107 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth_Ultima]

Sajuro wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Give me the Bethesda system (Oblivion/Fallout 3): You can kill anyone unless they are essential to a future main mission. Bye bye, Turian councilor.

"Turian Councillor has been knocked unconcious"

Turian Councillor gets back up: ah yes, -air quotes- shooting me.

You beat me to it.

Modifié par Darth_Ultima, 12 avril 2010 - 06:52 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

He hasn't said more than a few sentences to Shepard. I did this only a few weeks ago. Shepard walks up and tells him to calm down, that he isn't the enemy here and that Saren is. Wrex gets pissed and says that he isn't so sure that Shepard isn't the enemy. Then Shepard gets one more line "I shouldn't need to explalin that to you, Wrex!" (or another, but I forget how the paragon/renegade lines are spoken), and then Wrex pulls his gun. That's it. The exchange lasts maybe ten seconds and Wrex points his gun at Shepard while also telling him that he's not going to allow the base to be destroyed, that he's "through with you."

Wrex is really goddamn lucky if Shepard is trusting enough to lower his weapon and then charm/intimidate him.

As I said, Wrex escalates the situation, not Shepard.

Yes, and if you actually play the situation again, you'll actually understand that one way or another, Paragon or Renegade, Shepard basically asks Wrex to destroy the cure. Ergo, he is asking Wrex to doom his own people to  very probable annihilation. Shepard is justified in shooting Wrex, fine. How is Wrex not also justified in pulling a gun on Shepard, who is asking him to turn against his own species and who is planning to blow up the cure? Explain this to me, if you'd be so kind.

The situation has been escalated the minute Shepard commits to blowing up the base.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 avril 2010 - 06:56 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Indeed, and a good commander also doesn't tolerate his subordinates pulling a gun on him. If Kaidan or Ashley had done that the most lenient thing that would happen to them would be court martial followed by a lengthy prison sentence. You don't threaten your CO and expect to walk away from it unscathed.

Wrex is a merc and you were essentially killing all hope for his race. I NEVER got the impression Wrex was there as your official subordinate. Like I said, he was a merc, and he was tagging along.

Did you ever have a discussion with Wrex where you outlined he was to follow your orders? That he was strictly under your command? That you expected him to follow you exactly like Ashley or Kaidan would? Or was it a much more unofficial chain of command you had going on there?

Shandepard wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You know for a fact that the mission will allow you to talk him down calmly without bloodshed. The mission won't be compromised.

No don't because I don't meta-game when I make these decisions. My Shepard has no idea that he is a fictional person inhabiting a fiction universe. He can't see the dialog wheel either.

NON-METAGAMING: An excuse to do stupid and pointless sh*t since time immemorial.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 12 avril 2010 - 07:03 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The situation has been escalated the minute Shepard commits to blowing up the base.

Sounds like you're back pedaling to me.

Wrex isn't thinking clearly. He already knows the genophage isn't what is dooming his people. He's acting rashly and threatening to kill someone who has fought along side him loyally and just came over to try and calm him down.

It is the Genophage which is responsible for causing 1/ 1,000 Krogan births to occur successfully. I think it's pretty clear this is what's dooming his people. You are suggesting that he willingly agree to aid you in destroying that cure. If Wrex wants to protect his own people from extinction, explain to me how he lacks the moral highground.

This is not back-pedaling. Your argument is that Shepard has the moral high-ground. You've shown why he is justified in killing Wrex. Now show how Wrex is not justified in killing Shepard. That is a necessary distinction for 'moral highground'.

[Halmiriliath]

Shandepared wrote...

He hasn't said more than a few sentences to Shepard. I did this only a few weeks ago. Shepard walks up and tells him to calm down, that he isn't the enemy here and that Saren is. Wrex gets pissed and says that he isn't so sure that Shepard isn't the enemy. Then Shepard gets one more line "I shouldn't need to explalin that to you, Wrex!" (or another, but I forget how the paragon/renegade lines are spoken), and then Wrex pulls his gun. That's it. The exchange lasts maybe ten seconds and Wrex points his gun at Shepard while also telling him that he's not going to allow the base to be destroyed, that he's "through with you."

Wrex is really goddamn lucky if Shepard is trusting enough to lower his weapon and then charm/intimidate him.

As I said, Wrex escalates the situation, not Shepard.

My apologies if I'm throwing a swerveball into this argument here, but to add to some of Baladas's questions, I would pose another: why are you so sure that Wrex intends to use his gun?

If we try to see it from Wrex's perspective, he's dealing with the fate of his species here and conflicted loyalty between the survival of the Krogan and a mission under the leadership of a commander who has done 'more for [him] than his family ever did'. To me this implies that Shepard is pretty much one of his closest friends, and as such I interpret him pulling his weapon in a slightly different way. I view it as his way of showing his frustration and the seriousness with which he views the consequences of deciding either way - almost attention-seeking, if you will. Just because he pulls it out at you, it does not necessarily mean he intends to use it. If he can be talked into lowering his firearm in a relatively short space of time, one could infer that it was indeed a means of attracting attention to the conflict in his mind - an outward manifestation of an inward problem - and that he was never sure about his intention to use it. Of course, Shepard would have to be very trusting and understanding of Wrex to risk his/her life on his belief that Wrex wouldn't shoot, but understanding one's own troops is essential to being a succesful commander, as Nightwriter said.  

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 12 avril 2010 - 07:23 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

NON-METAGAMING: An excuse to do stupid and pointless sh*t since time immemorial.

You should try role-playing sometime, you might get even more out of the game that way. Anyway, I'm sorry I killed your waifu.

I do. Often. I love it.

But I don't go overboard with it.

If you never ever metagame, every single playthrough you make is going to be exactly the same. And that limits my enjoyment of the game needlessly.

[Collider]

If you never ever metagame, every single playthrough you make is going to be exactly the same.

????

If you roleplay as a character you've imagined, this is not true. Killing Wrex because he pointed a gun at you can be simple self defense. Not to mention if apparently you aren't charming or intimidating in points enough, Wrex has to die either way (unless you did his Family Armor mission).

[Nightwriter]

Lol. I meant, experimenting with different outcomes (which is always fun) depends upon having foreknowledge of the outcomes you have already explored before.

[AntiChri5]

@shand:



Earlier you admitted to first sparing Wrex ( on an earlier playthrough, I believe) but deciding to kill him after reading some posts and articles. That is Metagaming.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

When you talk to Wrex about the genophage he makes it clear that what is dooming the krogan is their voilent culture. They won't listen to reason and instead insist on fighting, thus they can't replenish their numbers. Wrex knows that if they are cured by the genophage the krogan will remain violent, will cause trouble again, and will probably get wiped out. Secondly, he knows that Saren is just using these krogan. Perhaps he also believes Shepard about the Reapers at this point as well.

In the end, Wrex is threatening to murder the good man who has stood by his side and to accomplish nothing for his people. He will become Saren's pet, and the krogan will become a horde again.

If you think that starting the Krogan Rebellions II is the moral highground then I don't think we can reach any kind of understanding. Also, as I stated before, Wrex is pulling a gun on Shepard un-provoked. He is not giving reason a chance, he's not waiting for any alternatives.

(albeit there is some weakness in the narrative here. You'd think that at least SOMEBODY woudl say, "Maybe we can destroy the base but save the research." I don't know that I'd choose that option, but the topic should come up regardless)

Well, at this point I suppose I'll have to concede. Your points are logical and well-founded and it would be pointless for me to continue taking a contrary position. Thank you for the discussion.

[Nightwriter]

You can't kill all people at first sign of hostility, Shand. Which is essentially what you do.



People are hostile all the time. Call it human nature. If you don't allow for that you're going to have a lot of dead people on your hands.



You will be Commander of the Dead. I christen thee thus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

One thing I really enjoyed in ME1 was the choice I was given in lots of conversations.

My favorite option and one that I took every time as a renegade  was to shoot the NPC.

Now I really enjoyed the interupt system but I found that there wasnt half as many renegade options as I would like. And on top of this there is near to no NPCs that you can choose to kill from the dialogue wheel.

I would like to see the option to kill NPCs off be as widespread in ME3 as they were in ME1. Remember the shooting Wrex moment?
 
Would anyone else like to see this aspect of ME1 used more in the next game?

ABSOLUTELY!

[Collider]

This isn't just a sign of hostility, night. It's someone pointing a gun at you unprovoked. One can be hostile with words, but pointing a gun at someone is different. Police officers are told to shoot when someone with a gun is pointing at them or someone else. It can save lives.

[Halmiriliath]

Shandepared wrote...

Halmiriliath wrote...

why are you so sure that Wrex intends to use his gun?

I'm not, but I think it is possible that he does. I would not be the first friend Wrex had tried to kill either, and for a lot less! I do see it from Wrex's perspective and that is why I wouldn't want to gamble with whether or not he means business.

It may just be attention seeking, but when you attention seek by pointing a gun at somebody and adamantly refusing to allow them to continue doing their job then you have no one to blame when you get shot in the face.

If you want my honest opinion I, personally, doubt that Wrex would have shot Shepard. If he'd wanted to kill Shepard he'd have just drawn his weapon and kille him, not get into a standoff with him. However I can say this as a player who is safe, and not as the "real" person that Shepard would be were he to be there and have Wrex suddenly point a gun in his face.

Indeed. Distance allows us to condemn or back split-second decisions, but fortunately Mass Effect allows us time to think through our decisions before implementing them. Regarding attention seeking by pointing a gun at Shepard, I think it's the only real way he knows how to get people's attention. He's a Krogan - his upbringing, plus his career as a mercenary, would have instilled in him a sense that violence or the threat of it is the only way to get people's attention. But apart from that, I pretty much agree with what you say. I couldn't bring myself to kill Wrex, but I understand why you would from a strictly role-playing perspective.

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 12 avril 2010 - 08:12 .

[AntiChri5]

Shandepared wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

@shand:

Earlier you admitted to
first sparing Wrex ( on an earlier playthrough, I believe) but deciding
to kill him after reading some posts and articles. That is
Metagaming.

Yes, there is a degree of meta-gaming
involved when I decide to replay ME1 and try this out. When I got to the Wrex standoff this time I tried both outcomes and experimented with different dialog to see what happened. I wanted to make sure that Wrex's death was worth it because I loved how his cameo was handled in ME2. It was easily the best former team-mate reunion in the game

. However as I explained, long before I ever
decided to do this I had defended people who argued that shooting Wrex
was the more logical way to resolve the situation from an in-game
standpoint. I stand by that still, and in fact when I replayed ME1
recently and had this conversation I realized that shooting Wrex not
only gave me a more satisfying narrative, but it was also more
in-character for my Shepard.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Well, at this point I suppose I'll have to concede. Your points are logical and well-founded and it would be pointless for me to continue taking a contrary position. Thank you for the discussion.

Well I'm glad we achieved concensus. That doesn't happen to often.

Let me make it clear that I don't really blame Wrex for being so passionate about his people or for wanting to save them with the genophage cure. After all, he fears that if he doesn't they will go extinct anyway. If the situation was reversed I imagine my Shepard would do the same thing to save humanity, perhaps hoping that in the next war the humans would win.

Regardless, you can't pull a gun on somebody who is trying to talk you down and then play the victim card. (though in fairness if you approach Wrex with only renegade options you certainly aren't trying very hard to calm him down)

This basically.

The only thing i have taken exception to is that you said you had no other choice. When i made a save file to import Wrexless i made sure not to get his armour and have ****e persuasion skills so i literally did not have a choice. I am pretty sure the only way to kill him if you have sufficient intimidate and did his quest is to take the renegade options that are basically shouting him down when he is begging you to give him a reason to stay with you. And anyone who knows Wrex will know that that is NOT going to work.

[AntiChri5]

Collider wrote...

This isn't just a sign of hostility, night. It's someone pointing a gun at you unprovoked. One can be hostile with words, but pointing a gun at someone is different. Police officers are told to shoot when someone with a gun is pointing at them or someone else. It can save lives.

Really?

[Jonathan Shepard]

Halmiriliath wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

He hasn't said more than a few sentences to Shepard. I did this only a few weeks ago. Shepard walks up and tells him to calm down, that he isn't the enemy here and that Saren is. Wrex gets pissed and says that he isn't so sure that Shepard isn't the enemy. Then Shepard gets one more line "I shouldn't need to explalin that to you, Wrex!" (or another, but I forget how the paragon/renegade lines are spoken), and then Wrex pulls his gun. That's it. The exchange lasts maybe ten seconds and Wrex points his gun at Shepard while also telling him that he's not going to allow the base to be destroyed, that he's "through with you."

Wrex is really goddamn lucky if Shepard is trusting enough to lower his weapon and then charm/intimidate him.

As I said, Wrex escalates the situation, not Shepard.

My apologies if I'm throwing a swerveball into this argument here, but to add to some of Baladas's questions, I would pose another: why are you so sure that Wrex intends to use his gun?

If we try to see it from Wrex's perspective, he's dealing with the fate of his species here and conflicted loyalty between the survival of the Krogan and a mission under the leadership of a commander who has done 'more for [him] than his family ever did'. To me this implies that Shepard is pretty much one of his closest friends, and as such I interpret him pulling his weapon in a slightly different way. I view it as his way of showing his frustration and the seriousness with which he views the consequences of deciding either way - almost attention-seeking, if you will. Just because he pulls it out at you, it does not necessarily mean he intends to use it. If he can be talked into lowering his firearm in a relatively short space of time, one could infer that it was indeed a means of attracting attention to the conflict in his mind - an outward manifestation of an inward problem - and that he was never sure about his intention to use it. Of course, Shepard would have to be very trusting and understanding of Wrex to risk his/her life on his belief that Wrex wouldn't shoot, but understanding one's own troops is essential to being a succesful commander, as Nightwriter said.  

This. Not to mention? Shepard's got armor on that's already withstood the bullets of thousands of Geth and Mercs by this point... I'm pretty sure until Wrex does more than fire a couple bullets, Shepard's pretty safe, with all the Salarians and teammates around. Even more so if Shep is a biotic.

[AntiChri5]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Halmiriliath wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

He hasn't said more than a few sentences to Shepard. I did this only a few weeks ago. Shepard walks up and tells him to calm down, that he isn't the enemy here and that Saren is. Wrex gets pissed and says that he isn't so sure that Shepard isn't the enemy. Then Shepard gets one more line "I shouldn't need to explalin that to you, Wrex!" (or another, but I forget how the paragon/renegade lines are spoken), and then Wrex pulls his gun. That's it. The exchange lasts maybe ten seconds and Wrex points his gun at Shepard while also telling him that he's not going to allow the base to be destroyed, that he's "through with you."

Wrex is really goddamn lucky if Shepard is trusting enough to lower his weapon and then charm/intimidate him.

As I said, Wrex escalates the situation, not Shepard.

My apologies if I'm throwing a swerveball into this argument here, but to add to some of Baladas's questions, I would pose another: why are you so sure that Wrex intends to use his gun?

If we try to see it from Wrex's perspective, he's dealing with the fate of his species here and conflicted loyalty between the survival of the Krogan and a mission under the leadership of a commander who has done 'more for [him] than his family ever did'. To me this implies that Shepard is pretty much one of his closest friends, and as such I interpret him pulling his weapon in a slightly different way. I view it as his way of showing his frustration and the seriousness with which he views the consequences of deciding either way - almost attention-seeking, if you will. Just because he pulls it out at you, it does not necessarily mean he intends to use it. If he can be talked into lowering his firearm in a relatively short space of time, one could infer that it was indeed a means of attracting attention to the conflict in his mind - an outward manifestation of an inward problem - and that he was never sure about his intention to use it. Of course, Shepard would have to be very trusting and understanding of Wrex to risk his/her life on his belief that Wrex wouldn't shoot, but understanding one's own troops is essential to being a succesful commander, as Nightwriter said.  

This. Not to mention? Shepard's got armor on that's already withstood the bullets of thousands of Geth and Mercs by this point... I'm pretty sure until Wrex does more than fire a couple bullets, Shepard's pretty safe, with all the Salarians and teammates around. Even more so if Shep is a biotic.

My vangaurd with Ashley overlooking with a sniper rifle didnt feel particularly threatened.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...
It's not his choice. The base gets destroyed, period. We're not curing the genophage either. Period. He is not an equal, he is a subordinate.

I did try, but then he pulled a gun so I ended it before he shot me.

Not hard enough.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You are not analyzing this as Wrex's friend, simply his commanding officer, which is fine, except for the fact that it is irrelevant.

commanding officer first and anything else second.

I don't recall you fulfilling the same sense of duty toward the council.

But then again you never tried very hard to conseal that fact that you're Xenophobic.