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Is there a Maker?


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#76
Bryy_Miller

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?


Let's keep RL religions out of this, Slidell.


I think his point is that beliefs are beliefs, and looking at a religion from the outside, and without consciously being politically correct, that can be said of any religion.


Seriously. 


Care to clarify? If you have a problem if what i have said please say so openly and in depth (and politely) so i can explain my statement to you (most internet arguments come from miscommunication.) If you don't have a problem then sorry.

I never know how to reply to single word statements.:( Too much room for misinterpretation.


I was agreeing with you. The entire idea that you can't comment on real life concepts in a video games is silly.

#77
OneBadAssMother

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Dragon Age's world design seems to allows you to have doubts or to have faith in the created world's religions, it doesn't dictate on 'what is real' or 'what is not' - as a game I reckon they did it nicely. As for the Urn, there was powerful magic all over the whole ruins, who says it needed to be from a "God".



If anyone has gone through the Reaper quest - you'll notice you didn't exactly get struck down for defiling the "Maker's Bride" did you? ;)

#78
Elhanan

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For my own play, this question depends on my characters cultural background, the signs experienced along my path in this tale, and the influence of others. Character approval works both ways for me as a rule.



My first Dwarf converted to the Chantry beliefs, and the others I have made are at least tolerant. This is mostly due to Liliana and Wynn's influences, and the Ashes. Even my latest Dalish Rogue returned the Tears to the Chantry due to his romantic involvement with Lil. While he does not believe in the Maker, he believes in them.

#79
Swordfishtrombone

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This is an interesting thread, but am I the only one who thinks this should be in the "spoiler's allowed" forum? I see storyline spoilers left and right. :huh:

#80
eucatastrophe

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I don't know what to believe to be honest; my conflict stems from what we know of the Elves and the Elven Pantheon. They obviously do not worship the Maker, but interestingly enough, they acknowledge his existence. They (along with other clues) also hint at Andraste being an opportunist.



Then again, you have her ashes, the immortal Guardian, etc. It could all be magic... But wasn't Andraste a very powerful mage?



It's all murky, and I like it that way. Kudos to Bioware for making such a mire of faith :)

#81
svenus97

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  • Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the
    Maker?
  • Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the
    moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at
    night.
  • Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits,
    magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You
    know these things exist.
  • Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not
    presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
  • Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence
    that we are all here?
  • Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is
    futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic.
  • Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a
    purpose. All of us.
  • Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.
--

  • Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of
    higher power?
  • Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do
    not. Must I?
  • Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you
    die then? Nothing?
  • Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's
    what you mean.
  • Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the
    Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void,
    hopeless and forever lost.
  • Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only
    spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.
  • Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing,
    to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.
  • Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen
    through me to my sad, sad core.
  • Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.
  • Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers
    know no bounds.
--

  • Leliana: Let me ask you this, then, Morrigan. What if
    there really was a Maker?
  • Morrigan: Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His
    creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.
  • Leliana: He left us because we were determined to make
    our own way, even if we hurt outselves, and He could not bear to watch.
  • Morrigan: But how do you know? You cannot ask Him this.
    Perhaps He has gone to a new creation elsewhere, and abandoned this as a
    dismal failure, best forgotten.
  • Leliana: I do not need to know because I have faith. I
    believe in Him and feel His hope and His love.
  • Morrigan: "Faith." How quickly those who have no answers
    invoke that word.
  • Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so
    little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?
  • Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it
    and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for
    your higher power, there it is.
  • Leliana: But only if you can control it. I do not envy
    the loneliness you must feel at times Morrigan.
  • Morrigan: I... leave me be. Loneliness would be
    preferred to this... endless chatter.
More than half the wealth of Orzammar comes from a single, extremely
rare substance: Lyrium. The Chantry believes it to be the "Waters of the
Fade" mentioned in the Canticle of Threnodies, the very stuff of
creation itself, from whence the Maker fashioned the world. Only a
handful of Mining Caste families hazard extracting the ore, finding
veins in the Stone quite literally by ear. For in its raw form, lyrium
sings, and the discerning can hear the sound even through solid rock.


Even though dwarves have a natural resistance, raw lyrium is
dangerous for all but the most experienced of the Mining Caste to
handle. Even for dwarves, exposure to the unprocessed mineral can cause
deafness or memory loss. For humans and elves, direct contact with
lyrium ore produces nausea, blistering of the skin, and dementia. Mages
cannot even approach unprocessed lyrium. Doing so is invariably fatal.


Despite its dangers, lyrium is the single most valuable mineral
currently known. In the Tevinter Imperium, it has been known to command a
higher price than diamond. The dwarves sell very little of the
processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what
they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly
superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the
surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From
the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it
in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle.


In the hands of the Circle, lyrium reaches its fullest potential.
Their Formari craftsmen transform it into an array of useful items from
the practical, such as magically hardened stones for construction, to
the legendary silver armor of King Calenhad.


When mixed into liquid and ingested, lyrium allows mages to enter
the Fade when fully aware, unlike all others who reach it only when
dreaming. Such potions can also be used to aid in the casting of
especially taxing spells, for a short time granting a mage far greater
power than he normally wields.


Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive,
the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable
of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They
frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt
their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer
physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were
widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use
that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as
creatures that had once been human.
First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they
beat us and eat some for meat.

Third day, the men are gnawed
on again.

Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth
day, they return and it's another girl's turn.

Sixth day, her
screams we hear in our dreams.

Seventh day, she grew as in
her mouth they spew.

Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.
Ninth
day, she grins and devours her kin.

Now she does feast, as
she's become the beast."

It is well-known that darkspawn
carry off those captured in their raids to underground lairs. most
assume that the prisoners are eaten, or somehow tainted and turned into
darkspawn themselves, though this could never account for the sheer
numbers of the horde. Forays made by Grey
Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer.


When exposed to the darkspawn taint, men are driven mad and
eventually die. Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations
that cause most of them to perish. Those that survive, however, become
the grotesque broodmothers. These giant, twisted behemoths birth many
darkspawn at a time; a single broodmother can create thousands of
darkspawn over the course of her lifetime. Each type of darkspawn is
born from a different broodmother: Humans
produce hurlocks, dwarves
produce genlocks, elves
give birth to shrieks, and from qunari
are born the ogres.






There may be a Maker, but the Maker the Chantry tells about surley is as Morrigan says, an irresponisble father-figure, afterall accoring to the Chantry he did leave the Fade as a failed creation, who's to say he didn't do the same with Thedas.

About the Darkspawn and the Broodmothers, read the codex above.

About the Ashes, Oghren mentions there is a high concentracion of Lyrium there, and since Dwarfs can sense Lyrium, I have no reason to doubt him.

Short Answer: Magic

#82
OrlesianWardenCommander

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I suppose, seems gods are as nonexistant in this game as in real life. But ill take Gax Kang Unbounds word for it. He told me eyes are on me from a high vantage point. So ya i suppose he exists in the DAO Lore.

#83
Herr Uhl

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OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

I suppose, seems gods are as nonexistant in this game as in real life. But ill take Gax Kang Unbounds word for it. He told me eyes are on me from a high vantage point. So ya i suppose he exists in the DAO Lore.


...So you suppose that a demon were implying that the high vantage point wasn't mightier demons, but the maker for some reason?

#84
Gill Kaiser

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Gax'kang the Unbound was a powerful Revenant (i.e. a demon possessed corpse). He is a demon, and it's been established by other demons and by Justice in Awakenings that spirits and demons don't believe in the Maker. Gax'kang was probably referring to denizens of the Fade.

#85
fanman72

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I think that's like asking "Is there a god?" in our world. Some believe, some don't. It's up to the person and no one really knows. I think that's what the writers were trying to go for

#86
Chuvvy

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If the maker is real, he's a bit of a ******. If you don't do everything perfectly you get sent to the fade to wander aimlessly for all eternity. That seems reasonable.

#87
Chuvvy

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Cat Lance wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Dwarves are retarded they believe their ancestors created everything.

Why does that make them any more retarded than people who believe in the maker, or IRL in Christians, for example...?


Let's keep RL religions out of this, Slidell.


Right,because people that are worshiping thier ancestors are totally on this forum. I'll keep that in mind.

Modifié par Slidell505, 14 avril 2010 - 11:52 .


#88
CybAnt1

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Ancestor worship is a feature of real-life religions on Earth. However, I do agree it's unlikely to be found among the computer RPG playing demographic.




#89
CybAnt1

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Slidell505 wrote...

If the maker is real, he's a bit of a ******. If you don't do everything perfectly you get sent to the fade to wander aimlessly for all eternity. That seems reasonable.


Just remember as I keep saying: he could be 'real' and be completely different from what the Chantry says, too. 

The Fade Spirits don't believe or disbelieve in him either; they know something's beyond the Fade (Justice says so), they just don't know what it is. 

If they're sticking to the principle I saw on the forums a while back, they are going to leave this an unanswered question through the whole series. 

#90
AntiChri5

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CybAnt1 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

If the maker is real, he's a bit of a ******. If you don't do everything perfectly you get sent to the fade to wander aimlessly for all eternity. That seems reasonable.


Just remember as I keep saying: he could be 'real' and be completely different from what the Chantry says, too. 

The Fade Spirits don't believe or disbelieve in him either; they know something's beyond the Fade (Justice says so), they just don't know what it is. 

If they're sticking to the principle I saw on the forums a while back, they are going to leave this an unanswered question through the whole series. 





Yeah i believe i saw Gaider post that they deliberatley left it open to interpretation so that whether or not you believed was actually a matter of faith.

#91
Bigdoser

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svenus97 wrote...

  • Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the
    Maker?
  • Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the
    moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at
    night.
  • Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits,
    magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You
    know these things exist.
  • Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not
    presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
  • Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence
    that we are all here?
  • Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is
    futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic.
  • Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a
    purpose. All of us.
  • Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.
--

  • Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of
    higher power?
  • Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do
    not. Must I?
  • Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you
    die then? Nothing?
  • Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's
    what you mean.
  • Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the
    Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void,
    hopeless and forever lost.
  • Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only
    spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.
  • Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing,
    to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.
  • Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen
    through me to my sad, sad core.
  • Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.
  • Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers
    know no bounds.
--

  • Leliana: Let me ask you this, then, Morrigan. What if
    there really was a Maker?
  • Morrigan: Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His
    creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.
  • Leliana: He left us because we were determined to make
    our own way, even if we hurt outselves, and He could not bear to watch.
  • Morrigan: But how do you know? You cannot ask Him this.
    Perhaps He has gone to a new creation elsewhere, and abandoned this as a
    dismal failure, best forgotten.
  • Leliana: I do not need to know because I have faith. I
    believe in Him and feel His hope and His love.
  • Morrigan: "Faith." How quickly those who have no answers
    invoke that word.
  • Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so
    little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?
  • Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it
    and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for
    your higher power, there it is.
  • Leliana: But only if you can control it. I do not envy
    the loneliness you must feel at times Morrigan.
  • Morrigan: I... leave me be. Loneliness would be
    preferred to this... endless chatter.
More than half the wealth of Orzammar comes from a single, extremely
rare substance: Lyrium. The Chantry believes it to be the "Waters of the
Fade" mentioned in the Canticle of Threnodies, the very stuff of
creation itself, from whence the Maker fashioned the world. Only a
handful of Mining Caste families hazard extracting the ore, finding
veins in the Stone quite literally by ear. For in its raw form, lyrium
sings, and the discerning can hear the sound even through solid rock.


Even though dwarves have a natural resistance, raw lyrium is
dangerous for all but the most experienced of the Mining Caste to
handle. Even for dwarves, exposure to the unprocessed mineral can cause
deafness or memory loss. For humans and elves, direct contact with
lyrium ore produces nausea, blistering of the skin, and dementia. Mages
cannot even approach unprocessed lyrium. Doing so is invariably fatal.


Despite its dangers, lyrium is the single most valuable mineral
currently known. In the Tevinter Imperium, it has been known to command a
higher price than diamond. The dwarves sell very little of the
processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what
they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly
superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the
surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From
the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it
in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle.


In the hands of the Circle, lyrium reaches its fullest potential.
Their Formari craftsmen transform it into an array of useful items from
the practical, such as magically hardened stones for construction, to
the legendary silver armor of King Calenhad.


When mixed into liquid and ingested, lyrium allows mages to enter
the Fade when fully aware, unlike all others who reach it only when
dreaming. Such potions can also be used to aid in the casting of
especially taxing spells, for a short time granting a mage far greater
power than he normally wields.


Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive,
the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable
of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They
frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt
their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer
physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were
widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use
that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as
creatures that had once been human.
First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they
beat us and eat some for meat.

Third day, the men are gnawed
on again.

Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth
day, they return and it's another girl's turn.

Sixth day, her
screams we hear in our dreams.

Seventh day, she grew as in
her mouth they spew.

Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.
Ninth
day, she grins and devours her kin.

Now she does feast, as
she's become the beast."

It is well-known that darkspawn
carry off those captured in their raids to underground lairs. most
assume that the prisoners are eaten, or somehow tainted and turned into
darkspawn themselves, though this could never account for the sheer
numbers of the horde. Forays made by Grey
Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer.


When exposed to the darkspawn taint, men are driven mad and
eventually die. Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations
that cause most of them to perish. Those that survive, however, become
the grotesque broodmothers. These giant, twisted behemoths birth many
darkspawn at a time; a single broodmother can create thousands of
darkspawn over the course of her lifetime. Each type of darkspawn is
born from a different broodmother: Humans
produce hurlocks, dwarves
produce genlocks, elves
give birth to shrieks, and from qunari
are born the ogres.






There may be a Maker, but the Maker the Chantry tells about surley is as Morrigan says, an irresponisble father-figure, afterall accoring to the Chantry he did leave the Fade as a failed creation, who's to say he didn't do the same with Thedas.

About the Darkspawn and the Broodmothers, read the codex above.

About the Ashes, Oghren mentions there is a high concentracion of Lyrium there, and since Dwarfs can sense Lyrium, I have no reason to doubt him.

Short Answer: Magic




  
[*]awesome post agree with every point

#92
Inquisitor Recon

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What's that big black city thing then? Somebody must of built that.

#93
AntiChri5

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Have you read about the fade?

#94
Kerendar

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TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...
...
As for the golden/black city. It might not even be that at all. Last time I read the codex, as I understood it the Fade is never constant, its always changing physically. Justice confirms this when you discuss the topic(Awakenings) There is no absolute in the fade, no death, no magic, and more importantly there are no dead people at all. Has anyone seen spirits of the dead in the fade? All I see is the spirits that are there and demons.
...


SPOILERS to THE CALLING and THE STOLEN THRONE, you have been warned.


Maric has a similar experience in the Fade as does the PC during "Lost in Dreams", he is stuck in the Fade by a powerful demon. The PC, if not a mage, knows nothing of how the Fade actually works except from some bits he may have read in books, he has no experience there, no way of knowing what to do. So we have Niall, a Mage trapped in the Fade to guide the PC.
Maric has no mage to guide him. Instead he is guided by a being that resembles his dead love Katriel. Now she could be a Fade Spitit of Love or some other "good" spirit of course. But it is suggested (Maric thinks) that she may actually be the soul of Katriel.
Katriel was far away from "good" most of her life and many people died due to her deeds as a spy though she deeply regrets this in the end.

I think that it was actually her, a tormented soul full of regret, lost in the Fade who never found her way to where dead people are supposed to get to, call it the beyond or whatever. Or maybe she stayed there, somehow knowing that Maric would wind up in the Fade, to help him and will then continue her journey if you prefer a happier ending for her.

This is NOT supposed to be proof in the Maker, (only my human noble believes in Him). Its what I consider proof for dead people in the Fade.

#95
CybAnt1

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One of the ideas I've considered is that the Maker might be something like a Celestial, from the Marvel comics.



http://en.wikipedia....lestial_(comics)



Although I don't think Thedans make the distinction we/I make, between their world and the universe, it seems they think the Maker only made their world, not everything ... although of course again for them their world (plus the Fade) is everything.



Anyway ... one of my theories is that the Maker might be a world-maker, sort of like the Celestials.... not a "god" but something that might as well be thought of as such.








#96
AntiChri5

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Except that he got drunk and buggered off and now cant remember where he parked the universe.

#97
thegreateski

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Except that he got drunk and buggered off and now cant remember where he parked the universe.

Hmm . . . I'll repeat what I said in an earlier thread.

*ahem*

The Maker is a drunken hobo dodging child support payments.

#98
AntiChri5

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thegreateski wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Except that he got drunk and buggered off and now cant remember where he parked the universe.

Hmm . . . I'll repeat what I said in an earlier thread.

*ahem*

The Maker is a drunken hobo dodging child support payments.


I like you.

#99
Chuvvy

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Except that he got drunk and buggered off and now cant remember where he parked the universe.


It's always something.

#100
Remy LeBeau

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"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever ramains however improbable must be the truth". Sherlock Holmes.



When you look at the Facts. The black City, The Old gods being imprisoned in the earth, The Dark Spawn (hearing the call), Andrastes ashes, The Demons and Spirits not knowing where the human souls go when they die.



Hell when there is a blight, the ground and the air rot. The sky turns black and humans die or become gouls from the taint.If that dosen't sound like a curse on humanity from the Maker,I don't know what is.



But if you want to get technical. Bioware is the Maker. ha ha ha