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[cmessaz]

sylvanaerie wrote...

wouldn't be that hard to arrange. Maybe Howe intended on going after them as well and Fergus wouldn't see it coming till it was too late. (as Howe expected no survivors to warn Fergus).

As big a following as the Couslands have apparantly, how could he think that Fergus would not be able to get enough support from others to reclaim Highever? His father had almost enough power to become king after Maric died.

[Herr Uhl]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Howe also planned on no one escaping from Highever and being able to set the Couslands up, per what Duncan says to Cailan when you first meet him.

If he had planned on survivors, it would have been a really dumb plan.

[sylvanaerie]

I think Loghain was planning a coup in that he was putting things in motion to move against Cailan if he had to forestall the king from letting in any more Orlesians. I don't think he intended to kill Cailan but he would cut his losses with the king and get him out of the way if he had to. Howe might have suspected something funny was going to go down in Ostagar but he had to have had some contingency in mind for Fergus and his army (most of whom died in Ostagar anyway) or else have known that Loghain was planning on getting rid of Cailan's supporters/the Gray Wardens and siezed an opportunity to grab for some of the pie himself.

[cmessaz]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I think Loghain was planning a coup in that he was putting things in motion to move against Cailan if he had to forestall the king from letting in any more Orlesians. I don't think he intended to kill Cailan but he would cut his losses with the king and get him out of the way if he had to. Howe might have suspected something funny was going to go down in Ostagar but he had to have had some contingency in mind for Fergus and his army (most of whom died in Ostagar anyway) or else have known that Loghain was planning on getting rid of Cailan's supporters/the Gray Wardens and siezed an opportunity to grab for some of the pie himself.

So....Loghain planned to get rid of Cailen/Eamon and actually have people follow him? Not a very wise political move. And he would align with the murderer of the powerful Couslands? Even if people believed his "traitor" BS, would anyone really approve of  Howe?

Modifié par cmessaz, 22 mai 2010 - 04:26 .

[Lara Denton]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Howe also planned on no one escaping from Highever and being able to set the Couslands up, per what Duncan says to Cailan when you first meet him.

Okay, how beautiful is this shot of Alistair?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but having no survivors means he'll go unpunished?



P.S. See my sig.

[sylvanaerie]

anyway I am off to lunch...I have the day to myself and going to take full advantage of "mommy" time. Plus I just picked up the Calling this morning and kind of eager to read it. You guys have got me into wanting to see just what Maric is like.

Back in a couple hours

[sylvanaerie]

cmessaz wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I think Loghain was planning a coup in that he was putting things in motion to move against Cailan if he had to forestall the king from letting in any more Orlesians. I don't think he intended to kill Cailan but he would cut his losses with the king and get him out of the way if he had to. Howe might have suspected something funny was going to go down in Ostagar but he had to have had some contingency in mind for Fergus and his army (most of whom died in Ostagar anyway) or else have known that Loghain was planning on getting rid of Cailan's supporters/the Gray Wardens and siezed an opportunity to grab for some of the pie himself.

So....Loghain planned to get rid of Cailen/Eamon and actually have people follow him? Not a very wise political move.

Didn't say it was smart, I thought he was an idiot myself.  Don't know why everyone thinks he's such a great strategist. 

[cmessaz]

I don't either. I shouldn't have brought this up lol. Sorry.

Modifié par cmessaz, 22 mai 2010 - 04:27 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

sylvanaerie wrote...

D Gaider has said Howe acted on his own. Loghain had no part in the slaughter of the Couslands. He was as surprised as the king when he heard the news. Of course afterward, there was no excuse to cozy up to that viper and protect him aside from picking Howe's more nasty brain to get the dirty deeds done. I do believe some of what got proposed was Howe's ideas but Loghain offering his protection makes him as much as (if not more) culpable for what happened.
Coup before hand? No I think it was mroe a contingency plan and an attempt to be rid of the Gray Wardens (Orlesians) so Loghain could lead Ferelden against the Blight. More fool he, I would let him live if at the moment you find out just how to kill an archdemon the bastard turns to you and say "Damn I guess killing them all in Ostagar wasn't one of my better ideas..." Would be worth losing Alistair just to hear him admit what a collossal idiot he is.
As for Cailan, Loghain DID try to get him to NOT be front lines but by the time the battle took place he had washed his hands of Cailan;'s fate and rationalized it as "well its his fault the damn fool".

Remember, though, Loghain didn't believe it was a Blight until well towards the end of the game. He thought it was all some Orlesian conspiracy.  That was Loghain's paranoia: he knew about Cailan planning on inviting chevaliers to fight a Blight, a Blight Loghain felt was fake. Poisoning Eamon before hand, and delaying the Couslands, was a way of weakening Cailan's two biggest supporters. 

So no, I do not believe Loghain's initial plans were to seize the throne for himself, but to intimidate Cailan into seeing things his way, or, removing Cailan and having Anora rule alone.

However, I do agree that by rewarding Howe, Loghain remains a dead man in my HN playthroughs. Whoever came up with the plans, Loghain gave them his stamp of approval. He made the command descisions. He chose very unwisely.

Interestingly, it is not regicide nor poisoning Eamon I find reprehensible, and thus, reasons to kill him. Regicide is fair play as far as I'm concerned. Leaders are always fair game in the eternal war that is politics. And Eamon is a ****, I'm more pissed Loghain didn't kill him instead of sickening him.

Loghain's unforgivable crime was the sacrifice of thousands of good ferelden soldiers at Ostagar in his fool paranoia, and his further crimes of acting foolishly and dragging the country into civil war, costing even thousands more lives in completely unecessary collateral damage. And of course, seizing the throne as regent, instead of quietly advising his daughter, who was already capable. His hamfistedness ended up destructive and wasteful. A good leader would try hard to minimize unecessary collateral damage, since he is in desperate need of those human resources he is destroying.

He chose very poorly. I like the old bugger. It pains me to have to execute him, instead of sending him into exile or finding some other creative way to punish him for his hamfisted stupidity. However, in the playthroughs where i don't want him as my homeboy, loppin his head off seems the only option.

[Lara Denton]

cmessaz wrote...

I don't either. I opened a can of worms. Sorry.

Don't worry, for my part, I'll try to quietly step back in my corner.

[cmessaz]

To be clear: I am not suggesting that Loghain KNEW about the slaughter of the Couslands. I don't know if he actually planned to kill Cailen, but he DID plan something awful because Howe had to have known that there was little chance of Fergus returning with troops loyal to the Couslands. But I raise the white flag here, I should not have brought this up lol. Wrong thread.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Why has this turned into another Loghain debate? I wasn't here, so I am sure I didn't start it....unless someone mentioned my name.

[errant_knight]

cmessaz wrote...

OK, so I'm playing through the HN origin. If Arl Howe didn't know about what was going to happen at Ostagar, would he really do what he did? Knowing that Fergus and his men would eventually come back, and knowing the following that House Cousland has? It seems to me that he KNEW that Fergus would not be returning. Is my logic flawed here? So those who say that Loghain did not "plan" to abandon Cailen, how do you explain this?

Duncan says that with everyone in the castle dead, Howe could tell Cailan any story he wanted, probably that the Couslands were traitors. I'm sure that he had people in place to kill Fergus. That would be the argument.

I always figured that it might have meant that he expected Cailan to be dead, but David Gaider has said that Loghain made his decision on the battlefield. If that's the case, Howe couldn't have known that Cailan would die.

It may just be a case of Howe having an unrealistic perception of himself. He may have thought that everyone would believe what he said about the Couslands and that Fergus would become a hunted man. Howe probably didn't think of himself as a lying, skeevy bastard, nor of Bryce as the most honorable man in Ferelden.

[cmessaz]

Lol Too late KoP I yeild.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

cmessaz wrote...

To be clear: I am not suggesting that Loghain KNEW about the slaughter of the Couslands. I don't know if he actually planned to kill Cailen, but he DID plan something awful because Howe had to have known that there was little chance of Fergus returning with troops loyal to the Couslands. But I raise the white flag here, I should not have brought this up lol. Wrong thread.

Like I said, he was planning something. A major shake up. Either intimidate and bully Cailan to step down from his Orlesian love-fest and get with Loghain's way of thinking, or to remove Cailan from power via Landsmeet coup. However, things didn't quite work out the way he was expecting. My guess is that sometime in Ostagar was when he made his choice to abandon the king.

When the Warden goes to Ostagar, there are things that make me think he was making retreat plans before the battle.

[LadyDamodred]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Howe also planned on no one escaping from Highever and being able to set the Couslands up, per what Duncan says to Cailan when you first meet him.

If he had planned on survivors, it would have been a really dumb plan.

Poor phrasing on my part.  Let me try again.  The plan hinged on no survivors at all from within the castle b/c then his story wouldn't work.  Fergus could survive for a time, b/c without anyone else, whatever Howe had planned to frame them would just condemn Fergus as well.

[cmessaz]

errant_knight wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

OK, so I'm playing through the HN origin. If Arl Howe didn't know about what was going to happen at Ostagar, would he really do what he did? Knowing that Fergus and his men would eventually come back, and knowing the following that House Cousland has? It seems to me that he KNEW that Fergus would not be returning. Is my logic flawed here? So those who say that Loghain did not "plan" to abandon Cailen, how do you explain this?

Duncan says that with everyone in the castle dead, Howe could tell Cailan any story he wanted, probably that the Couslands were traitors. I'm sure that he had people in place to kill Fergus. That would be the argument.

I always figured that it might have meant that he expected Cailan to be dead, but David Gaider has said that Loghain made his decision on the battlefield. If that's the case, Howe couldn't have known that Cailan would die.

It may just be a case of Howe having an unrealistic perception of himself. He may have thought that everyone would believe what he said about the Couslands and that Fergus would become a hunted man. Howe probably didn't think of himself as a lying, skeevy bastard, nor of Bryce as the most honorable man in Ferelden.

I'm not talking about knowing that Cailen would die, I mean Fergus.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why has this turned into another Loghain debate? I wasn't here, so I am sure I didn't start it....unless someone mentioned my name.

Because no one had any Morrigan pics to lure you back in the thread, and we were rather missing your evil awesomeness.

[Lara Denton]

Here, have something really nice everybody and calm your spirits:


By rooster82

[cmessaz]

Anyway! I think we need to agree to disagree here. I don't want this huge debate. I started it and I'm sorry. I GIVE!

[Lady Jess]

cmessaz wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

D Gaider has said Howe acted on his own. Loghain had no part in the slaughter of the Couslands. He was as surprised as the king when he heard the news. Of course afterward, there was no excuse to cozy up to that viper and protect him aside from picking Howe's more nasty brain to get the dirty deeds done. I do believe some of what got proposed was Howe's ideas but Loghain offering his protection makes him as much as (if not more) culpable for what happened.
Coup before hand? No I think it was mroe a contingency plan and an attempt to be rid of the Gray Wardens (Orlesians) so Loghain could lead Ferelden against the Blight. More fool he, I would let him live if at the moment you find out just how to kill an archdemon the bastard turns to you and say "Damn I guess killing them all in Ostagar wasn't one of my better ideas..." Would be worth losing Alistair just to hear him admit what a collossal idiot he is.
As for Cailan, Loghain DID try to get him to NOT be front lines but by the time the battle took place he had washed his hands of Cailan;'s fate and rationalized it as "well its his fault the damn fool".

I know Loghain had no part in the attack. What I am saying is that Howe had to know that Fergus and Highever's armies would not be returning.

Not neccessarily. Look how far Ostagar is from Highever. By the time Fergus would have returned Howe had already Seized it, He could have fought to get it back, but Howe was conceited, arrogant, and likely thought it would be easy to fight him off.

[LadyDamodred]

laradenton wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Howe also planned on no one escaping from Highever and being able to set the Couslands up, per what Duncan says to Cailan when you first meet him.

Okay, how beautiful is this shot of Alistair?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but having no survivors means he'll go unpunished?



P.S. See my sig.

No survivors from the castle means Howe could tell Cailan the Couslands were traitors, ie, the story that gets told and results in their titles and lands being stripped after Ostagar.  So, yes, he would go unpunished, though I doubt he would be respected/loved by the rest of the nobility.  Bryce was very popular.

Yes, I saw it.    *high-fives*

[cmessaz]

People! I will never see another PoV. Lets get back to the squeeing.
[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:z-Q0OpJLsybbsM:http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/white-flag.jpg[/img]

Modifié par cmessaz, 22 mai 2010 - 04:37 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

laradenton wrote...

Here, have something really nice everybody and calm your spirits:


By rooster82

Balm for the soul.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why has this turned into another Loghain debate? I wasn't here, so I am sure I didn't start it....unless someone mentioned my name.

Because no one had any Morrigan pics to lure you back in the thread, and we were rather missing your evil awesomeness.

But my Loghainadar actually tells me which threads I shouldn't go to, cause I am tired of participating in those debates (and yet I want to at the same time).
 
So if you folk really miss me, Morrigan pics only. Preferrably her evil smirk one