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[Sandtigress]

Nu-Nu wrote...


Maric wasn't even a good father to his legitamate son, I don't think he has fatherly instincts.

See, I don't get where people get this from.  Maric withdrew for a few years after Rowan died and during that time, he was a terrible father to Cailan.  But afterwards, when he returned from the Deep Roads, I see no evidence that Maric was a poor father.  Cailan loved him immensely, the people still considered him to be Maric the Savior, we saw no bitterness towards his father at the end of the Stolen Throne when Cailan was 12.

In fact, Maric knew he was being a bad father, which someone who was just a bad father probably wouldn't think.  He was guilty over how he was treating Cailan, which is one reason why he left in the first place.

[Serissia]

Sandtigress wrote...
See, I don't get where people get this from.  Maric withdrew for a few years after Rowan died and during that time, he was a terrible father to Cailan.  But afterwards, when he returned from the Deep Roads, I see no evidence that Maric was a poor father.  Cailan loved him immensely, the people still considered him to be Maric the Savior, we saw no bitterness towards his father at the end of the Stolen Throne when Cailan was 12.

In fact, Maric knew he was being a bad father, which someone who was just a bad father probably wouldn't think.  He was guilty over how he was treating Cailan, which is one reason why he left in the first place.

Cailan was only 5 during TC.  Where did you get 12 at the end of TST? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Serissia wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't see why in DA, charismatic men have to be lacking in the intellect departement. Many real life figures were both very smart and very inspiring to others. Intellect is one of the requirements of what constitutes a great leader, imo.

Well, I wouldn't say either Alistair or Maric are actually stupid.  Even though Maric was King it's not like he had a plethora of choices when it came to choosing who would raise his illegitimate bastard child.  He probably chose Eamon because he trusted the Guerrins. 

Why not give them to a common family like Fiona suggested? It's clear he is abandoning his child either way, so might as well do it properly.

I didn't say they were completely stupid, but they both don't strike me as smart either. The brains behind Maric were clearly Loghain's and to a certain extent, Rowan. 
And Alistair was not in a position to decide anything before he is king, so we can't see him acting like an idiot, except for the one decision he makes in the Landsmeet.   

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sandtigress wrote...
He was guilty over how he was treating Cailan, which is one reason why he left in the first place.

So he thinks that the best way to remedy this is not to get closer to his son, but to actually leave him and die?
That makes sense how?

[LadyDamodred]

I realize a lot has been discussed, but I want to throw in my two cents and address some things.

KoP:  From everything we see in the books, Maric didn't dishonor Rowan's memory by sleeping with Fiona.  What happened between them in the Deep Roads sort of just happened.  I don't get the feeling at all that he had even slept with anyone since Rowan's death.  As for getting remarried to have sex...  To me, that seems even more disrespectful to her memory.  To make another woman your queen, to share your life and that of her son, simply because you have needs seems...worse than simply seeking release with no emotional attachment, which is not what he had with Fiona.

Maric:
Maric did make mistakes.  A lot of them.  It was something he knew and acknowledged.  After TC, he turns around, throwing himself into and embracing his role of king and father.  I think part of the problem with Cailan is not that Maric was a horrible father, but that after the events of the TC, he may have been too indulgent with Cailan.  Granted, we don't know how Cailan was raised, but parents who feel guilty often overcompensate by not being strict with their children.  And Maric would have felt guilty on two counts:  1)  Being willing to leave Cailan an orphan and 2) Leaving Alistair as basically an orphan.

As for Maric and his relationship with Moira...  Idolizing your parent is a bad thing.  We see from TST that Maric's view of her is as a queen who is also his mother, not as a mother who is also a queen.  There is a difference.  He loved her and she him, no question, but I don't think she was very much of a mother in the motherly sense.  When you idolize a parent, you fail to see their faults.  Maric had never seen what a normal, loving family dynamic is supposed to be.  That tends to profoundly affect people.

People find it odd or wrong that Maric didn't play a bigger role in Alistair's upbringing, or step in to do something.  I don't, not really.  If he cannot acknowledge him, then trying to interfere will only raise suspicions and possibly cause further resentment on Alistair's part.  Right now, he believes his father didn't care about him, and has come to terms with it in his own way.  But if Maric had interfered, what message does that say?  "I care, but only a little bit.  I don't care enough to actually treat you like a son."  That would probably be way more harmful to Alistair.  At least like this, he doesn't really have to compare how his father felt about him and Cailan because there is nothing to compare.  Also, Maric probably feels pretty guilty and people tend to stay away/not think about things that make them feel guilty, especially if they don't see a way to truly fix the underlying problem.

Eamon:
I do think Eamon cared about Alistair, but his feelings are complicated.  It could be that Maric asked Eamon to have Alistair completely raised as a commoner, but Eamon couldn't bring himself to have no involvement with the boy, most likely out of a love for Maric.  He overcompensates by laying on the "You're not a prince, you have no claim to the throne, you're a commoner." way too thick.  To be fair, I have no idea how you strike the right kind of balance with that.  Eamon made mistake, and he knows this.  I think when Ostagar happened, he was probably kicking himself.  Alistair is so much like his father, as in being a good man, that wouldn't have ever been a threat to the throne.  And now as the only viable candidate to challenge Loghain and Anora, he is woefully unprepared.  That's how I always interpreted his "The unthinkable has happened/If we had any other choice" lines.  He knows this solution isn't happy for anyone.

Keep in mind, most of these characters have no idea what a normal family looks like.  Ironically, Loghain might be the best equipped because he at least had a happy childhood with an intact family.  And look what he ended up doing to his.  These are all broken people, sometimes broken in profound ways.  They are deeply flawed and imperfect, but still compelling, understandable and sympathetic.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't see why in DA, charismatic men have to be lacking in the intellect departement. Many real life figures were both very smart and very inspiring to others. Intellect is one of the requirements of what constitutes a great leader, imo.

I think that's your interpretation and, frankly, your bias against them.  What I see is that (certain) people underrate the Theirins because they are outwardly charming pretty-boys, not that they actually are that.  Maric united the kingdom and very capably ran it his entire life.  Cailan may well have done the same, except he made a military miscalculation and trusted his father's and his closest advisor.  Is that a lack of intellect?  Alistair is self-deprecating and inexperienced, but is educated and when hardened, continues to educate himself.

[MelRedux]

Serissia wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
See, I don't get where people get this from.  Maric withdrew for a few years after Rowan died and during that time, he was a terrible father to Cailan.  But afterwards, when he returned from the Deep Roads, I see no evidence that Maric was a poor father.  Cailan loved him immensely, the people still considered him to be Maric the Savior, we saw no bitterness towards his father at the end of the Stolen Throne when Cailan was 12.

In fact, Maric knew he was being a bad father, which someone who was just a bad father probably wouldn't think.  He was guilty over how he was treating Cailan, which is one reason why he left in the first place.

Cailan was only 5 during TC.  Where did you get 12 at the end of TST? 

Someone (a nanny or something, can't remember) is telling the story of TST to Cailen....he was 12.  The whole things was kind of a flashback.

[Serissia]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Why not give them to a common family like Fiona suggested? It's clear he is abandoning his child either way, so might as well do it properly.

I didn't say they were completely stupid, but they both don't strike me as smart either. The brains behind Maric were clearly Loghain's and to a certain extent, Rowan. 
And Alistair was not in a position to decide anything before he is king, so we can't see him acting like an idiot, except for the one decision he makes in the Landsmeet.   

I don't think that Maric wanted to break all ties with his second son.  If he gave the child to Eamon he would be able to recieve word on the child's well being from either Eamon or Duncan.  If the child had been given to a common family questions might of been brought up if and/or blackmail. 

Additional regardless if Alistair was meant for the throne or not he was still one of Maric's child and a sucessor of sorts.  This is probably why Alistair was educated at all. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
KoP:  From everything we see in the books, Maric didn't dishonor Rowan's memory by sleeping with Fiona.  What happened between them in the Deep Roads sort of just happened.  I don't get the feeling at all that he had even slept with anyone since Rowan's death.  As for getting remarried to have sex...  To me, that seems even more disrespectful to her memory.  To make another woman your queen, to share your life and that of her son, simply because you have needs seems...worse than simply seeking release with no emotional attachment, which is not what he had with Fiona.

I didn't say he should remarry to have sex. I said if he is really feeling emotionally lonely and that he needs someone to love, and be loved in return, then he should marry. And I was under the impression that it was more than just sex with Fiona.

Maric dishonored Rowan with Katriel and he did it again with Fiona, the latter being worse as he had married Rowan and concieved a child he barely cares about with her. That's the way I see it at least. In understand some people might have different conceptions of honor. 

And Loghain didn't do anything bad to his family.

[MelRedux]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
He was guilty over how he was treating Cailan, which is one reason why he left in the first place.

So he thinks that the best way to remedy this is not to get closer to his son, but to actually leave him and die?
That makes sense how?

That's just psychology....in his mind, he believes since he has been a bad father, that it is better for Cailan if he jsut leaves and dies.  While this may not be the best option, he really believes that it is.  This thought process is actually quite common in humans, and they don't realize they're doing it.  It's a fear of trying and failing, where if you don't try, and you fail...well, at least you weren't trying.

Like I said, isn't the ideal thought process, but I wouldn't necessarily call it weak or uncaring. It's human nature.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't see why in DA, charismatic men have to be lacking in the intellect departement. Many real life figures were both very smart and very inspiring to others. Intellect is one of the requirements of what constitutes a great leader, imo.

I think that's your interpretation and, frankly, your bias against them.  What I see is that (certain) people underrate the Theirins because they are outwardly charming pretty-boys, not that they actually are that.  Maric united the kingdom and very capably ran it his entire life.  Cailan may well have done the same, except he made a military miscalculation and trusted his father's and his closest advisor.  Is that a lack of intellect?  Alistair is self-deprecating and inexperienced, but is educated and when hardened, continues to educate himself.

Loghain was the mastermind behind Maric. Maric provided the charms, Loghain provided the brains. Rowan as well. 
The one ruling was Anora and not Cailan, even Eamon admits it. And no, Cailan ends up doing the opposite of what his father in law is telling him to do. Not to mention his glory mongering. Yes, it's a lack of intellect.

 Alsitair is definately better than Cailan when hardened. But he still doesn't strike me as smart. Not saying he is a complete idiot (except when in the landsmeet), but intellect does not seem to be his forte to me. There are definately smarter people out there, companion and otherwise. 

And what bias? Couldn't it that my opinion was formed after I saw them in action and not before?   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2010 - 04:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mel_Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
He was guilty over how he was treating Cailan, which is one reason why he left in the first place.

So he thinks that the best way to remedy this is not to get closer to his son, but to actually leave him and die?
That makes sense how?

That's just psychology....in his mind, he believes since he has been a bad father, that it is better for Cailan if he jsut leaves and dies.  While this may not be the best option, he really believes that it is.  This thought process is actually quite common in humans, and they don't realize they're doing it.  It's a fear of trying and failing, where if you don't try, and you fail...well, at least you weren't trying.

Like I said, isn't the ideal thought process, but I wouldn't necessarily call it weak or uncaring. It's human nature.

Then let me tell you I don't want to have a father like this at all.
A father who thinks it's better for his child to be abandonned and orphaned, because getting himself to care and be a good father is too much effort. 

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
KoP:  From everything we see in the books, Maric didn't dishonor Rowan's memory by sleeping with Fiona.  What happened between them in the Deep Roads sort of just happened.  I don't get the feeling at all that he had even slept with anyone since Rowan's death.  As for getting remarried to have sex...  To me, that seems even more disrespectful to her memory.  To make another woman your queen, to share your life and that of her son, simply because you have needs seems...worse than simply seeking release with no emotional attachment, which is not what he had with Fiona.

I didn't say he should remarry to have sex. I said if he is really feeling emotionally lonely and that he needs someone to love, and be loved in return, then he should marry. And I was under the impression that it was more than just sex with Fiona.

Maric dishonored Rowan with Katriel and he did it again with Fiona, the latter being worse as he had married Rowan and concieved a child he barely cares about with her. That's the way I see it at least. In understand some people might have different conceptions of honor. 

And Loghain didn't do anything bad to his family.

I don't think Maric was looking for someone to love.  He was lonely, yes, but he wasn't looking to fill the void, in part b/c I don't think he felt he deserved to.  What happened with Fiona just happened, and he was the last one expecting to feel the way he did about her.

You can say Maric dishonored Rowan by falling in love with Katriel, and I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with it.  But how is what happened between Maric and Fiona disrespecting Rowan?  I would say wanting to die, being willing to leave their son an orphan, is way more disrespectful to her memory than falling in love.

Loghain abandoned his family.  He can chalk it up to whatever excuse he wants, but he did it.  And kids pick up on that, especially smart kids like Anora.  I think Loghain loved her, but he was a pretty terrible father.

[Herr Uhl]

Mel_Redux wrote...

That's just psychology....in his mind, he believes since he has been a bad father, that it is better for Cailan if he jsut leaves and dies.  While this may not be the best option, he really believes that it is.  This thought process is actually quite common in humans, and they don't realize they're doing it.  It's a fear of trying and failing, where if you don't try, and you fail...well, at least you weren't trying.

Like I said, isn't the ideal thought process, but I wouldn't necessarily call it weak or uncaring. It's human nature.

Yes, stupid people also think stupid things and think that they are smart things.

Him being depressed is not a valid excuse.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Loghain was the mastermind behind Maric. Maric provided the charms, Loghain provided the brains. Rowan as well. 
The one ruling was Anora and not Cailan, even Eamon admits it. And no, Cailan ends up doing the opposite of what his father in law is telling him to do. Not to mention his glory mongering. Yes, it's a lack of intellect.

Eamon says that Anora was a "capable administrator," not a ruler.  Considering that the kingdom dissolves into ruin the minute Cailan dies, and really that it had already begun to dissolve when Maric died, I consider your post simply further proof of what I'm talking about- underrating the Theirins.  And of taking the Mac Tirs' arrogant self-promotion as fact.

I don't discount that Loghain and Maric made a good team.  That's obvious.  I don't see their teamwork quite as cut and dried fashion as you do, i.e "Loghain is the brains and Maric is the window dressing."

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mai 2010 - 04:44 .

[errant_knight]

Nu-Nu wrote...

I see no one is actually angry at the person who's real fault this is and that's Maric, Alistair's own father. Yeah it was for the good of the country but surely he would have been able to secretly provide provisions for Alistair and made sure he had a decent enough life in secret. But he left it all to Eamon to decide his fate.

What Eamon did as hard as it might seem to some is better then just abandoning him completely like his father did. It's obvious that Eamon ended up caring deeply for Alistair or he would never have taken him in the first place and risked his reputation. Alistair was very happy when he was with Eamon so he must have done some good.

 Me, I blame Maric at least as much as Eamon. More, really. Alistair was his responsibility. Eamon strikes me as a man who isn't all that good with children, and for whom protecting Cailan's ascension to the throne is primary, but not unfeeling. The locket thing shows that, but I think the golem doll shows it even more clearly. I don't think Eamon is the kind of guy who would do much shopping at the Wonders of Thedas, which means that he went there entirely to pick up a toy for a little boy whom he knows is interested in magical things.

I see the fact that he says so little about Alistair's execution as beiing mainly a matter of game mechanics. No NPC , except for companions, ever telly the PC off for game decisions.

Cailan was king for how long? Five years? That means that Maric was alive long enough to know not only what Alistair's situation was, but also that he was sent to the Chantry, and was unhappy there.

Note: I ignore the books. If it's not in the game, of confirmed there, well, it's too open to conjecture to be meaningful. The architect apparently changed, so there's no reason to think other things didn't as well.

Also, as a side note, I don't think Alistair is even remotely stupid. The only one who says so is Morrigan, and she does so before she's spent any real time with him. And they hate each other's guts. When asked what he liked about becoming a templar, he says the education, mostly, but also the disciplined training. People who are...challenged intellectually don't enjoy education, they find it a source of frustration. Nor do they usually enjoy training that requires patience and self-discipline. I also think that people who are witty must also be bright. It's not like Alistair's humor runs to fart jokes.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 mai 2010 - 04:55 .

[MelRedux]

And what about Loghain sleeping with Rowan, knowing that they are betrothed? Is Rowan not disrespecting Maric? Is Loghain not disrespecting Maric?

[Herr Uhl]

Mel_Redux wrote...

And what about Loghain sleeping with Rowan, knowing that they are betrothed? Is Rowan not disrespecting Maric? Is Loghain not disrespecting Maric?

Yes, of course he is.

[Serissia]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Alsitair is definately better than Cailan when hardened. But he still doesn't strike me as smart. Not saying he is a complete idiot (except when in the landsmeet), but intellect does not seem to be his forte to me. There are definately a lot smarter people out there, companion and otherwise.

I have mixed emotions on this because I generally play a stronge female character that takes over and does what needs to be done.  I believe even a hardened Alistair would look to the guidance of his wife and Eamon.  He's so incredibly and woefully ill prepaid to become King. 

[MelRedux]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

That's just psychology....in his mind, he believes since he has been a bad father, that it is better for Cailan if he jsut leaves and dies.  While this may not be the best option, he really believes that it is.  This thought process is actually quite common in humans, and they don't realize they're doing it.  It's a fear of trying and failing, where if you don't try, and you fail...well, at least you weren't trying.

Like I said, isn't the ideal thought process, but I wouldn't necessarily call it weak or uncaring. It's human nature.

Yes, stupid people also think stupid things and think that they are smart things.

Him being depressed is not a valid excuse.

Like I said, it is not the best thought process, nor is it a valid excuse.  But it is understandable, and I don't think it's weak.  I'd call it misguided.

[Addai]

Serissia wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Alsitair is definately better than Cailan when hardened. But he still doesn't strike me as smart. Not saying he is a complete idiot (except when in the landsmeet), but intellect does not seem to be his forte to me. There are definately a lot smarter people out there, companion and otherwise.

I have mixed emotions on this because I generally play a stronge female character that takes over and does what needs to be done.  I believe even a hardened Alistair would look to the guidance of his wife and Eamon.  He's so incredibly and woefully ill prepaid to become King. 

Well even Loghain and Maric had Rowan to look to, though she seems to have taken a more domestic turn as queen.  But you can't discount her role and that of the other Guerrins for bringing the kingdom together.  I would think that there are very few rulers who do it all on their own.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mai 2010 - 04:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
You can say Maric dishonored Rowan by falling in love with Katriel, and I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with it.  But how is what happened between Maric and Fiona disrespecting Rowan?  I would say wanting to die, being willing to leave their son an orphan, is way more disrespectful to her memory than falling in love.

All of what he did is an offense to Rowan. Falling in love, having sex and not marrying is also disrespecting Rowan and disrespecting his son.
If my father did this, I would have thought the same. If he needs to marry, I would understand, but to play around like that is just disrespectful imo.
Maric had no respect to his dead wife's memory, to his son, to his position as King and if he did this purely for physical needs, then no respect for Fiona either. 

LadyDamodred wrote...
Loghain abandoned his family.  He can chalk it up to whatever excuse he wants, but he did it.  And kids pick up on that, especially smart kids like Anora.  I think Loghain loved her, but he was a pretty terrible father.

Seeing how Anora is a great woman, I would say Loghain succeeded pretty well in beign a good father. But since all of you hate Anora, I won't expect you to agree.

[Sandtigress]

Mel_Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
He was guilty over how he was treating Cailan, which is one reason why he left in the first place.

So he thinks that the best way to remedy this is not to get closer to his son, but to actually leave him and die?
That makes sense how?

That's just psychology....in his mind, he believes since he has been a bad father, that it is better for Cailan if he jsut leaves and dies.  While this may not be the best option, he really believes that it is.  This thought process is actually quite common in humans, and they don't realize they're doing it.  It's a fear of trying and failing, where if you don't try, and you fail...well, at least you weren't trying.

Like I said, isn't the ideal thought process, but I wouldn't necessarily call it weak or uncaring. It's human nature.

Yes, I agree with this, for the most part.

And Maric does wake up to the idiocy of his behavior and returns from the Deep Roads ready to take on all his responsibilities again - as king and as father.  He fell for a little while, and got back up.  I always figured he was a better man for it.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Maric had no respect to his dead wife's memory, to his son, to his position as King and if he did this purely for physical needs, then no respect for Fiona either. 

It was not purely physical.  It says that Fiona looks at him and sees the loneliness in his eyes.  And let's recall again that it was she, not he, who initiated the physical part.  After they each saved each other's lives.

Give me a break.  Is it so hard to understand?

Seeing how Anora is a great woman, I would say Loghain succeeded pretty well in beign a good father. But since all of you hate Anora, I won't expect you to agree.

Anora allows her adoration of her father to undermine her own rule both before and in some cases after Loghain's death.  Perhaps if he had been more present in her life as a child, she would not have put him on a pedestal.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Loghain was the mastermind behind Maric. Maric provided the charms, Loghain provided the brains. Rowan as well. 
The one ruling was Anora and not Cailan, even Eamon admits it. And no, Cailan ends up doing the opposite of what his father in law is telling him to do. Not to mention his glory mongering. Yes, it's a lack of intellect.

Eamon says that Anora was a "capable administrator," not a ruler.  Considering that the kingdom dissolves into ruin the minute Cailan dies, and really that it had already begun to dissolve when Maric died, I consider your post simply further proof of what I'm talking about- underrating the Theirins.  And of taking the Mac Tirs' arrogant self-promotion as fact.

I don't discount that Loghain and Maric made a good team.  That's obvious.  I don't see their teamwork quite as cut and dried fashion as you do, i.e "Loghain is the brains and Maric is the window dressing."

Being a capable administrator requires intellect.
Cailan was a figurehead and no one is denying it and all nobles know this. When Anora says she was the one ruliong, Eamon doesn't  contradict her and says Anora was always two steps ahead of Cailan. 
And  to assume that the civil war broke out because Cailan no longer provided his brilliant intellect is laughable. Even Duncan seems to be unimpressed by Cailan's intellect and everyone was looking at Loghain to make the difference, not Cailan.

I did not underrate the Thereins vis a vis their status as strong figureheads and a strong symbol. That doesn't mean they have a good intellect. Far from it, none of them managed to impress.