Spectre and at the end where he saves the galaxy from Sovereign.

And where do we see all these irreplaceable qualities in ME2?

I seem to recall a situation where this master of tactics recommends his ace pilot to "get in close" to finish off a rather easily attackable target, and nearly getting the entire ship destroyed in the process.

Well you should have gotten the upgrade guns then.

...

That's what happens with the upgrades.

Either way, we're talking about Shepard's irreplaceable genius tactics, not ship equipment.

The ship was already damaged, and how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down? No one does.

Not to mention it was SHEPARD who came to Garrus and said: "Hey, do you have some ideas for equipment who might help on the mission?"

Meh don't bother with Smudboy. He will argue even when he is showen to be wrong.

[wulf3n]

kraidy1117 wrote...
It would also cause alot of negative buzz for Bioware, they don't want that. 

tell me about it <_<, the slightest negative press, they go all sissy.

[kraidy1117]

wulf3n wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
It would also cause alot of negative buzz for Bioware, they don't want that. 

tell me about it <_<, the slightest negative press, they go all sissy.

All companys do, its part of buisness. If games where easy and did not take alot of time or money to make then I bet you ME2 would be alot diffrent, so would alot of games, but money and time contraints stop that from happining, also the people who work for bioware have a life and maybe a familly.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

kraidy1117 wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
LOL smudboy, tell me you're joking on these posts. Seriously. Are you
questioning Shepard's importance to humanity and the galaxy?
REALLY??????? I.E. for the game???? Have you played ME1? Have you payed attention to it?

I kid you not, good sir.

I'll quote you:

"How is Shepard a tactical genius?  How are they best humanity has to
offer?

How is Shepard a master at tactics?  How is ..."

Go play ME1 again. I give you an advice to pay attention at the parts that Sheppard is named the first human Spectre and at the end where he saves the galaxy from Sovereign.

And where do we see all these irreplaceable qualities in ME2?

I seem to recall a situation where this master of tactics recommends his ace pilot to "get in close" to finish off a rather easily attackable target, and nearly getting the entire ship destroyed in the process.

Well you should have gotten the upgrade guns then.

...

That's what happens with the upgrades.

Either way, we're talking about Shepard's irreplaceable genius tactics, not ship equipment.

The ship was already damaged, and how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down? No one does.

Not to mention it was SHEPARD who came to Garrus and said: "Hey, do you have some ideas for equipment who might help on the mission?"

Meh don't bother with Smudboy. He will argue even when he is showen to be wrong.

 Tell me about it. They guy sound like he didn't play the game. I'm gonna end this quote. Gotta sleep.

[Indoctrination]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Indoctrination wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

I still think ME2 is a better game, but I agree as an RPG it could use a few good ole' ME1 features.
But seriously, the armor and characters and are improved. What game have you been playing?

I don't know how you can argue that ME2's armour system is an improvement. ME1's system was a chore and just plain uncomfortable but at least it was meaningful. You can play all of ME2 without ever changing your armour and likely not notice the difference.

As for the characters, they have absolutely no relevence or connection to the main plot. Again, maybe I've just been spoiled by Dragon Age, but I just didn't like how ME2's characters are just accessories for Commander Shepard.

Mordin, Miri and jack want to have a talk with you. Those three are so connected to the main plot it's not even funny.

I disagree. The main plot points in Mass Effect 2 are finding out what the collectors are up to and stopping then stopping them. Miranda, Jack, and Mordin have pretty much no barring on this. You can play the entire game without using all 3 of them and not notice the difference plotwise. Why? Because they're all accessories. They're only relevent in things not related to the main plot, like their loyalty missions, and the like. In fact, Shepard could shoot all three of them in the face for no reason half way through the game and it wouldn't mean a thing to the main plot. They're dolls. The only one who might get a pass would be Mordin who has a few seconds of relevence like creating protection for the seeker swarms on Horizon.

I'd go into the example of how some Dragon Age characters are actually intimately attached to the main plot, but this isn't the DA:O forums, and I'm not going to start posting DA:O spoilers.

[smudboy]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Suicide mission: Shepard comes with the idea of the tech expert through the vents, he assigned the right people for the right jobs on the suicide mission (if you played right) and the biotic bubble idea is his.

Although I don't doubt that's Shepard's idea to put someone in the vents (which is after Jacob and Miranda describe and invent main plan of having two groups go in acting as distractions), I fail to see how putting someone through some vents is some irreplaceable, genius strategy.

And the biotic bubble seems to be Samara's (at least in the youtube video I'm watching), which implies if you don't get Samara, some other guy could come up with the plan...

[Indoctrination]

mosor wrote...

I don't really care about the leveling up. The only issue have an issue with ME2 is that the interactions with other characters is so superficial. I kinda liked the influence system they had in dragon age.

This brings up another good point. You can say every mean thing in the book to the characters in ME2, and they'll still follow you as the obediant little dolls that they are. If you do that to Dragon Age characters (with the exception of Sten who likes being picked on), they will take offense, and their opinion of you will actually drop.

[Onyx Jaguar]

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Suicide mission: Shepard comes with the idea of the tech expert through the vents, he assigned the right people for the right jobs on the suicide mission (if you played right) and the biotic bubble idea is his.

Although I don't doubt that's Shepard's idea to put someone in the vents (which is after Jacob and Miranda describe and invent main plan of having two groups go in acting as distractions), I fail to see how putting someone through some vents is some irreplaceable, genius strategy.

And the biotic bubble seems to be Samara's (at least in the youtube video I'm watching), which implies if you don't get Samara, some other guy could come up with the plan...

No its Shepards.  Samara just says it would work.  If she's not there Jack says it will work.

[kraidy1117]

Indoctrination wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Indoctrination wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

I still think ME2 is a better game, but I agree as an RPG it could use a few good ole' ME1 features.
But seriously, the armor and characters and are improved. What game have you been playing?

I don't know how you can argue that ME2's armour system is an improvement. ME1's system was a chore and just plain uncomfortable but at least it was meaningful. You can play all of ME2 without ever changing your armour and likely not notice the difference.

As for the characters, they have absolutely no relevence or connection to the main plot. Again, maybe I've just been spoiled by Dragon Age, but I just didn't like how ME2's characters are just accessories for Commander Shepard.

Mordin, Miri and jack want to have a talk with you. Those three are so connected to the main plot it's not even funny.

I disagree. The main plot points in Mass Effect 2 are finding out what the collectors are up to and stopping then stopping them. Miranda, Jack, and Mordin have pretty much no barring on this. You can play the entire game without using all 3 of them and not notice the difference plotwise. Why? Because they're all accessories. They're only relevent in things not related to the main plot, like their loyalty missions, and the like. In fact, Shepard could shoot all three of them in the face for no reason half way through the game and it wouldn't mean a thing to the main plot. They're dolls. The only one who might get a pass would be Mordin who has a few seconds of relevence like creating protection for the seeker swarms on Horizon.

I'd go into the example of how some Dragon Age characters are actually intimately attached to the main plot, but this isn't the DA:O forums, and I'm not going to start posting DA:O spoilers.

No there are not, only three DAO characters are importent to the main plot, and it's poseable to have her dead during the game. I like Leliana but she is not needed for the game. Only Alistair and Morrigan are needed, thats it. Oghren is importent for the side story with the Golems but not for the main story, Shale, Sten and Zev are not importent at all and just more party members.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 10 avril 2010 - 05:35 .

[kraidy1117]

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Suicide mission: Shepard comes with the idea of the tech expert through the vents, he assigned the right people for the right jobs on the suicide mission (if you played right) and the biotic bubble idea is his.

Although I don't doubt that's Shepard's idea to put someone in the vents (which is after Jacob and Miranda describe and invent main plan of having two groups go in acting as distractions), I fail to see how putting someone through some vents is some irreplaceable, genius strategy.

And the biotic bubble seems to be Samara's (at least in the youtube video I'm watching), which implies if you don't get Samara, some other guy could come up with the plan...

Funny because in my game Shepard asked Samara if a Biotic bubble would work and in my game Shepard was the one who came up with the plan for someone going into stealth.

[smudboy]

kraidy1117 wrote...
The ship was already damaged, and how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down? No one does.

So attacking a massive spaceship might not cause it to explode?  Okay.  I guess.  (Watches Normandy SR1 explode...)

Either way, argument after the fact.

The first attack hit them just fine. I fail to see the point of "getting in close to finish them off" has any bearing, or "irreplaceable tactical genius" here.

[kraidy1117]

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
The ship was already damaged, and how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down? No one does.

So attacking a massive spaceship might not cause it to explode?  Okay.  I guess.  (Watches Normandy SR1 explode...)

Either way, argument after the fact.

The first attack hit them just fine. I fail to see the point of "getting in close to finish them off" has any bearing, or "irreplaceable tactical genius" here.

Seeing as they had to go that way, do you think Shepard has magic and can teleport him self into the base?

[smudboy]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Suicide mission: Shepard comes with the idea of the tech expert through the vents, he assigned the right people for the right jobs on the suicide mission (if you played right) and the biotic bubble idea is his.

Although I don't doubt that's Shepard's idea to put someone in the vents (which is after Jacob and Miranda describe and invent main plan of having two groups go in acting as distractions), I fail to see how putting someone through some vents is some irreplaceable, genius strategy.

And the biotic bubble seems to be Samara's (at least in the youtube video I'm watching), which implies if you don't get Samara, some other guy could come up with the plan...

No its Shepards.  Samara just says it would work.  If she's not there Jack says it will work.

No.  Watch it again.

Modifié par smudboy, 10 avril 2010 - 05:40 .

[smudboy]

dblp

Modifié par smudboy, 10 avril 2010 - 05:40 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

No, don't pick that option

[kraidy1117]

smudboy wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Suicide mission: Shepard comes with the idea of the tech expert through the vents, he assigned the right people for the right jobs on the suicide mission (if you played right) and the biotic bubble idea is his.

Although I don't doubt that's Shepard's idea to put someone in the vents (which is after Jacob and Miranda describe and invent main plan of having two groups go in acting as distractions), I fail to see how putting someone through some vents is some irreplaceable, genius strategy.

And the biotic bubble seems to be Samara's (at least in the youtube video I'm watching), which implies if you don't get Samara, some other guy could come up with the plan...

No its Shepards.  Samara just says it would work.  If she's not there Jack says it will work.

No.  Watch it again.

Um you do know that in order to say anything, you should use all the dialog in the tree..... it's poseable for Shepard to ask her if a Biotic shield can work.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 10 avril 2010 - 05:43 .

[Indoctrination]

Halmiriliath wrote...

Indoctrination wrote...

ME2 is simply lacking many of the RPG elements that made the first Mass Effect so rich. For example, in the first game many of the main plot missions have their own full sub-plots which make them interesting. You're on the mission to help your Saren investigation, but you get caught up in something bigger along the way, and the characters you meet become involved. Feros has you storming in, helping some colonists fight of a Geth attack. Then you explore the colony for a bit and chat up the colonists. Then you continue on your mission, fighting through the Geth, meet the Exogeni employees, chat them up for a bit, and learn some more about what's going on. Eventually you find out about the Thorian, mind control, etc. Feros is like the perfect model of what the format of a main plot world should be.

Now let's look at pretty much every main plot mission in ME2. "Shepard, there's this bad dude out there that I think you should recruit for your team. Go and fight your way through a giant flood of mercenaries to find him."
And when that's not the case, it's "Shepard, the Collector's are up to no good. Go fight your way through dozens of collectors for an hour or so to show them who's the boss."

Almost all of the ME2 missions feel like something out of a generic shooter. It feels like there's a bare minimal plot there because even shooters are expected to have basic minimal plots these days. These aren't things I should be saying about an RPG. I don't understand how the scenario writers could have allowed this to happen. There was so much potential too. Like with Samara's mission there was a murder sub-plot for a whole 5 minutes. This should have been the main sub-plot of the entire mission. Ideally, it would have been explore, talk to people about the murder, go and fight the oblogatory giant swarm of mercs, explore the murder some more, rinse and repeat until it becomes clear that the murder must have been done by one of a few suspects. Then throw in a nice plot twist. That would have been a good mission. Instead it's talk about the murder and Samara for 5 minutes, fight the mercs for an hour, recruit Samara. It feels completely soulless.

I sincerely hope that Mass Effect 3 brings back the RPG-goodness that made the first Mass Effect such a legendary game. That means sub-plots that matter within missions that consist of more than just fighting a giant horde of mercs. If BioWare takes the RPG aspects of ME1 and combines them with the improved shooter aspects of ME2, then ME3 will truly be the best game in the series.

A lot of very interesting and valid points, and I too would have liked to have seen complaints from squad members if they didn't like the direction you're taking, as well as consequences for having disagreements with them. However, I just wanted to pick up on the idea of plots and sub-plots within missions.  There were indeed interesting sub-plots within Feros and Noveria with ExoGeni, Anoleis, Quinn etc. and also upon arrival at the Citadel in the first Mass Effect, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the sub-plots in Mass Effect 2, which added layers of depth and backstory to the overall plot direction. Three in particular that are worth emphasising are: the Genophage sub-plot in Mordin's loyalty mission; Quarian politics regarding the Geth on the Migrant Fleet (in which you become quite an active participant); and the decision to rewrite or destroy the heretics on Legion's mission. Now I know it isn't a sub-plot in Legion's mission, but Legion's mission is effectively a sub-plot of the main mission and thus qualifies in my mind.

I'd also be wary of dismissing  the lack of depth or plot in the missions in Mass Effect 2, and feel that your summary of them in the second quoted paragraph is slightly unfair. Most things can be simplified down to such levels, but will always end up over-simplifying and failing to acknowledge its merits or depth, so I don't really think such an argument is applicable. I personally found a great deal of depth in some of the missions, while others could very well be improved upon. Given also that an 'RPG' means different things to different people depending on which aspects you'd emphasise, I'd be interested (and grateful) if you could elaborate on what would have made Mass Effect 2 more of an RPG to you beyond more sub-plots, greater squad interaction/independence and better armour customisation, or are those the main over-arching issues for you?

I'll concede that a lot of the loyalty missions are pretty fun. It's too bad that all of the mandatory missions couldn't be like those. As for "dismissing the lack of depth or plot", if you feel that "5-10 minutes of plot, 50 minutes of shooting mercenaries) is a poor description of Samara's mission, you're more than welcome to try and give a different description of it. I don't see how you could, when that's the literal truth, but don't let that stop you.:innocent:


What would have made ME2 more of an RPG for me? Aside from the big issues I've been mentioning, there's always the little things. Characters having dialogue with each other while you're on a mission, a deeper leveling/talent system, bigger side goals with huge rewards for people willing to work for them (think of some of the really old RPGs where you'd have that one amazing sword or armour in a shop that would cost a fortune to purchase), stuff like that. Basically what would make it a more worthy RPG would be to have more meaningful features that existed outside of fighting giant hordes of mercs.

[smudboy]

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
The ship was already damaged, and how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down? No one does.

So attacking a massive spaceship might not cause it to explode?  Okay.  I guess.  (Watches Normandy SR1 explode...)

Either way, argument after the fact.

The first attack hit them just fine. I fail to see the point of "getting in close to finish them off" has any bearing, or "irreplaceable tactical genius" here.

Seeing as they had to go that way, do you think Shepard has magic and can teleport him self into the base?

Had to go what way?  They were attacking the Collector Cruiser, and they did just fine with the first shot.

Shepard doesn't need magic or be able to teleport into a base.  Unless you think crash landing a working ship is the "irreplaceable, tactical genius" maneuver, and Shepard could predict this.  Oh wait, you don't think that, since you said above "how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down?"  So, I have no idea what point you're making here.

[smudboy]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Um you do know that in order to say anything, you should use all the dialog in the tree..... it's poseable for Shepard to ask her if a Biotic shield can work.

Even if there is a dialog option, the fact that someone else can come up with the idea proves that Shepard's "irrefutable, genius tactics", aren't needed.

[kraidy1117]

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Um you do know that in order to say anything, you should use all the dialog in the tree..... it's poseable for Shepard to ask her if a Biotic shield can work.

Even if there is a dialog option, the fact that someone else can come up with the idea proves that Shepard's "irrefutable, genius tactics", aren't needed.

No that means your Shepard is, not mine. My Shepard is a tactical genus because I was the one who came up with the ideas and stuff.

[kraidy1117]

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
The ship was already damaged, and how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down? No one does.

So attacking a massive spaceship might not cause it to explode?  Okay.  I guess.  (Watches Normandy SR1 explode...)

Either way, argument after the fact.

The first attack hit them just fine. I fail to see the point of "getting in close to finish them off" has any bearing, or "irreplaceable tactical genius" here.

Seeing as they had to go that way, do you think Shepard has magic and can teleport him self into the base?

Had to go what way?  They were attacking the Collector Cruiser, and they did just fine with the first shot.

Shepard doesn't need magic or be able to teleport into a base.  Unless you think crash landing a working ship is the "irreplaceable, tactical genius" maneuver, and Shepard could predict this.  Oh wait, you don't think that, since you said above "how did he know that the Collectors ship explosion would take them down?"  So, I have no idea what point you're making here.

The ship was right in front of the base or did you think that big rock base was just a distraction?

[smudboy]

kraidy1117 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Um you do know that in order to say anything, you should use all the dialog in the tree..... it's poseable for Shepard to ask her if a Biotic shield can work.

Even if there is a dialog option, the fact that someone else can come up with the idea proves that Shepard's "irrefutable, genius tactics", aren't needed.

No that means your Shepard is, not mine. My Shepard is a tactical genus because I was the one who came up with the ideas and stuff.

No, you're missing the point. The fact that OTHER people, aside from Shepard, can think up the SAME strategy, proves that Shepard's tactics, genius or whatnot, are replaceable.

[Indoctrination]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Indoctrination wrote...

As for the characters, they have absolutely no relevence or connection to the main plot. Again, maybe I've just been spoiled by Dragon Age, but I just didn't like how ME2's characters are just accessories for Commander Shepard.

I had to answer this. Seriously, how they are not connected to the main plot if your Shepard's SURVIVAL and by this saying this his PRESENCE in ME3 are connected to your squad effiency and loyalty.

Like I said before, the characters are accessories. They're pretty much talking guns. They have absolutely no purpose in the game than to act as weapons for Shepard. If you want to see characters with an interest in the plot, go play the Landsmeet in Dragon Age.

[wulf3n]

kraidy1117 wrote...
The ship was right in front of the base or did you think that big rock base was just a distraction?

but Shepard could have finished off the collector ship from a distance, then landed at the collector base. instead he risked killing everyone on board the normandy, before the mission had even really started.