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[MrBoomba]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

MrBoomba wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I'm not completly sure. I allowed Genitivi to show Andrastes ashes to the rest of the world and I gave the scrolls to Sister Justine. I did this because I'm hoping that many people will investigate them and find out the real truth.

Andrastes ashes and the Guardian might be just magic you know.

This is what I'm thinking. It pointed she had powerful magics, perhaps she was a spirit healer/Arcane warrior combo? im being serious when saying this too, it makes sense cause she had magical powers, but had the might of a warrior and had healing powers, so it makes perfect sense!

There is that one book that suggests almost this exact thing (one of Wynne's gifts)...

Never actually read any of the gifts really, just figured out from guess and check which gifts best for who, lol.

[Swordfishtrombone]

I'm an atheist myself in real life, but don't know whether I'd be that in the DA:O universe - after all, if you've got magic and demons and spirits all round you producing very tangible, real life effects that cannot be attributed to "natural" occurrances or illusions, that makes the existence of deities a lot more plausible.

Though I see the same thing in DA:O that I see in real life - people attributing to God/The Maker happy coincidences, or things that are really the doing of hard working and corageous flesh and blood beings. So, when a gray warden arrives in a village where almost everyone has been slaughtered, and manages to save a few, those people are eager to attribute their luck to "the maker" sending the warden to save them. If it was the maker's doing, couldn't he have been a little more timely, and sent the warden in time to save not just a few, but the whole village? If the maker was smiling on the few that survived, and "miraculously" saved them, were the dead disfavored?

Just like in real life - when there's, say, a plane crash, and one person survives, more often than not, they call it a miracle, and thank God - should the hundreds that died also think so? Or when a doctor's spent 10 years arduously studying medicine, knowledge gained through generations of hard working scientists, and then saves a patient on the operating table after a long and difficult operation, guess who gets the credit most of the time? Thank you Jesus! 

For consistency's sake, I'd at least expect these people to blame their god for screwing up when the operation goes wrong, but more often than not, it's the doctor that's got to fear the lawsuit....

Sorry about going off on a rant, something of a pet peave...

Though the in the game, a certain character that you talk to on your quest for the holy ashes seems so god-like in knowledge that it seems to tilt the scales to there being a maker in the DA:O universe. Though that maker is probably much less into intervening in the affairs of the mortals than the Chantry would like you to believe.

[lordtrevas]

I believe that Andraste was more of a powerful spirit healer/Arcane warrior than a "servant" of a higher being. Maybe the Chantry tweaked her story a bit, since she was a compelling figure having her "associated" with them would help solidify their position as "the" sole entity of faith?

[AntiChri5]

Hangaround677 wrote...

Could be, it would be typical for a fictional world.

But i don't see how we could really discuss this properly. As far as i'm concerned there isn't any good theory about how Darkspawn were created besides the one provided by the Chantry(The old Magisters corrupted the golden city and got transformed, then they started searching for their Old Gods) . Of course some of us could make one, but after tonight's quantity of beer, im not the person to do it, don't think i would be right for the task without the beer either.

I would however like to say that i find it quite understandable that the others races in Thedas have no theory. The Dwarves have more then enough with defending themselves against Darkspawn and do not care where they come from(as stated by the wiki) The elves don't believe in the maker(even though they've been forced to, sadly), but can you expect someone who have been so oppressed by humans to give a **** about anything, but how to get by(or in the Dalish situation reclaiming their lost culture) As for now, we'll have to make do with the one well explained theory.

I can however say that whether the maker exists or not, the Chantry is pure politics, even though their intentions might be good(spreading the Chant of light so that the Maker will make Thedas a paradise) they oppress people, their exalted marches doesn't open for any other believes(the one who could be against the dwarves, the one against the Dalish and the ones against Tevinter) I'm not fund of this at all. They also strike me as quite cocky when it comes to their own power.
The last statement i can't elaborate as this is "no spoilers allowed". Stupid discussion to put in a no spoiler forum.

p.s: I'm not completely sure if the exalted marches involve Andrastian nations armies, or the military order of the Chantry - the templars. I find the first one to make the most sense, but i would like it confirmed as i then would have a proper view of the chantry.

The codex entry on Lyrium mentions that a great deal of exposure mutates people beyond recognition and some of the Tevinter magisters suffered this. There was a whole lot of Lyrium involved in getting to the golden city, wasn't there?

[Tekbear]

Andraste could have made all that maker thing up herself - people needed a bigger thing to be united so she was just being smart

[AntiChri5]

 More than half the wealth of Orzammar comes from a single, extremely rare substance: Lyrium. The Chantry believes it to be the "Waters of the Fade" mentioned in the Canticle of Threnodies, the very stuff of creation itself, from whence the Maker fashioned the world. Only a handful of Mining Caste families hazard extracting the ore, finding veins in the Stone quite literally by ear. For in its raw form, lyrium sings, and the discerning can hear the sound even through solid rock.
Even though dwarves have a natural resistance, raw lyrium is dangerous for all but the most experienced of the Mining Caste to handle. Even for dwarves, exposure to the unprocessed mineral can cause deafness or memory loss. For humans and elves, direct contact with lyrium ore produces nausea, blistering of the skin, and dementia. Mages cannot even approach unprocessed lyrium. Doing so is invariably fatal.
Despite its dangers, lyrium is the single most valuable mineral currently known. In the Tevinter Imperium, it has been known to command a higher price than diamond. The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle.
In the hands of the Circle, lyrium reaches its fullest potential. Their Formari craftsmen transform it into an array of useful items from the practical, such as magically hardened stones for construction, to the legendary silver armor of King Calenhad.
When mixed into liquid and ingested, lyrium allows mages to enter the Fade when fully aware, unlike all others who reach it only when dreaming. Such potions can also be used to aid in the casting of especially taxing spells, for a short time granting a mage far greater power than he normally wields.
Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human.
--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genetivi.

That is the entire codex entry on Lyrium, note the bold italic underlined part.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 10 avril 2010 - 11:58 .

[Hangaround677]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The codex entry on Lyrium mentions that a great deal of exposure mutates people beyond recognition and some of the Tevinter magisters suffered this. There was a whole lot of Lyrium involved in getting to the golden city, wasn't there?

Hm, that might do it as a potential theory for the darkspawns. Could explain the taint they carry as well. Perhaps we'll see something more on this from the writers in future games. Thanks, i wasn't aware of Lyriums potentional to mutate mages.

It would make sence that there is powerfull magic involved in "making" broodmothers.

Modifié par Hangaround677, 10 avril 2010 - 01:48 .

[CybAnt1]

I just think it's interesting that Fade Spirits don't seem to know the answer themselves, just ask Justice. He knows there's something beyond the Fade, where Kristoff's soul went, he just doesn't know what's there.



Safe prediction: nowhere in the DA saga will this question ever directly be answered (nor the riddles of the Golden/Black City), although it is possible that there both could be a Maker and that most of what the Chantry says about (it) is entirely false.

[Janni-in-VA]

The thread on Getting Laid in the Fade may be found here:  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/2018795

[Chuvvy]

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Modifié par Slidell505, 10 avril 2010 - 02:51 .

[Fat_Slob]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I'm not completly sure. I allowed Genitivi to show Andrastes ashes to the rest of the world and I gave the scrolls to Sister Justine. I did this because I'm hoping that many people will investigate them and find out the real truth.

Andrastes ashes and the Guardian might be just magic you know.

Has no one in this thread ever brought Oghren to the temple? He reveals everything.

[Chuvvy]

Fat_Slob wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I'm not completly sure. I allowed Genitivi to show Andrastes ashes to the rest of the world and I gave the scrolls to Sister Justine. I did this because I'm hoping that many people will investigate them and find out the real truth.

Andrastes ashes and the Guardian might be just magic you know.

Has no one in this thread ever brought Oghren to the temple? He reveals everything.

Wat? Link? Pics?

[Fat_Slob]

Slidell505 wrote...

Fat_Slob wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I'm not completly sure. I allowed Genitivi to show Andrastes ashes to the rest of the world and I gave the scrolls to Sister Justine. I did this because I'm hoping that many people will investigate them and find out the real truth.

Andrastes ashes and the Guardian might be just magic you know.

Has no one in this thread ever brought Oghren to the temple? He reveals everything.

Wat? Link? Pics?

Uggghhhh i suppose not...  Well anyway, I am exagerrating a little, but anyway, if you bring Oghren there he says he can sense lots of lyrium in the mountain and questions the Guardian about whether it's just the lyrium that's doing everything. (The guardian replies, "it is not my place to question") Well it goes something like that anyway. Also you should do a full chat with Kolgrim with Oghren in the party, its absolutely hilarious.

[Hangaround677]

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

That was just as stupid as it's needles for the discussion.

a little harsh, i'm truly sorry. I guess it was supposed to be in a funny motion, but you shouldn't call Dwarves retards for their believes. And as far as i'm told they don't believe their Ancestors created the stone itself, they just don't believe there is a god behind it all - at the very least not a human one. I can't say i know much about their believes though(only whats in the wikia). A post from someone who do would appreciated.

Modifié par Hangaround677, 10 avril 2010 - 04:17 .

[pburp]

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

[Hangaround677]

Good reading, thanks.

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

OMS!(Oh my science if you dont know)

I think I have an inkling as to where darkspawn originated from. Chantry version crock of bull I think. The Lyrium! It mutates people beyond recognition right? Well dwarves more often than not can assure you darkspawn were never on the surface(Till the blights of course). Perhapse some idiot magister entered orzammar with a group of apprentices in search of raw lyrium. Since the Lyrium in orzammar is so potent compared to whats on the surface. It mutated them so far that it created the first darkspawn! Notice how broodmothers are made? They eat the flesh of the tainted. Becoming mutated and beyond recognition. Same goes for darkspawn. Even wardens must drink pure archdemon blood and Lyrium in order to become what they are... so BAM!

The exposure to Lyrium possibly formed a new disease and spread it like wild fire, most likely infecting Dwarves first since they were in the direct area. Also dwarves were originally Avvars. If you played Awakenings and did the 2 stone brothers quest you will know what I mean(Check the codex people its a fun read.) Possibly something like Raybies(SP?) once you get it no cure and you go mad, as even grey wardens do. The whole instict to find old gods might be an almost hive minded mental network connected to what might be ancient firsts.(Darkspawn who rule em all.) XD

Modifié par TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain, 10 avril 2010 - 04:53 .

[Cat Lance]

@Imported and David, the idea of brood mother plushies is amazingly disturbing...



--

That said, I am still on-the-fence as to the Maker's existence. I figure that in the game world there is something that's real, but with everyone's religions being all about how their god(s) turned their back on the people, it's a little odd. Magic obviously exists and so a lot of "miracles" and such like could be explained easily by an "ignore the mage behind the curtain" kind of deal. Especially if Andraste herself was a mage and kept it to herself.

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

Cat Lance wrote...

@Imported and David, the idea of brood mother plushies is amazingly disturbing...

--
That said, I am still on-the-fence as to the Maker's existence. I figure that in the game world there is something that's real, but with everyone's religions being all about how their god(s) turned their back on the people, it's a little odd. Magic obviously exists and so a lot of "miracles" and such like could be explained easily by an "ignore the mage behind the curtain" kind of deal. Especially if Andraste herself was a mage and kept it to herself.

Thats another thing that seems to be common amongst the Religions of DA:O. Deity Desertion. The dalish gods bailed, The maker bailed, the old gods were "imprisoned"(bailed >.<). Damn is there no religion with a present diety? Im thinking their all wrong and something deeper is going on. Maybe the old gods were the same gods in every culture but got tired of the constant bickering and fighting of mortals. Kinda how the greeks and romans had the same gods, but different names, and different roles.

Quick someone summon the writter we need answers.

[Phonantiphon]

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?

[MrBoomba]

bassmunkee wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?

Mmm, i'm curious as to how this became about real life religions. Despite that, the beleif of Anscestors is a bit corny, it just states how cocky the dwarves are, or that perhaps they are really refering to how their god made them in their image so he is technically their "ancestor".

[Bigdoser]

Anyone think that andraste might of been a mage?

[thegreateski]

The Maker is a fade spirit and Andraste was a mage.