105 réponses à ce sujet

[Cat Lance]

bassmunkee wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?

Let's keep RL religions out of this, Slidell.

[AntiChri5]

Cat Lance wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?

Let's keep RL religions out of this, Slidell.

I think his point is that beliefs are beliefs, and looking at a religion from the outside, and without consciously being politically correct, that can be said of any religion.

[Alikain]

To put thing short the maker is real, for the same reason back in days when people worshipped the sun. The maker in dragon age is the sun that what I believed.

The prophetess Andraste (the name Andraste was the name of the Celtic Goddess of war) although name after the Celtic goddess of war, the story of her life in many ways mirrors that of Joan o Arc – including the manner in which she die. Her role within the Chantry religion is that of a messianic Christ-figure if you look at it closely and the vessel her ashes are contained in is presented much like the Holy Grail of the Christian lore, right down to the knights dying in its pursuit as they did in the Arthurian cycle. Even the way it was guarded is very similar manner as to the Grail as seen in Indiana Jones and the Last crusade.

[0mar]

Only way to conclusively find out is through Tevinter Imperium records. They were able to go into the (presumed) Golden City.



However, Andraste's ashes is very convincing. IMO, it seals the deal on whether or not there was a Maker.

[AntiChri5]

Take Oghren there, man

[0mar]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Take Oghren there, man

I have and it's not very convincing.  It's like saying radioactivity will turn water into some healing salve able to cure blindness.  I mean, it's possible but I wouldn't hold my breath.  

You would have to have a huge conflagrance of factors to make Andraste's ashes heal.  It just boggles the mind.  In literally every case, raw lyrium produces horrible mutagenic effects.  Secondly, according to a couple of codexes, Andraste's ashes were already healing people before entering that chamber.  Finally, Oghren is a warrior dwarf.  He may be able to sense lyrium, but he has no training in what lyrium is exactly.  That's reserved for the Smith class.

The simpler explanation is that Andraste is/was somehow divine.  The evidence for the existence of the Maker, IMO, is overwhelming.  The Black/Golden City, the Chant of Light accurately predicting Darkspawn behavior, the Old Tevinter Gods, the Fade spirits being able to sense a greater power, it all points to the existence of a Maker.

[MrBoomba]

0mar wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Take Oghren there, man

I have and it's not very convincing.  It's like saying radioactivity will turn water into some healing salve able to cure blindness.  I mean, it's possible but I wouldn't hold my breath.  

You would have to have a huge conflagrance of factors to make Andraste's ashes heal.  It just boggles the mind.  In literally every case, raw lyrium produces horrible mutagenic effects.  Secondly, according to a couple of codexes, Andraste's ashes were already healing people before entering that chamber.  Finally, Oghren is a warrior dwarf.  He may be able to sense lyrium, but he has no training in what lyrium is exactly.  That's reserved for the Smith class.

The simpler explanation is that Andraste is/was somehow divine.  The evidence for the existence of the Maker, IMO, is overwhelming.  The Black/Golden City, the Chant of Light accurately predicting Darkspawn behavior, the Old Tevinter Gods, the Fade spirits being able to sense a greater power, it all points to the existence of a Maker.

Perhaps She was just another character like your main character is now? A person who just simply had the power to take on massive forces and declared she had divine powers with her immense magical powers? It is possible, cause who would screw with someone who could kill you by just thinking it.
Especially when she was fighting for your cause.

Modifié par MrBoomba, 10 avril 2010 - 09:22 .

[Fat_Slob]

0mar wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Take Oghren there, man

I have and it's not very convincing.  It's like saying radioactivity will turn water into some healing salve able to cure blindness.  I mean, it's possible but I wouldn't hold my breath.  

You would have to have a huge conflagrance of factors to make Andraste's ashes heal.  It just boggles the mind.  In literally every case, raw lyrium produces horrible mutagenic effects.  Secondly, according to a couple of codexes, Andraste's ashes were already healing people before entering that chamber.  Finally, Oghren is a warrior dwarf.  He may be able to sense lyrium, but he has no training in what lyrium is exactly.  That's reserved for the Smith class.

The simpler explanation is that Andraste is/was somehow divine.  The evidence for the existence of the Maker, IMO, is overwhelming.  The Black/Golden City, the Chant of Light accurately predicting Darkspawn behavior, the Old Tevinter Gods, the Fade spirits being able to sense a greater power, it all points to the existence of a Maker.

............. Obviously they worked with the lyrium and reformed it to their will and whatnot to make the place magical. Did you seriously think they just built the temple in a bunch of raw lyrium and hoped it would make the place magical? Jeez... No offence, but you are seriously idiotic to think that. (I'm not flaming you or anything, just speaking my mind as I often do)
It's like the anvil of the void, there are huge branches of lyrium running into it that were obviously shaped and reformed and whatnot to give the anvil it's power.

[blacqout]

My guy started the game off as an atheist, but that quickly changed after encountering the urn. The Chantry probably doesn't have it all right, but i'm confident that the maker exists in the game.

[Si-Shen]

I don't even believe, after the urn, the Maker is a god, a spirit in the Fade, maybe but not a god. As for the Urn, even Wynne comments on the temple being full of magic, the curitive nature of the ashes may simply be from centuries of obsorbing magic OR a spirit making them something more then they are.



But a god, no.

[thegreateski]

Hmm . . . lets say that "The Maker" is a spirit . . . what kind of spirit is he?

[yummysoap]

This is a question that will never be answered, as the devs deliberately made it so that religion is a choice of the PC, with arguments on both sides of the coin.

What I don't like, however, is that the arguments are weighted in the direction of the Maker's existence. With the ashes and the guardian and all the magic and demons etc. it would seem silly to (at that time and place) even possibly deny the existence of a Maker. I am an atheist IRL but I could never roleplay one in DA:O, especially after the Urn, as it all just seems too real. After reading some of the above posts with regard to lyrium deformation and Oggy's comments at the temple I am a little more at ease.

One thing I did try to do with one PC was theorize that Andraste was a messed up blood mage that warped the minds of her followers into actually believing that she's a prophet. It would explain the accounts of all the miracles she performed, and it may even explain her magical ashes. It would have been nice to have seen some speculation on that thrown into the actual game.

What I do like about religion in DA:O is that the Maker is a jealous and spiteful douche. If he were a human he'd be that little whiny dork that clings to every tiny morsel of affection and then goes into a psychotic rage when you decide you don't like him as much as someone else. The only thing in the lore that he ever consistently does is turn his back on everything he made. You'd think an all-powerful being would be able to rise above petty sexual jealousy and grudges. He really is quite easily offended.

Modifié par yummysoap, 11 avril 2010 - 02:00 .

[Gill Kaiser]

0mar wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Take Oghren there, man

I have and it's not very convincing.  It's like saying radioactivity will turn water into some healing salve able to cure blindness.  I mean, it's possible but I wouldn't hold my breath.  

You would have to have a huge conflagrance of factors to make Andraste's ashes heal.  It just boggles the mind.  In literally every case, raw lyrium produces horrible mutagenic effects.  Secondly, according to a couple of codexes, Andraste's ashes were already healing people before entering that chamber.  Finally, Oghren is a warrior dwarf.  He may be able to sense lyrium, but he has no training in what lyrium is exactly.  That's reserved for the Smith class.

Lyrium is basically the Element Zero of Dragon Age. As 'distilled magic', it's pure Applied Phlebotinum/Meteor Rocks. The lore doesn't rule out anything when lyrium is involved. When drunk, it replenishes mana. When folded into weapons and armour it enhances them with magical effects. When touched by a mage, it causes them to physically enter the Fade. Who is to say that putting the earthly remains of a powerful mage (what I think Andraste had to have been) into a cavern surrounded by pure lyrium wouldn't enhance said remains with the ability to heal? It wouldn't be that different to a Rune enhancement, but by osmosis rather than artifice.

Also, we know that Shades can at least take the form of dead mortals, and may even be the spirits of the dead themselves (we see elven 'ghosts' in the Brecilian Forest ruin, for example). There is some connection between the Fade and the dead. Who is to say that a lyrium cavern wouldn't do strange things to the Veil and either allow the spirits of the dead to return, or allow Fade spirits to merge with the beliefs of the Temple faithful and take the form of the characters from Andraste's legend?

The simpler explanation is that Andraste is/was somehow divine.  The evidence for the existence of the Maker, IMO, is overwhelming. The Black/Golden City, the Chant of Light accurately predicting Darkspawn behavior, the Old Tevinter Gods, the Fade spirits being able to sense a greater power, it all points to the existence of a Maker.

The existence of the Black/Golden City proves nothing. It's just part of the Fade. It could just be the realm of a particularly powerful Fade spirit/demon, and have nothing to do with Andraste or her faith at all. Alternatively, the spirit which resides there could be the 'Maker' Andraste spoke to/merged with (as I said, I believe she was a mage), but that doesn't mean that it's divine, and it doesn't mean that it created the Fade or the physical world.

The Chant of Light accurately predicting Darkspawn behaviour proves nothing, as even if it was written after the First Blight (which I don't think it was), it could and probably was amended, added to and translated many times in the years between Andraste's death and the present day. It could have been changed to reflect the behaviour of the Darkspawn observed from the First Blight or later Blights. Alternatively, even if this isn't true and the Chant of Light did indeed predict Darkspawn behaviour, and the Tevinter Magisters actually were the first Darkspawn, that doesn't prove anything about the existence of the Maker or anything divine. Their corruption into the Darkspawn could be a purely magical or scientific result of their Fade and blood magic experimentation.

It's probable that the Imperium's Old Gods actually did exist physically, but whether they were supernatural/divine or simply a higher stage of the dragon species' lifecycle is unknown. Their existence also doesn't indicate anything about the Maker.

Really, your only actual evidence is the Fade spirits being able to sense a greater power. This is the best evidence for the existence of the Maker. However, it's extremely vague, and could refer to anything from a natural force like magic, to another realm like the Fade/physical world, to a particularly powerful Fade spirit, to David Gaider.

For the record, here's what I think really happened (pure speculation on my part):

Andraste is born in Ferelden a powerful mage, in the days before the Circle. She is not tutored in the ways of magic, and grows up ignorant of her gift, or at least not understanding it for what it is. She enters the Fade when she dreams, like all humans/elves, and, as a mage, is able to remember it and influence it to some extent. She comes into contact with a powerful spirit, who takes a liking to her in the same way as the Spirit of Faith took a liking to Wynne when she was young. The spirit follows her and watches her as she grows up, and at some point begins to communicate with her.

Meanwhile, the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium are performing more and more extravagent magical experiments in an effort to gain further understanding of magic and the Fade, and to enhance their power. They are using blood magic fueled by the deaths of their slaves, and vast quantities of lyrium. The Old Gods, who I think are simply the most ancient High Dragons who have lived long enough to reach a further life stage, may or may not have taught or urged them to do this. Anyway, when the Magisters perform their greatest experiment and attempt to reach the Golden City part of the Fade, the combination of mass death, blood magic and lyrium usage simultaneously ruptures the Veil, mutates the mages involved, and possibly causes the Golden City to blacken by giving the realm's spirit(s) a whole bunch of bad mojo to feed off. The result of the magical equivalent of a nuclear meltdown is the creation of a new lifeform, the Darkspawn, who promptly find Dumat and start a Blight.

Andraste, as a Fereldan and a former slave, hates the Tevinter Imperium. She sees the First Blight as a chance to rebel against the oppressors. She raises an army and various allies (including the elves) and marches on the Imperium. She is aided by her magical abilities which she considers divine gifts, and by her relationship with the Fade spirit (which could have formed a symbiotic relationship with her by this time, in the manner of Flemeth). When she is eventually burnt at the stake, she dies like any other mortal. As for Havard being healed upon touching her ashes, it may be that the spirit that was part of her stuck around in her remains up to the present day, or maybe just healed Havard so that he could transport Andraste's ashes away.

Andraste's ashes are moved to a lyrium-rich cavern system and left there for centuries. The nature of the caverns means the Veil is thin, and magical and spirit-based phenomena begin to occur. Maybe Andraste's spirit buddy still exists in her remains, and keeps the Guardian alive. The riddle-spirits are ghosts along the same lines as the elven ghosts in the Brecilian forest.

After a while the Chantry turns up, seeps everything in allegory and myth, sticks a bunch of anti-mage and anti-Tevinter propaganda in there, and starts telling everyone what to do.

There you go, a perfectly plausible explanation that requires no divine intervention at all, merely the Fade, spirits, magic and dragons, all of which are demonstrably real in the Dragon Age setting.

Modifié par Gill Kaiser, 11 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

@Gill Kaiser:

I agree. To further your evidence of the guardian being kept alive by a spirit, look at the Avernus from Wardens keep. He has survived about 200 years and hasnt really aged much from his days alongside Commander Dryden. Not to mention that the veil is extremely thin there as well.



Another example is the Lady of the forest and The dalish leaders(forget the name...) symbiotic relationship. He is immortal and has lived about a good 100 to 80 years by fusing bonds of magic with the Lady of the Forest. When she dies, he dies. They both can die individually if killed by a blade, but if not harmed they dont even age. Both of these mentioned events occur in places with a very, very thin Veil. As for the golden/black city. It might not even be that at all. Last time I read the codex, as I understood it the Fade is never constant, its always changing physically. Justice confirms this when you discuss the topic(Awakenings) There is no absolute in the fade, no death, no magic, and more importantly there are no dead people at all. Has anyone seen spirits of the dead in the fade? All I see is the spirits that are there and demons.



As for if the maker is real. Im thinking he is a spirit. Something that Justice says comes to mind when I think of the "Maker". Nathaniel Howe asks him, "How where you born?"(Paraphrase) Justice answers by saying he always was. Basically the spirits and demons always existed.



Another key note is that Justice states that spirits dont believe in the maker. Only those who have seen the dreams of mortals even know that term. Even one of the demons denerim alienage states that there is no maker. Shortly after skewering a templar whom should have been able to disable the demons "Magic".

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

VentraleStar wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

This is a question that will never be answered, as the devs deliberately made it so that religion is a choice of the PC, with arguments on both sides of the coin.

What I don't like, however, is that the arguments are weighted in the direction of the Maker's existence. With the ashes and the guardian and all the magic and demons etc. it would seem silly to (at that time and place) even possibly deny the existence of a Maker. I am an atheist IRL but I could never roleplay one in DA:O, especially after the Urn, as it all just seems too real. After reading some of the above posts with regard to lyrium deformation and Oggy's comments at the temple I am a little more at ease.

One thing I did try to do with one PC was theorize that Andraste was a messed up blood mage that warped the minds of her followers into actually believing that she's a prophet. It would explain the accounts of all the miracles she performed, and it may even explain her magical ashes. It would have been nice to have seen some speculation on that thrown into the actual game.

What I do like about religion in DA:O is that the Maker is a jealous and spiteful douche. If he were a human he'd be that little whiny dork that clings to every tiny morsel of affection and then goes into a psychotic rage when you decide you don't like him as much as someone else. The only thing in the lore that he ever consistently does is turn his back on everything he made. You'd think an all-powerful being would be able to rise above petty sexual jealousy and grudges. He really is quite easily offended.

But the dwarves believe its all crap and so do the dalish.  The spirits have easily been explained without any god.

Acording to Oghren in awakenings, Dwarves dont enter the fade when they sleep. They dont even dream, not also throwing in that dwarves are alot like the tranquil, exception being they keep their emotions.

[Fat_Slob]

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...

VentraleStar wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

This is a question that will never be answered, as the devs deliberately made it so that religion is a choice of the PC, with arguments on both sides of the coin.

What I don't like, however, is that the arguments are weighted in the direction of the Maker's existence. With the ashes and the guardian and all the magic and demons etc. it would seem silly to (at that time and place) even possibly deny the existence of a Maker. I am an atheist IRL but I could never roleplay one in DA:O, especially after the Urn, as it all just seems too real. After reading some of the above posts with regard to lyrium deformation and Oggy's comments at the temple I am a little more at ease.

One thing I did try to do with one PC was theorize that Andraste was a messed up blood mage that warped the minds of her followers into actually believing that she's a prophet. It would explain the accounts of all the miracles she performed, and it may even explain her magical ashes. It would have been nice to have seen some speculation on that thrown into the actual game.

What I do like about religion in DA:O is that the Maker is a jealous and spiteful douche. If he were a human he'd be that little whiny dork that clings to every tiny morsel of affection and then goes into a psychotic rage when you decide you don't like him as much as someone else. The only thing in the lore that he ever consistently does is turn his back on everything he made. You'd think an all-powerful being would be able to rise above petty sexual jealousy and grudges. He really is quite easily offended.

But the dwarves believe its all crap and so do the dalish.  The spirits have easily been explained without any god.

Acording to Oghren in awakenings, Dwarves dont enter the fade when they sleep. They dont even dream, not also throwing in that dwarves are alot like the tranquil, exception being they keep their emotions.

This really confuses me, because your dwarven PC in origins dreams of the archdemon, and in awakenings Oghren says he has a strange dream involving Hespith or something, and from what I remember he talks as if he has always had dreams. Yet dwarves aren't meant to dream apparrently.

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

Fat_Slob wrote...

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...

VentraleStar wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

This is a question that will never be answered, as the devs deliberately made it so that religion is a choice of the PC, with arguments on both sides of the coin.

What I don't like, however, is that the arguments are weighted in the direction of the Maker's existence. With the ashes and the guardian and all the magic and demons etc. it would seem silly to (at that time and place) even possibly deny the existence of a Maker. I am an atheist IRL but I could never roleplay one in DA:O, especially after the Urn, as it all just seems too real. After reading some of the above posts with regard to lyrium deformation and Oggy's comments at the temple I am a little more at ease.

One thing I did try to do with one PC was theorize that Andraste was a messed up blood mage that warped the minds of her followers into actually believing that she's a prophet. It would explain the accounts of all the miracles she performed, and it may even explain her magical ashes. It would have been nice to have seen some speculation on that thrown into the actual game.

What I do like about religion in DA:O is that the Maker is a jealous and spiteful douche. If he were a human he'd be that little whiny dork that clings to every tiny morsel of affection and then goes into a psychotic rage when you decide you don't like him as much as someone else. The only thing in the lore that he ever consistently does is turn his back on everything he made. You'd think an all-powerful being would be able to rise above petty sexual jealousy and grudges. He really is quite easily offended.

But the dwarves believe its all crap and so do the dalish.  The spirits have easily been explained without any god.

Acording to Oghren in awakenings, Dwarves dont enter the fade when they sleep. They dont even dream, not also throwing in that dwarves are alot like the tranquil, exception being they keep their emotions.

This really confuses me, because your dwarven PC in origins dreams of the archdemon, and in awakenings Oghren says he has a strange dream involving Hespith or something, and from what I remember he talks as if he has always had dreams. Yet dwarves aren't meant to dream apparrently.

Simple explination, its not a dream. Wardens can hear the archdemon, see it, feel it. Its not the fade they are looking into. Its sort of like they linked with a darkspawn and saw through its eyes the archdemon. Which would support if accurate that darkspawn have a hive like mentallity. Sort of like the collectors in ME2, or Legion. Many individuals, one mind, one goal, one thought. Destroy! Muahahahaha!(Jk but I think you get the point)

[Bryy_Miller]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?

Let's keep RL religions out of this, Slidell.

I think his point is that beliefs are beliefs, and looking at a religion from the outside, and without consciously being politically correct, that can be said of any religion.

Seriously. 

[AntiChri5]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?

Let's keep RL religions out of this, Slidell.

I think his point is that beliefs are beliefs, and looking at a religion from the outside, and without consciously being politically correct, that can be said of any religion.

Seriously. 

Care to clarify? If you have a problem if what i have said please say so openly and in depth (and politely) so i can explain my statement to you (most internet arguments come from miscommunication.) If you don't have a problem then sorry.

I never know how to reply to single word statements. Too much room for misinterpretation.

[AntiChri5]

VentraleStar wrote...

So doesn't that fact the dwarves can't go into the fade prove they are not of the maker's hands.

They can go into the fade, they just don't go there when they sleep like everyone else.

[CybAnt1]

As for if the maker is real. Im thinking he is a spirit. Something that Justice says comes to mind when I think of the "Maker". Nathaniel Howe asks him, "How where you born?"(Paraphrase) Justice answers by saying he always was. Basically the spirits and demons always existed.

But if you'll notice they are all embodiments of human emotions and values ... the demons negative (desire/rage/sloth), the spirits positive (justice,valor, etc.). This is why I think human qualities, when manifested in the dreamworld of the Fade, bring them into being as a reflection. The tranquil process is done so that the power of emotion won't manifest as these Fade beings. 

Also, we know they can be destroyed. Thus they're not eternal. They may just not have a recollection of how they came into being, therefore they are not "born". 

[lordtrevas]

CybAnt1 wrote...

As for if the maker is real. Im thinking he is a spirit. Something that Justice says comes to mind when I think of the "Maker". Nathaniel Howe asks him, "How where you born?"(Paraphrase) Justice answers by saying he always was. Basically the spirits and demons always existed.

But if you'll notice they are all embodiments of human emotions and values ... the demons negative (desire/rage/sloth), the spirits positive (justice,valor, etc.). This is why I think human qualities, when manifested in the dreamworld of the Fade, bring them into being as a reflection. The tranquil process is done so that the power of emotion won't manifest as these Fade beings. 

Also, we know they can be destroyed. Thus they're not eternal. They may just not have a recollection of how they came into being, therefore they are not "born". 

Mayhap the first time every single human has 1 emotion (rage/lust/faith/whatever) it creates a spirit/demon that represents it?