60083 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

sylvanaerie wrote...


Your argument is for why you should be allowed to change things using magic.  Human nature hasn't changed in hundreds of years.  We are still prejudiced, greedy, unfair people.  Thats the way life works.  One person won't change that.  Andraste retook Ferelden for her people but she didn't change the basic nature of humanity.

But that is no reason not to improve at least a bit.

For example people hating elves: You can´t make them like elves except by example, but you could at least pass a law that gives elves equal rights and makes sure rapists like Vaughan get punished, not people defending agains them like it happened to the Warden in the CE origin.

Or for mages yu could at least give mages the right to leave the circle at will unless they have committed a crime that shows they need to be kept in prison, and you could give noble mages the right to inherit titles. They would still need to be trained in the circle but after successful training they could go back in their former position.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...


Your argument is for why you should be allowed to change things using magic.  Human nature hasn't changed in hundreds of years.  We are still prejudiced, greedy, unfair people.  Thats the way life works.  One person won't change that.  Andraste retook Ferelden for her people but she didn't change the basic nature of humanity.

But that is no reason not to improve at least a bit.

For example people hating elves: You can´t make them like elves except by example, but you could at least pass a law that gives elves equal rights and makes sure rapists like Vaughan get punished, not people defending agains them like it happened to the Warden in the CE origin.

Or for mages yu could at least give mages the right to leave the circle at will unless they have committed a crime that shows they need to be kept in prison, and you could give noble mages the right to inherit titles. They would still need to be trained in the circle but after successful training they could go back in their former position.

Your first suggestion can work, especially since Ferelden has that basis, as it considers the elves as citizens, even if it's just formally. Vaughan cannot claim that raping an elf is his right, unlike a Chevalier in Orlais who can claim that raping any peasant is within his rights.

Your second suggestion is a lot more difficult as it encroaches on religious grounds. But you can still request from Alistair or Anora to free the mages from Templar supervision, so I don't see the problem.
 
Both these cases can be slightly remedied. Alistair tries to be better towards the elves and you can request to both Alsitair or Anora to free the mages in Ferelden. So it seems to me that you are more concerned with being Queen than with changing the world. Which you can still try to do if you opt to be chancellor. So I don't see the problem.

An elf or mage Queen is simply out of the question, as the Landsmeet that has shown itself willing to stand against anyone no matter their accomplishments, will never accept this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2010 - 01:29 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Certainly but it's not institutions that's the "enemy", it's the general population. This isn't to say the mindsets of populations cannot be changed through bloodbaths and terror but that's exactly what it's going to be -- bloodbaths and terror. At some point it can warrant a stop to look back and reconsider if the "greater good" it's done for is indeed (still) greater.

Of course, but Tirigon wants that and the game doesn't allow him. That's all my point. I am not endorsing his point of view.

In addition, use of terror and bloodbath is not always necessary to change mindsets. But Tirigon wants it done fast so yes, I agree it will require that.

You are making the problem bigger than it is... In fact, most people across Ferelden don´t hate elves or mages, they just mistrust them because they don´t know them and are fed lies, but only very few (like Vaughan) really hate them and NOONE has a sick agenda to extinct them.

You will see that, in fact, the only real "racists" are the Dalish, and even they soften up when you help them.

That boy in Lothering who lost his mother is a perfect example: If you help him he asks if you´re really an elf because he was told that elves aren´t nice. He doesn´t hate elves, he just hasn´t learned any better.

And even among the Chantry there are people who see these injustices with concern, and people like the priest in the CE origin or the Templar leader in Lothering who try to help the people.

You don´t have to fight the people, you only have to fight the institutions. The people notice that it was an elf / mage who saved Ferelden, that alone helps to fight the mistrust towards them.

And if they had an elf or mage as Queen or at least Princess Consort they would quickly realize that they´re just people like everyone else.

In fact, bloodbaths and terror are the wrong ways, as they would prove prejudices. It might be necessary to remove a few hardcore asses like Vaughan, but why do you have contacts to the crows?

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

An elf or mage Queen is simply out of the question, as the Landsmeet that has shown itself willing to stand against anyone no matter their accomplishments, will never accept this.

And I can see why Anora wouldn´t accept a political marriage therefore. But at least Alistair should have the guts to stand up to them for his love.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Your second suggestion is a lot more difficult as it encroaches on religious grounds. But you can still request from Alistair or Anora to free the mages from Templar supervision, so I don't see the problem.

Not sure if that one can go anywhere beyond the request though, since Templars are part of Chantry organizational structure and as such pretty much outside of the king's sphere of influence. It's bit like asking the mayor of Rome to have the Swiss Guard in Vatican removed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
You are making the problem bigger than it is... In fact, most people across Ferelden don´t hate elves or mages, they just mistrust them because they don´t know them and are fed lies

Isn't that the source of most hatred? Ignorance? You think that is easy to extinguish?
Europeans thought they had finally enlightened themselves in the Renaissance and they changed their institutions and yet a few centuries later, the anti-Semitism that had always remained exploded and was worse than even the Middle ages.
 
It's not as easy as you put it. You can believe you can change the world this easily and all I can do is "awww how cute". The reality is that you can't. Not this easily at least.

To quote the Joker, "all you need is one bad day and you will go insane". Apply that to any nation and society.

[Sarah1281]

That boy in Lothering who lost his mother is a perfect example: If you help him he asks if you´re really an elf because he was told that elves aren´t nice. He doesn´t hate elves, he just hasn´t learned any better.

Okay, that boy was Oren's age. His father is prejudiced and when he grows up (should he live) he'll be the same way.

And I can see why Anora wouldn´t accept a political marriage therefore. But at least Alistair should have the guts to stand up to them for his love.

Well, he could try that, true. But if he won't rule alone and insists on ruling with you then  you know they'll just pick Anora instead.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Ice cream for everyone!

No plain vanilla?

Of course not. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Your second suggestion is a lot more difficult as it encroaches on religious grounds. But you can still request from Alistair or Anora to free the mages from Templar supervision, so I don't see the problem.

Not sure if that one can go anywhere beyond the request though, since Templars are part of Chantry organizational structure and as such pretty much outside of the king's sphere of influence. It's bit like asking the mayor of Rome to have the Swiss Guard in Vatican removed.

I know the request is a bit dumb and for the Monarch to accept it makes it even more dumb. But the option is there, as dumb as it is. Maybe it's there  to specifically avoid mage players whining that they couldn't do anything.  

[tmp7704]

Tirigon wrote...

You are making the problem bigger than it is... In fact, most people across Ferelden don´t hate elves or mages, they just mistrust them because they don´t know them and are fed lies, but only very few (like Vaughan) really hate them and NOONE has a sick agenda to extinct them.

You will see that, in fact, the only real "racists" are the Dalish, and even they soften up when you help them.

The ending slides make it painfully obvious this is far from truth. This is how things go:

if Shianni is made the Bann: Resistance from humans saw a rise in violence in the city, however, which culminated in Shianni's murder by a human bigot several years later. The resulting riot in the Alienage forced a crack-down from the throne, a clear signal that the tension with the elves had not been resolved.

if Soris is made the Bann: A year later, Soris's marriage to a wealthy human woman caused a scandal in both parts of the city--resulting in a riot within the Alienage that forced a crack-down from the throne. Angered, Soris resigned his title and left Ferelden with his new wife. No new bann was named to replace him.

If player is made the Bann: With <FirstName/> as their new voice, the elves became prosperous in a way they had never known... enough to draw elves from nearby lands, desperate for real hope. The influx built ire among the human population and eventually resulted in a riot in Denerim, showing that as much as things change, they always stay the same.

If someone else is made the Bann: Resistance from humans saw a rise in violence in the city, however, culminating in an angry mob outside the Landsmeet that stoned the new bann to death. The resulting riot in the Alienage forced a crack-down from the throne, a clear signal that tensions with the elves were far from resolved.

notice the common theme? The tensions run far deeper than just "mistrust". And these tensions are between the populations at large not "only very few". People do look down on the elves and the elves reciprocate. That's all it takes and it's been going for generations. Zathrian's story dates back hundreds of years, after all.

[Lady Jess]

Awwww such a lovely couple. Won't she make a wonderful chancellor? She can be the general of his armies with her awesome arcane warrior skills, she can be the court healer with her lovely spirit healer abilities...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

I think you only get those slides as a city elf

[Sandtigress]

tmp7704 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

You are making the problem bigger than it is... In fact, most people across Ferelden don´t hate elves or mages, they just mistrust them because they don´t know them and are fed lies, but only very few (like Vaughan) really hate them and NOONE has a sick agenda to extinct them.

You will see that, in fact, the only real "racists" are the Dalish, and even they soften up when you help them.

The ending slides make it painfully obvious this is far from truth. This is how things go:

if Shianni is made the Bann: Resistance from humans saw a rise in violence in the city, however, which culminated in Shianni's murder by a human bigot several years later. The resulting riot in the Alienage forced a crack-down from the throne, a clear signal that the tension with the elves had not been resolved.

if Soris is made the Bann: A year later, Soris's marriage to a wealthy human woman caused a scandal in both parts of the city--resulting in a riot within the Alienage that forced a crack-down from the throne. Angered, Soris resigned his title and left Ferelden with his new wife. No new bann was named to replace him.

If player is made the Bann: With as their new voice, the elves became prosperous in a way they had never known... enough to draw elves from nearby lands, desperate for real hope. The influx built ire among the human population and eventually resulted in a riot in Denerim, showing that as much as things change, they always stay the same.

If someone else is made the Bann: Resistance from humans saw a rise in violence in the city, however, culminating in an angry mob outside the Landsmeet that stoned the new bann to death. The resulting riot in the Alienage forced a crack-down from the throne, a clear signal that tensions with the elves were far from resolved.

notice the common theme? The tensions run far deeper than just "mistrust". And these tensions are between the populations at large not "only very few". People do look down on the elves and the elves reciprocate. That's all it takes and it's been going for generations. Zathrian's story dates back hundreds of years, after all.

Are these only with a CE PC, tmp?  I've only had one CEF, I think I made her father Bann, but I don't remember ending slides like that...

[mellifera]

As much of an idealist as I consider myself, there is a line to be drawn. You're not going to eliminate such deep seated prejudices so quickly. It's like saying that freeing the slaves in the United States got rid of racism or something. It's not going to go away overnight, especially if the oppressors feel their status being threatened.

[Sarah1281]

Huh? I never got that death-to-Shianni epilogue. And I never get the option to make Soris a bann, either...

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

I think these trigger only if the player is city elf (as that's the only situation when an elf gets to be a Bann) *and* if someone is actually named to be the Bann, but i don't know if they trigger with Alistair as king. In theory they should, but in my playthrough i went with Anora

(my Toolset loads the post-coronation conversation blank for some reason so i can't check how the choices there affect the plot flags

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 juin 2010 - 02:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

yukidama wrote...

As much of an idealist as I consider myself, there is a line to be drawn. You're not going to eliminate such deep seated prejudices so quickly. It's like saying that freeing the slaves in the United States got rid of racism or something. It's not going to go away overnight, especially if the oppressors feel their status being threatened.

Might as well accept that it will never go away.
Unless we discover aliens and start hating on them that is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

I think you only get those slides as a city elf

If Alistair is willing to crush a revolt, then it doesn't really matter. The point is he has shown himself capable and willing to do such a thing, which is no logner a strong argument against Anora's rule.

Then again, Alsitair is willing to exterminate a Dalish clan, so no surprise there.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2010 - 02:08 .

[mellifera]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

yukidama wrote...

As much of an idealist as I consider myself, there is a line to be drawn. You're not going to eliminate such deep seated prejudices so quickly. It's like saying that freeing the slaves in the United States got rid of racism or something. It's not going to go away overnight, especially if the oppressors feel their status being threatened.

Might as well accept that it will never go away.
Unless we discover aliens and start hating on them that is.

Yep, it reminds me of the whole "post-racial America" idiocy after Obama was elected. No single event is going to eliminate prejudice.

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

I think these trigger only if the player is city elf (as that's the only situation when an elf gets to be a Bann) *and* if someone is actually named to be the Bann, but i don't know if they trigger with Alistair as king. In theory they should, but in my playthrough i went with Anora

(my Toolset loads the post-coronation conversation blank for some reason so i can't check how the choices there affect the plot flags

Maybe they only trigger for Anora-solo queen because she doesn't improve the situation for them and Alistair does.

Edit: I know if I got an epilogue slide that said that Alistair appointing an elf to his council helped make life better for them and things were going well and then another saying Bann Shianni was brutally murdered because things weren't better for them it wouldn't make much sense but that ending is in keepin with riots in the Alienage that solo-Anora needs to crush.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 01 juin 2010 - 02:21 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

The biggest criticism is that she's a grasping, power-hungry b*tch who nearly ruined the country and hence doesn't deserve to sit the throne.  At least from my perspective. 

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

I think these trigger only if the player is city elf (as that's the only situation when an elf gets to be a Bann) *and* if someone is actually named to be the Bann, but i don't know if they trigger with Alistair as king. In theory they should, but in my playthrough i went with Anora

(my Toolset loads the post-coronation conversation blank for some reason so i can't check how the choices there affect the plot flags

In my CE runs, I made Shianni bann and I don't recall any such slides.  Only that her big mouth caused problems etc. but nothing about a riot.  I'm sure I'd remember something like that.

[LadyDamodred]

City elves fair better if you do not name a bann. And they fair better under Alistair than Anora.

Edit:  It could be the slides about the bann are not triggering correctly, but I have no way to check that.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 01 juin 2010 - 02:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hey hey! So Alistiar's reform is going to lead to a crackdown anyways? lol And I thought that was the biggest criticism against Anora, that she brought down an uprising. Seems like Alistair does that as well.

The biggest criticism is that she's a grasping, power-hungry b*tch who nearly ruined the country and hence doesn't deserve to sit the throne.  At least from my perspective. 

I meant the criticism that deals with the epilogues after analysing them.
And yes, I think I get your perspective

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe they only trigger for Anora-solo queen because she doesn't improve the situation for them and Alistair does.

Well, the conditions on the slides don't imply that -- these are shown if condition is met that "there is bann of alienage" which i'm presuming is set when you name a person to be the Bann in post-coronation sequence. There's no condition "Anora is the queen" for them. Afterwards, the second series of slides splits depending on whether the slavers were dealt with and then depending on who got to rule. But that's separate.

One situation where these slides won't show is if the player dies killing the Archdemon -- then the player's father is named to be the Bann but the flag doesn't get set to signify it so slides get skipped. This is probably for the better, as the alternative of learning that player's fatther gets stoned to death some time later for being named the Bann in recognition of what his daughter did... well, that's bit too cruel. If pretty realistic twist of knife in the gut.

edit: top of the page, Alistair doing his part to improve general opinion about the elves

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 juin 2010 - 02:28 .