60083 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Technically, she did try to better the lives of her people (the Ferelden tribes) and of the elves. Violence was used to free the elves and for the most part, it worked and they got their homeland. Until the elves decided to be the morons that they are and got themselves destroyed again, but that was later.

And he is trying to topple insitutions, whether it is to destroy the Circle / Templars, or destroy the Alienage system.

Technically Andraste was beating foreign invaders back to their homelands in attempt to let her own people live free. Much like Loghain was beating foreign invaders back to Orlais so his people could be free.

The catch with trying to 'free' the mages and/or elves is, the foreign invaders are actually the locals. They can't be forced 'back to their home country' because they are in their home country.

Most revolutions if not all involve toppling local institutions. It's not an impossibility.

Furthermore, Andraste was doing more than just freeing her homeland. She was on the offensive intending to destroy the Imperium completely. Malferath was the one who seemingly didn't care about this, hence why he agreed with the Imperium to leave them alone when he gave them Andraste.
I personally believe that part of Malferath's motivation when he betrayed Andraste was because he did not share her ambition to topple the Imperium completely and perhaps felt she was overstepping their limits.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2010 - 12:46 .

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes it is. Human nature doesn't change just because of the presence of magic, dragons, ect.

Human nature changes all the time for reasons far less significant than magic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Its an argument as to why you should jsut suck it up and accept thats how the game works. Thats the given reality of it. Whining on the boards about wanting to be queen knowing the lore doesnt' cover it is pointless. You want to whine, why not do so to the writers. Maybe they will enact a change just for you?

Please, not that bullsh!t again. These boards are meant to discuss the game. If you don´t want to do so maybe you shouldn´t be in a Dragon Age forum.

The counter argument would be to open your own thread about this and not derail this thread.

I am  taking the initiative to tell you this before they do, as I will probably say it nicer than others

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


The counter argument would be to open your own thread about this and not derail this thread.

I am  taking the initiative to tell you this before they do, as I will probably say it nicer than others

True:P



Though it is hard for me to top my derailing skills. Yesterday I got us to sex robots after all:devil:

This discussion has a relation to DAO, at least:police:

[Thor Rand Al]

So is there anyway of finding what mod could be interfering with my other mods besides uninstalling all of them? Like the textures on some of my armors, blood showing up in a cutscene on my armor when I know there wasn't before the cutscene, my skin has that plastic look to them n on other's I've got speghetti for arms lol. I know somethings interferring but I have no idea what. It's irritating because it makes for bad screenshots lol

[sylvanaerie]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes it is. Human nature doesn't change just because of the presence of magic, dragons, ect.

Human nature changes all the time for reasons far less significant than magic.

Your argument is for why you should be allowed to change things using magic.  Human nature hasn't changed in hundreds of years.  We are still prejudiced, greedy, unfair people.  Thats the way life works.  One person won't change that.  Andraste retook Ferelden for her people but she didn't change the basic nature of humanity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes it is. Human nature doesn't change just because of the presence of magic, dragons, ect.

Human nature changes all the time for reasons far less significant than magic.

Your argument is for why you should be allowed to change things using magic.  Human nature hasn't changed in hundreds of years.  We are still prejudiced, greedy, unfair people.  Thats the way life works.  One person won't change that.  Andraste retook Ferelden for her people but she didn't change the basic nature of humanity.

And no one should pretend to want to change that. Historically speaking, those who sought to change human nature and create a "new man" because humanity isn't good enough for them, have ended up doing more ill than good.

David Hume: "We ought to take man as we find him".

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Most revolutions if not all involve topple local insitutions. It's not an impossibility.

Certainly but it's not institutions that's the "enemy", it's the general population. This isn't to say the mindsets of populations cannot be changed through bloodbaths and terror but that's exactly what it's going to be -- bloodbaths and terror. At some point it can warrant a stop to look back and reconsider if the "greater good" it's done for is indeed (still) greater.

Furthermore, Andraste was doing more than just freeing her homeland. She was on the offensive intending to destroy the Imperium completely. Malferath was the one who seemingly didn't care about this, hence why he agreed with the Imperium to leave them alone when he gave them Andraste.
I personally believe that part of Malferath's motivation when he betrayed Andraste was because he did not share her ambition to topple the Imperium completely and perhaps felt she was overstepping their limits.   

I'm guessing she was doing it to ensure the safety of her people -- the same thing like killing someone who intends to kill you, but on country scale. I don't remember it pretty well now but from the Gauntlet i got impression it ended because her husband didn't appreciate her being the only one who'd receive the glory and attention, combined with the view that it'd be much more difficult to defeat the Imperium at their own home -- the logistics of supply lines and all that. So when a deal was offered he took it as good enough bargain for both personal and strategic reasons.

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 juin 2010 - 12:54 .

[MelRedux]

Well, I finally got my own:


It's still not nearly as good as kmeade's original :

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 01 juin 2010 - 01:00 .

[LadyDamodred]

sylvanaerie wrote...


Lady D sent me her morph.  I use it sometimes for Lulz.

*grins*  I'm hiding b/c I'm afraid if the conversation right now.  It's making my head hurt.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Most revolutions if not all involve topple local insitutions. It's not an impossibility.

Certainly but it's not institutions that's the "enemy", it's the general population. This isn't to say the mindsets of populations cannot be changed through bloodbaths and terror but that's exactly what it's going to be -- bloodbaths and terror. At some point it can warrant a stop to look back and reconsider if the "greater good" it's done for is indeed (still) greater.

Of course, but Tirigon wants that and the game doesn't allow him. That's all my point. I am not endorsing his point of view.

In addition, use of terror and bloodbath is not always necessary to change mindsets. But Tirigon wants it done fast so yes, I agree it will require that.

I'm guessing she was doing it to ensure the safety of her people -- the same thing like killing someone who intends to kill you, but on country scale. I don't remember it pretty well now but from the Gauntlet i got impression it ended because her husband didn't appreciate her being the only one who'd receive the glory and attention, combined with the view that it'd be much more difficult to defeat the Imperium at their own home -- the logistics of supply lines and all that. So when a deal was offered he took it as good enough bargain for both personal and strategic reasons.

I think it's more. If the Maker rejected blood magic and all of Tevinter and their religion and gods, then Andraste was basically attempting to destroy the Maker's enemies who corrupted the Golden City and not only her people's enemies. But that's guessing as we know little about Andraste. We do know that she was trying to make the Maker (sounds weird, make the Maker) regain faith in humanity, and perhaps she thought destroying Tevinter would do that. 
 

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Most revolutions if not all involve topple local insitutions. It's not an impossibility.

Certainly but it's not institutions that's the "enemy", it's the general population. This isn't to say the mindsets of populations cannot be changed through bloodbaths and terror but that's exactly what it's going to be -- bloodbaths and terror. At some point it can warrant a stop to look back and reconsider if the "greater good" it's done for is indeed (still) greater.

Of course, but Tirigon wants that and the game doesn't allow him. That's all my point. I am not endorsing his point of view.

In addition, use of terror and bloodbath is not always necessary to change mindsets. But Tirigon wants it done fast so yes, I agree it will require that.

I'm guessing she was doing it to ensure the safety of her people -- the same thing like killing someone who intends to kill you, but on country scale. I don't remember it pretty well now but from the Gauntlet i got impression it ended because her husband didn't appreciate her being the only one who'd receive the glory and attention, combined with the view that it'd be much more difficult to defeat the Imperium at their own home -- the logistics of supply lines and all that. So when a deal was offered he took it as good enough bargain for both personal and strategic reasons.

I think it's more. If the Maker rejected blood magic and all of Tevinter and their religion and gods, then Andraste was basically attempting to destroy the Maker's enemies who corrupted the Golden City and not only her people's enemies. But that's guessing as we know little about Andraste. We do know that she was trying to make the Maker (sounds weird, make the Maker) regain faith in humanity, and perhaps she thought destroying Tevinter would do that. 
 

Its a shame you can't talk more to the Guardian about her.  A lot of mythology has a basis in truth.  Who is to say the Tevinters DIDN"T find the golden city (or something equivalent) and corrupt it creating the first darkspawns.  The mirror in the Dalish origin is Tevinter and has the same corruption as the Darkspawns.  Thinking it may all be hidden under chantry rhetoric but there could be a kernel of truth there.

[Sarah1281]

I'm guessing she was doing it to ensure the safety of her people -- the same thing like killing someone who intends to kill you, but on country scale. I don't remember it pretty well now but from the Gauntlet i got impression it ended because her husband didn't appreciate her being the only one who'd receive the glory and attention, combined with the view that it'd be much more difficult to defeat the Imperium at their own home -- the logistics of supply lines and all that. So when a deal was offered he took it as good enough bargain for both personal and strategic reasons.

I'm not sure I'd trust the echoes on that front. This is basically a love shrine to Andraste so of COURSE they're not going to have an image representing her husband have a better reason than simple jealousy at how awesome Andraste (who everyone in game treats as a Mary Sue) was and how his passionate love for her couldn't compare with the passionate love the Maker had for her.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think it's more. If the Maker rejected blood magic and all of Tevinter and their religion and gods, then Andraste was basically attempting to destroy the Maker's enemies who corrupted the Golden City and not only her people's enemies. But that's guessing as we know little about Andraste. We do know that she was trying to make the Maker (sounds weird, make the Maker) regain faith in humanity, and perhaps she thought destroying Tevinter would do that. 
 

Hmm yes, can't really see a reason to argue with that; it could certainly work as her possible motivation, too.

[mellifera]

LadyDamodred wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...


Lady D sent me her morph.  I use it sometimes for Lulz.

*grins*  I'm hiding b/c I'm afraid if the conversation right now.  It's making my head hurt.

Shall we head off to the other corner again? I brought ice cream this time.

[sylvanaerie]

yukidama wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...


Lady D sent me her morph.  I use it sometimes for Lulz.

*grins*  I'm hiding b/c I'm afraid if the conversation right now.  It's making my head hurt.

Shall we head off to the other corner again? I brought ice cream this time.

Can I have some? My head hurts so much even my hair hurts

[mellifera]

Ice cream for everyone!

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not sure I'd trust the echoes on that front. This is basically a love shrine to Andraste so of COURSE they're not going to have an image representing her husband have a better reason than simple jealousy at how awesome Andraste (who everyone in game treats as a Mary Sue) was and how his passionate love for her couldn't compare with the passionate love the Maker had for her.

Possibly... i wouldn't discard jealousy as the actual reason though. Yes, it is 'simple' but it's also very powerful emotion and can definitely be valid for the person affected by it. Or to put it differently, i don't think less of the man if i accept it indeed was what drove him -- that'd be just him being human, and Flemeth's comment on human nature fits pretty well here, i think.

[sylvanaerie]

wow thats a lot of ice cream lol

Okay going to go watch Kung Fu Panda with my daughter. Peace out!

[LadyDamodred]

yukidama wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...


Lady D sent me her morph.  I use it sometimes for Lulz.

*grins*  I'm hiding b/c I'm afraid if the conversation right now.  It's making my head hurt.

Shall we head off to the other corner again? I brought ice cream this time.

Most excellent of you!  *grabs the jimmies and whipped cream and joins Yuki in the corner*

[Sarah1281]

yukidama wrote...

Ice cream for everyone!

I officially  you now.

[LadyDamodred]

yukidama wrote...

Ice cream for everyone!

Is that ice cream or gelato?

[Serissia]

yukidama wrote...

Ice cream for everyone!

Wow, those look like some intense ice creams. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

yukidama wrote...

Ice cream for everyone!

No plain vanilla?

[Lady Jess]

Tirigon wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

I've spent 17 years drooling over my huband, 8 now as a stay at home wife. I find it pretty exciting.

But you have internet to discuss fictional characters and whatever, my mage doesn´t

Uhhh...no actually, before 2000 we did not. In fact at one point we had no cable tv, no phone, AND no internet. Even after we had internet and all that stuff, nothing but nothing is a substitute for him. Nor ever will be. And trust me, you learn that real fast when he's gone for 3 months to a year at a time.