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[Zaisha_temp]

Jedi Sensei wrote...

sagequeen wrote...the weird thing is i have a hard time with the fact that they aren't really alive, not really choosing.

The re-written Heretics, or the Geth in general?

Legion states that there is a non-zero probability that the re-written Heretics would come to accept Sovereign's control again, so they surely still have 'free-will.'

This is the exact reason why I choose re-write as the moral option: The fact that they (or at least some of them) might decide that their old way was best means that they retain their free will, you just give them some enforced psychotherapy/deprogramming, like we do in RL with some mentally disturbed criminals and ex cult members. (it's just that the Geth method sounds a whole lot more efficient/effective)

Of course I'll still kill any Geth that choose to go back to the Reapers in ME3, but with free will comes the freedom to accept the consequences of your choices.

[Nu-Nu]

Well, I thought that maybe the heretics may know something about the reapers, a weakness or their plans. As well as strengthening the geth, I hope they become my allies against the fight against the reapers. I think the quarians are their real main threat, so if them or anyone else tries to hack them, I'll hopefully be there to stop them.



As for the cure, I'll only use it if Wrex is alive. I think he'll lead the krogan on the right path, otherwise I wouldn't use the cure. I think what we gain from Wrex is numbers but what we could lose out is a weapon seeing as the krogan scientist has to change from developing weapons without Wrex, to improving life with Wrex.



As for the rachni queen, the fact that she wanted us to stop the lost rachnis was enough to convince me she's a goodie. Whether the reapers will idoctrinate them and turn them bad like before is another matter, but hopefully I'll get a chance to stop that from happening.

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Save the rachni queen? sure. I trusted her, actually, but mostly, I'm not about to annihilate a species. Even if there are consequence, it seems the right thing to do is give her a chance (naiive, perhaps, but right)

Yeah, innocent people may die in the hundreds of thousands or even millions but to hell with them.

This coming from the guy who kept the collector's base.  Your gambling with just as many lives.  TIM is going to build another human reaper that's for sure, because he uses the phrase "at all costs".  Millions of lives are going to be sacrifed and TIM probaly thinks he can control it.  But there's no guarantee it will work for you and you'll be adding to an already overwhelming army.

Edit - I rather take my chances with the rachni's then with the collector's base.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 26 avril 2010 - 12:56 .

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...



This coming from the guy who kept the collector's base.  Your gambling with just as many lives.  TIM is going to build another human reaper that's for sure, because he uses the phrase "at all costs".  Millions of lives are going to be sacrifed and TIM probaly thinks he can control it.  But there's no guarantee it will work for you and you'll be adding to an already overwhelming army.

I rather take my chances with the geth then with the collector's base.

That's a pretty big assumption. In any case, millions to save billions is a pretty good deal.

Edit - And it's a pretty big assumption that you think the rachni will turn.  There's risk in all the decision, renegade or paragon, I'm just taking the ones I think are the less risks.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 26 avril 2010 - 12:54 .

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

And it's a pretty big assumption that you think the geth will turn.

Had you paid attention you would know that is not the basis of my argument.

That was a misplaced word, "Geth" should have read rachni.  Big assumption if you think the rachni will turn and hurt millions more people.

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

That was a misplaced word, "Geth" should have read rachni.  Big assumption if you think the rachni will turn and hurt millions more people.

No, it isn't. The rachni have a long history of doing just that and I have no reason to believe the queen I'm talking to is telling me the truth. Logically she would say anything to get out of her cell. After all, the survival of her species depends upon it.

Maybe, but I'm taking as much risks trusting her as you trust TIM.

[Icinix]

Re-wrote them, no question.



Sovereign used the Virus to turn them from their original path, re-writing them put them back on their original belief.

Prior to this, they stayed beyond the veil, and generally stayed out of peoples ways. (Keeping the quarian homeworld as a memorial until the creators return.) - Legions words.



They are still evolving and developing and in time they will probably branch off to different beliefs and ideas anyway.

The choice to do that should be their own. I don't see it as re-writing them, but undoing the original overwrite.

[OverlordNexas]

Shandepared wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

Maybe, but I'm taking as much risks trusting her as you trust TIM.

 

No, not really. TIM's track record doesn't at all compare to the Rachni's. His history primarily involves him helping humanity.

By murdering/performing deadly experiments on them 

[hangmans tree]

but her said that some OTHER sour song infected previous hive isnt a clue for you? For me its certain rachni were a device to weaken the galactic stability. Reapers ploy like many more to gain advantage, ripe fruits to fall in their maws or whatever. Free of influence, and communicative (previous hive couldnt be reasoned with) assures me I do the right thing hoping for coexistence.

Modifié par hangmans tree, 26 avril 2010 - 01:10 .

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

Maybe, but I'm taking as much risks trusting her as you trust TIM.

 

No, not really. TIM's track record doesn't at all compare to the Rachni's. His history primarily involves him helping humanity.

Have you played me1 and see what they do to their own kind?  It wouldn't just be hell for aliens if cereberus came out on top, it'll be hell for humans too. 

To trust TIM with that kind of power, you could end up dooming everyone.  His true motives are not clear enough, he could just be acting to get what he wants.  Giving him the base is like pontentially giving a tyrant nuclear missiles. 

[Wuxia]

hangmans tree wrote...

but her said that some OTHER sour song infected previous hive isnt a clue for you? For me its certain rachni were a device to weaken the galactic stability. Reapers ploy like many more to gain advantage, ripe fruits to fall in their maws or whatever. Free of influence, and communicative (previous hive couldnt be reasoned with) assures me I do the right thing hoping for coexistence.

  Exactly. Allowing the Rachni to become extinct because they were indoctrinated doesn't make any sense. That's like saying all Turians should be killed because Saren was able to be indoctrinated by Sovereign.

 As for the Geth: I still don't get it. I can't remember it saying anywhere in the games that Sovereign reprogrammed some of the geth which resulted in the Heretics (reference?). All I remember from the game is that the true geth think 2 > 1 while the Heretics think 2 < 3 because of a difference in their base programming. All I can assume is that the two groups have different versions of the software created by the Quarians - so the Heretics are v1.01 while the true geth were updated with v1.02 before the war or something. If it's like that then releasing the virus is basically just giving them a software update which enables them to process the logic differently and form a different consensus? In which case I see nothing wrong with 'updating' them. Otherwise the Geth are way too confusing; how could the Heretics exist in the first place if they weren't already separate from the Geth to begin with? Legion says that all programs must come to the same conclusion and form a consensus for action to occur - if the Heretics and Geth were one and contributed to the same 'mind' nothing would have happened.

Modifié par Banon Loire, 26 avril 2010 - 01:34 .

[Sajuro]

Also in ME2 if you saved the Rachni you'll hear reports of people encountering their ships from a distance and the ships just zooming off without attacking, implying that the Rachni aren't naturally murderous. They also help the Asari who relays the message to you on Illium.

As for the geth, I chose to blow it up since I thought that was the better option but then I reloaded and chose to overwrite them since ME2's charm/intimidate system goes purely by your paragon an renegade bars.

[Brako Shepard]

sagequeen wrote...

curious as to your thoughts.

My wife and I disagreed on the Krogan issue. Whilst we both adore Wrex, the simple fact is the Krogan are just too powerful as a mass. Sure Wrex could keep them in line, but eventually another Krogan will cause an uprise. If Wrex gets defeated, that would be hell for the galaxy.

The Geth choice however didn't feel like that much of an issue to me. At the end of the day they are machines, albeit with a very stong AI. I would rather wipe there memories and allow them to try and build themselves up again, and hope that Quarians and Geth can finally share peace together...than wipe an entire race out, machine or not.

This is what BioWare are best at though in my opinion. Actual moral choices. It could be a case that saving or killing could both have a negative impact no matter what happens, but its the choice you have to give them the chance that matters.

Both Krogan and Geth have a very good comparison to the Afghans. When the higher powers needed them they were all best friends. Then when the higher powers ditched them and left them to die, they were surprised when the Afghans attacked. Afghan, Krogan and Geth all have the potential to be a proud nation, its just a matter of who they have to guide them.

[Nu-Nu]

Brako Shepard wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

curious as to your thoughts.

My wife and I disagreed on the Krogan issue. Whilst we both adore Wrex, the simple fact is the Krogan are just too powerful as a mass. Sure Wrex could keep them in line, but eventually another Krogan will cause an uprise. If Wrex gets defeated, that would be hell for the galaxy.

The Geth choice however didn't feel like that much of an issue to me. At the end of the day they are machines, albeit with a very stong AI. I would rather wipe there memories and allow them to try and build themselves up again, and hope that Quarians and Geth can finally share peace together...than wipe an entire race out, machine or not.

This is what BioWare are best at though in my opinion. Actual moral choices. It could be a case that saving or killing could both have a negative impact no matter what happens, but its the choice you have to give them the chance that matters.

Both Krogan and Geth have a very good comparison to the Afghans. When the higher powers needed them they were all best friends. Then when the higher powers ditched them and left them to die, they were surprised when the Afghans attacked. Afghan, Krogan and Geth all have the potential to be a proud nation, its just a matter of who they have to guide them.

Yeah but there is a point in Tuchanka where a Krogan, I think the scout gaurd, says that they're willing to ditch old traditions in order to survive.  Meaning they'll be willing to give up their tradition of violence if it increases their survival.  The salarians blame themselves for arming the Krogan when they were not mature enough to handle it, I think they'll reach a mature level in me3.  I think Wrex and his message will get passed on and won't disappear when he goes.  There will always be a group, no matter what race, that will be violent but you can't condem them all because of that.

[hangmans tree]

Legion explain to Shep the "a house divided" problem. Soverign took advantage of some programming loop which opened a door for a new way for geth - to worship The Old Machines as Gods. Reprogramming is like returning them to their own/original path, coz they didnt choose this, it was implemented, Legion says that Geth future was to sieze by their own means, not "given" by The Ancient Ones.

After correcting the fault Soverign created heretics still have a free will as to follow or abandon their ways (kill all fleshies that is). After returning to The Geth both will be stronger on their experience an perspective ground - after sharing data that is...



I hope I make sense , after 8 hours of work I tend to be a little debilitated :/