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Executing NPCs.


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#51
BaladasDemnevanni

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Shandepared wrote...

That's not much consolation when he's comparing me to Saren and then pointing a gun at me. Considering the kind of family Wrex comes from I'm not sure that being considered among them (or even slightly above them) means very much.


Considering you are pointing a proverbial gun at the survival of the entire Krogan race, he is quite justified in pointing the gun at you. Killing Wrex is perfectly fine; I did it my first play through. In character, it is again fine for Shepard to think he is right for what he did. But out of character pretending that you are standing on some moral high ground is laughable. Everyone is simply acting out of self-interest.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 avril 2010 - 05:59 .


#52
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Nightwriter wrote...

Shand, this is like your relationship with everyone in the game.


I fancy myself more of a Saren like figure.

"Shepard? What are you doing here on Palaven? I wasn't expecting to find the Reapers here... the situation is bad."

"Don't worry, Garrus, I've got everything under control."

#53
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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


Considering you are pointing a proverbial gun at the survival of the entire Krogan race, he is quite justified in pointing the gun at you.


Sure, I'd do the same thing, only I'd be standing about three-hundred yards away with a scoped sniper rifle and I'd squeeze the trigger.


 

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

But out of character pretending that you are standing on some moral high ground is laughable.


No, it isn't. There is every justication for shooting somebody threatening to shoot you, as I explained. If that situation really happened you wouldn't know that you could intimidate or charm Wrex, you wouldn't know that he wasn't about to shoot you to death right then. Your life would be hanging on the balance and you'd have to be pretty goddamn ballsy to think that Wrex would pick you over his people.

Somebody points a gun at you and turns against your mission, you can shoot them and you do have the moral highground.

#54
Nightwriter

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Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shand, this is like your relationship with everyone in the game.


I fancy myself more of a Saren like figure.

"Shepard? What are you doing here on Palaven? I wasn't expecting to find the Reapers here... the situation is bad."

"Don't worry, Garrus, I've got everything under control."



So... a bit more like this then.

Posted Image

Got it.

#55
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Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shand, this is like your relationship with everyone in the game.


I fancy myself more of a Saren like figure.

"Shepard? What are you doing here on Palaven? I wasn't expecting to find the Reapers here... the situation is bad."

"Don't worry, Garrus, I've got everything under control."



So... a bit more like this then.

Posted Image

Got it.


There we go. Thank you.

#56
BaladasDemnevanni

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Shandepared wrote...

1. No, it isn't. There is every justication for shooting somebody threatening to shoot you, as I explained. If that situation really happened you wouldn't know that you could intimidate or charm Wrex, you wouldn't know that he wasn't about to shoot you to death right then. Your life would be hanging on the balance and you'd have to be pretty goddamn ballsy to think that Wrex would pick you over his people.

2. Somebody points a gun at you and turns against your mission, you can shoot them and you do have the moral highground.


1. You're right, there is justification for shooting some-one who is threatening to shoot you. There is also justification for shooting someone who is threatening your entire species with extinction. One species vs. one man?

Wrex is justified in shooting Shepard who is threatening to doom the Krogan.
Shepard is justified in shooting Wrex who is threatening to shoot him.

How does Shepard have the moral high ground in this?

2. Depends on the mission. Wrex signed on to stop Saren. I don't recall having him sign on the dotted line that he is willing to doom his people to annihilation. You've shown only that Shepard is justified in shooting Wrex. How is Wrex not justified in also killing Shepard? Hence, the moral highground.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 avril 2010 - 06:07 .


#57
Nightwriter

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Shandepard wrote...

There we go. Thank you.


I try.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 12 avril 2010 - 06:08 .


#58
HeyBlade789

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Daralii wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Give me the Bethesda system (Oblivion/Fallout 3): You can kill anyone unless they are essential to a future main mission. Bye bye, Turian councilor.


"Turian Councillor has been knocked unconcious"

Stop! You've violated the law!

....

Then pay with your blood!

*You have been expelled from the spectres, you must do some pointless boring mission to rejoin*

#59
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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

1. You're right, there is justification for shooting some-one who is threatening to shoot you. There is also justification for shooting someone who is threatening your entire species with extinction. One species vs. one man?


One man vs my mission. Wrex is the turncoat here.

If Wrex shoots Shepard and joins Saren he endangers the whole galaxy.

#60
BaladasDemnevanni

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Shandepared wrote...

One man vs my mission. Wrex is the turncoat here.

If Wrex shoots Shepard and joins Saren he endangers the whole galaxy.


You keep calling Wrex the turn-coat. You just agreed to doom an entire species to complete and utter extinction in-game, as I keep pointing out. You also committed yourself to this without even consulting Wrex, a friend and brother in arms. Wrex may have pulled out the gun, but I would say it was Shepard  who initiated this betrayal.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 avril 2010 - 06:14 .


#61
wizardryforever

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Shandepared wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

1. You're right, there is justification for shooting some-one who is threatening to shoot you. There is also justification for shooting someone who is threatening your entire species with extinction. One species vs. one man?


One man vs my mission. Wrex is the turncoat here.

If Wrex shoots Shepard and joins Saren he endangers the whole galaxy.



The only thing wrong with your argument (and correct me if I misunderstood) is that you didn't even try to talk him down, you just shot him.  Don't know about you, but I feel that shooting one's friends should be a last resort.  You know, after you've done everything else you can.

#62
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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


You keep calling Wrex the turn-coat. You just agreed to doom an entire species to complete and utter extinction...


Not for the first time in that game either.


BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You also committed yourself to this without even consulting Wrex, a friend and brother in arms.


It's not his choice. The base gets destroyed, period. We're not curing the genophage either. Period. He is not an equal, he is a subordinate.

wizardryforever wrote...

The only thing wrong with your argument (and correct me if I misunderstood) is that you didn't even try
to talk him down, you just shot him.  Don't know about you, but I feel
that shooting one's friends should be a last resort.  You know, after
you've done everything else you can.


I did try, but then he pulled a gun so I ended it before he shot me.

(Now if I had the means I might drawout the conversation a bit longer before Shepard shoots him, but I've got to work within the confines on the game)

Modifié par Shandepared, 12 avril 2010 - 06:21 .


#63
Nightwriter

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I don't think you should be able to necessarily kill anybody you want, but I think you should be able to punch anyone you want.

Anyone. Someone on the street. A councilor. Aria. Anybody. Just a sock 'em option. See what happens.

#64
Azint

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Nightwriter wrote...

I don't think you should be able to necessarily kill anybody you want, but I think you should be able to punch anyone you want.

Anyone. Someone on the street. A councilor. Aria. Anybody. Just a sock 'em option. See what happens.

It alternates to headbutting when on Tuchanka.

#65
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Shand, you are the most paranoid, jumpy, trigger-happy mofo I have ever met.

By your logic, Miranda should've justifiably shot you the second you met her, since you pulled a gun on her.

Poor Wrex is probably floating somewhere at he bottom of a culvert in your playthrough.

#66
BaladasDemnevanni

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Shandepared wrote...

It's not his choice. The base gets destroyed, period. We're not curing the genophage either. Period. He is not an equal, he is a subordinate.


And here's where I see a problem. You seem to equate command with "moral highground". You are not analyzing this as Wrex's friend, simply his commanding officer, which is fine, except for the fact that it is irrelevant. You being the Commanding Officer has nothing to do with possessing the moral high ground. Is someone acting immoral because they refuse to follow a direct order? Depending on what you order them to do, I would hardly think so.

I would say betraying your friend's trust could easily be considered immoral, especially given how strongly Wrex feels on the issue.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 avril 2010 - 06:29 .


#67
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Nightwriter wrote...

Shand, you are the most paranoid, jumpy, trigger-happy mofo I have ever met.

By your logic, Miranda should've justifiably shot you the second you met her, since you pulled a gun on her.


She could probably justify it, sure.  Though I don't think TIM would be very happy. Cops shoot people for the same reason.

#68
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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You are not analyzing this as Wrex's friend, simply his commanding officer, which is fine, except for the fact that it is irrelevant.


Shepard is his commanding officer first and anything else second. Were Shepard to shirk his duty as a commanding officer that would be a far great sin than his shooting Wrex to save the mission and the galaxy.

#69
Nightwriter

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Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shand, you are the most paranoid, jumpy, trigger-happy mofo I have ever met.

By your logic, Miranda should've justifiably shot you the second you met her, since you pulled a gun on her.


She could probably justify it, sure.  Though I don't think TIM would be very happy. Cops shoot people for the same reason.


Someone help me think of all the other times Shepard's pulled a gun on someone who would've shot him on sight by Shand's justice...

Let's see... Tali, Prazza and the gang, when you first meet them...

#70
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Nightwriter wrote...

Someone help me think of all the other times Shepard's pulled a gun on someone who would've shot him on sight by Shand's justice...

Let's see... Tali, Prazza and the gang, when you first meet them...


Again, either side could unleash hot lead and be totally justified in doing so. As with the above situation you mentioned the circumstances are not the same as the Wrex confrontation. None the less, it would be justified.

If I had the option to shoot Praza and his comrades you don't know that I wouldn't. Frankly, I wish that after seeing that they don't like Cerberus that my Shepard could decline the offer to work with Tali by actually stating, "Your people don't trust mine, this isn't going to work."

#71
BaladasDemnevanni

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Shandepared wrote...

Shepard is his commanding officer first and anything else second. Were Shepard to shirk his duty as a commanding officer that would be a far great sin than his shooting Wrex to save the mission and the galaxy.


Is it shirking his duty to consider the situation or care about his subordinates? Last I checked, Shepard commits to this operation like everyone is on-board with absolutely no problem. If Shepard let it reach to the point where Wrex felt the need to pull a gun, then he failed in his duty as a commanding officer, not the other way around. Fact of the matter is, Shepard betrayed Wrex first in not consulting him in how he felt about destroying the Genophage. Whether or not Shepard is the commanding officer doesn't matter. Command does not equal moral highground.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 avril 2010 - 06:36 .


#72
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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...



Is it shirking his duty to consider the situation or care about his subordinates?


If it means jeopardizing the mission, yes.

Shepard tried to reason with Wrex, and Wrex still pulled a gun on him. Shepard was never given the CHANCE to con**** with Wrex. As soon as Wrex heard the salarian plan he stormed off. Shepard went after him and WREX escalated the discussion.

#73
Nightwriter

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Shandepared wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You are not analyzing this as Wrex's friend, simply his commanding officer, which is fine, except for the fact that it is irrelevant.


Shepard is his commanding officer first and anything else second. Were Shepard to shirk his duty as a commanding officer that would be a far great sin than his shooting Wrex to save the mission and the galaxy.


You've really got a hard-on for this whole I AM THE COMMANDER thing, huh?

Well, a good commander listens  to his men. He tries to see things from all sides and perspectives, and to be understanding and fair.

Now, Wrex was a good guy whose people were dying. You know for a fact that the mission will allow you to talk him down calmly without bloodshed. The mission won't be compromised.

If you knew that and didn't choose to try to make that happen, don't you think that's being a bad commander?

#74
BaladasDemnevanni

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Shandepared wrote...

Shepard tried to reason with Wrex, and Wrex still pulled a gun on him. Shepard was never given the CHANCE to con**** with Wrex. As soon as Wrex heard the salarian plan he stormed off. Shepard went after him and WREX escalated the discussion.


Okay, that's fine. I accept this as valid reasoning. But now I have a different issue: how is Wrex not justified in pulling a gun on Shepard?

#75
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Nightwriter wrote...


Well, a good commander listens  to his men. He tries to see things from all sides and perspectives, and to be understanding and fair.


Indeed,
and a good commander also doesn't tolerate his subordinates pulling a
gun on him. If Kaidan or Ashley had done that the most lenient thing
that would happen to them would be court martial followed by a lengthy
prison sentence. You don't threaten your CO and expect to walk away
from it unscathed.

Nightwriter wrote...

You know
for a fact that the mission will allow you to talk him down calmly
without bloodshed. The mission won't be compromised.


No
I don't because I don't meta-game when I make these decisions. My
Shepard has no idea that he is a fictional person inhabiting a fiction
universe. He can't see the dialog wheel either.


BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Okay, that's fine. I accept this as valid reasoning. But now I have a different issue: how is Wrex not justified in pulling a gun on Shepard?


He hasn't said more than a few sentences to Shepard. I did this only a few weeks ago. Shepard walks up and tells him to calm down, that he isn't the enemy here and that Saren is. Wrex gets pissed and says that he isn't so sure that Shepard isn't the enemy. Then Shepard gets one more line "I shouldn't need to explalin that to you, Wrex!" (or another, but I forget how the paragon/renegade lines are spoken), and then Wrex pulls his gun. That's it. The exchange lasts maybe ten seconds and Wrex points his gun at Shepard while also telling him that he's not going to allow the base to be destroyed, that he's "through with you."

Wrex is really goddamn lucky if Shepard is trusting enough to lower his weapon and then charm/intimidate him.

As I said, Wrex escalates the situation, not Shepard.