60083 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Well now I wish those game mechanics were the same when Alistair's execution is ordered.

Actually no, Arcturus' sword cutting off his head would be too good for him.

The problem I have with this is that Alistair has committed no crimes besides being born (it doesn't seem that the Wardens have any real policy against desertion). Loghain has been found guilty and is being punished, either by execution or recruitment into the Wardens. Alistair will swear fealty and can still be executed.

Alistair's crime is desertion of the army Arcturus and not him built and is leading. Anora's reasons are irrelevent, it's my PC who validated the execution. If Alistair was man enough to not abandon the fight, he would have never called for his execution. Because he doesn't betray his friends like that that's first. Second because Alsitair is too insignificant to be any threat to his power.

You can look at it like that, but that is not why Alistair is being executed.  He is being executed by anora as a possible threat to her rule.  Your character either allows it to happen, or asks to spare his life.

I still don't get why you don't spare his life.  He still stood by you for the whole thing.  Does that count for nothing? 

[cmessaz]

Addai67 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
They ask you what you want for helping and you say aid against the blight. It makes sense, Zatriene cursed how many generations of humans because of his hatred. I again am not saying this is right or wrong, but I can RP it either way. I don't enjoy playing through the game a thousand times the same way each time.

I could maybe understand it if it was just killing Zathrian, though that would not end the curse so the humans would be stuck in their suffering anyway.  But killing his whole clan for what he did?  And it's not even a case where things just get out of control.  You have to propose such a thing first, and the werewolves look at you like you're crazy at first.  Even they were only infecting Zathrian's people in order to force his hand.  "Hey let's just kill them all"...  that's not just ruthless, it's mindlessly ruthless.

I do understand about wanting variety, but certain things won't ever make sense to me unless I decide to RP a sociopath.

Well my mage was definately not a sociopath. Maybe not normal, but Zathrien lies to you, and refuses to lift the curse in front of his clan. I don't see how how it is midnlessly ruthless. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't actually done it before.

edit: excuse typos.

Modifié par cmessaz, 01 juin 2010 - 06:32 .

[LadyDamodred]

sylvanaerie wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
I DO enjoy killing him, I just wish there were an option to take her from the room before you do it.  Its brutal in front of her and having daddy's blood splash all over her.

Yes well, apparently the "rightful" king of Ferelden doesn't give a **** about her feelings. Or anyone's really.  

And vice-versa.  *shrugs*  I can accept the limitation of the game in this manner.  If people really don't like, just rp that Loghain is taken away and gets all executey right after the landsmeet.

Problem solved!

YEA I like that!

Just switch things around a little bit if it makes more sense to you.  Errant and I were discussing that yesterday about meeting Loghain in Ostagar.  It makes no sense for your PC to interrupt him, so you have to switch things around rp-wise if you want your PC to talk to him.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And no one's chaining Anora in the room.

"Oh you want to kill my father? Ok sure, but can you please wait till I go outside? Because you know, I would rather not watch this".

Yes, this is as stupid as it sounds.

What's stupid about that?  People are always complaining about making Anora watch, but it's her choice to do so.  She can turn away, for one thing.

I've run the scenario through my mind of what it would be like if Loghain got his way.  Whichever of the two of you who was executed first, it would be terrible to watch but at least you would know that it was over and gladly lay your head on the block afterwards.  I wonder if he would execute Riordan, too.  Probably so, since he was tortured at Howe's- an Orlesian spy etc. etc.

[cmessaz]

Tirigon wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Spell shaping

Thanks a lot! would you by any chance know whether this is compatible with Combat Tweaks? Unfortunately the description says nothing about that.

Idon't know, sorry! I could take a look if you want me to. I don't use combat tweaks because it messed up some of my other mods.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
You can look at it like that, but that is not why Alistair is being executed.  He is being executed by anora as a possible threat to her rule.  Your character either allows it to happen, or asks to spare his life.

You are talking about legality.
In my Pc's mind, he allowed the execution on the charge of desertion.

LadyDamodred wrote...
I still don't get why you don't spare his life.  He still stood by you for the whole thing.  Does that count for nothing? 

When he abandons me and his people when they need him most? No, it counts for nothing.  
And he didn't have a choice when standing by me. He knew who was leader and that was good of him, until he forgot that fact at the end.

Stupid, stupid thing to do. If only Alistair said that he was going to fight the blight in his own way and not follow my command anymore. I would have respected him more and not have allowed the execution.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Alistair's crime is desertion of the army Arcturus and not him built and is leading. Anora's reasons are irrelevent, it's my PC who validated the execution. If Alistair was man enough to not abandon the fight, he would have never called for his execution. Because he doesn't betray his friends like that that's first. Second because Alsitair is too insignificant to be any threat to his power.

Who exactly is Arcturus?

[Addai]

cmessaz wrote...
Well my mage was definately not a sociopath. Maybe not normal, but Zathrien lies to you, and refuses to life the curse in front of his clan. I don't see how how it is midnlessly ruthless. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't actually done it before.

I just don't see why a PC would not at least do what the Lady is suggesting and talk to Zathrian first, rather than skip right to "hey let's slaughter them all".  Especially when you have been in their camp and know that there are a lot of innocent, clueless people, including children, who have nothing to do with Zathrian's curse.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Well now I wish those game mechanics were the same when Alistair's execution is ordered.

Actually no, Arcturus' sword cutting off his head would be too good for him.

The problem I have with this is that Alistair has committed no crimes besides being born (it doesn't seem that the Wardens have any real policy against desertion). Loghain has been found guilty and is being punished, either by execution or recruitment into the Wardens. Alistair will swear fealty and can still be executed.

Alistair's crime is desertion of the army Arcturus and not him built and is leading. Anora's reasons are irrelevent, it's my PC who validated the execution. If Alistair was man enough to not abandon the fight, he would have never called for his execution. Because he doesn't betray his friends like that that's first. Second because Alsitair is too insignificant to be any threat to his power.

AKA, we should be nice to Anora and feel bad because she got a little blood on her face, but Alistair offended my PC, so behead him?

It would be dumb for the future King-Consort of Ferelden or the Queen of Ferelden for that matter, to call for the execution of Maric the Savior's son. What I way to build loyalty.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
What's stupid about that?  People are always complaining about making Anora watch, but it's her choice to do so.  She can turn away, for one thing.

Yes, turn away and let her father be murdered, while kindly asking the permission to leave. Sure.
 
I don't think you realise the gravity of a daughter knowing that her father is going to die.

[Tirigon]

cmessaz wrote...

Idon't know, sorry! I could take a look if you want me to. I don't use combat tweaks because it messed up some of my other mods.

Thanks, but no need to go through so much troubles if it doesn´t affect you anyways. i´ll try it myself.

[sylvanaerie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
I DO enjoy killing him, I just wish there were an option to take her from the room before you do it.  Its brutal in front of her and having daddy's blood splash all over her.

Yes well, apparently the "rightful" king of Ferelden doesn't give a **** about her feelings. Or anyone's really.  

And vice-versa.  *shrugs*  I can accept the limitation of the game in this manner.  If people really don't like, just rp that Loghain is taken away and gets all executey right after the landsmeet.

Problem solved!

YEA I like that!

Just switch things around a little bit if it makes more sense to you.  Errant and I were discussing that yesterday about meeting Loghain in Ostagar.  It makes no sense for your PC to interrupt him, so you have to switch things around rp-wise if you want your PC to talk to him.

I only do it now on my HN, the RP reason being "Well Cailan is freaking useless, maybe the Hero of RiverDane will assist my vengeance."  Guess the joke's on me... He not only could care less but he rewards the bastard who did it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
AKA, we should be nice to Anora and feel bad because she got a little blood on her face, but Alistair offended my PC, so behead him?

It would be dumb for the future King-Consort of Ferelden or the Queen of Ferelden for that matter, to call for the execution of Maric the Savior's son. What I way to build loyalty.

Not offended, betrayed and deserted.
And not a "little blood", but her father's blood.

Bhelen executed Harrowmont and it worked well for him. 
The man who was executed was a traitor to his country, not a savior.  
And yes, that is one of many ways to build up loyalty.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In my Pc's mind, he allowed the execution on the charge of desertion.

 

Hey this works equally well for Loghain.    Not counting the whole poisoning, slave selling, and illegal regency goodness.

[Lady Jess]

Last night, I was saying how Caislyn, my AW/spirit healer good girl mage needs toughened up. Right now she has no solid reason to tell Alistair about people being out for themselves, because little miss sunshine and rainbows doesn't see it. I decided that catalyst would have to be the reunion with Jowan. She still has alot of guilt for setting him up, though she did it with good intentions, and will likely set him free again out of that guilt. So I figure Wynne will grab her by the ear and pull her aside and give her a lecture about learning to "toughen up" and not let people use her good heart against her. And then later, someone will have to convince her it's ok to make a grab for what you want, I'm thinking Morrigan in combination with Wynne's apology about her and Alistair?

[cmessaz]

Addai67 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
Well my mage was definately not a sociopath. Maybe not normal, but Zathrien lies to you, and refuses to life the curse in front of his clan. I don't see how how it is midnlessly ruthless. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't actually done it before.

I just don't see why a PC would not at least do what the Lady is suggesting and talk to Zathrian first, rather than skip right to "hey let's slaughter them all".  Especially when you have been in their camp and know that there are a lot of innocent, clueless people, including children, who have nothing to do with Zathrian's curse.

I think this is an argument we need to get out of. My point is I have played through each way, I have exterminated the Dalish, wiped out the werewolves and made them agree to break the curse together. I do it differently each time and can RP it any of the 3 ways. That is all I am saying. I offer a truce!

[Tirigon]

cmessaz wrote...

Well my mage was definately not a sociopath. Maybe not normal, but Zathrien lies to you, and refuses to lift the curse in front of his clan. I don't see how how it is midnlessly ruthless. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't actually done it before.

edit: excuse typos.

I only killed the Dalish once - on my Human noble playthrough - and I found it rather easy to justify. After all, my Warden was a devout follower of the chantry, so that makes the Dalish heretics in her eyes.
Add to that that werewolfes are better killers than Dalish, that means more useful against the Darkspawn, and the fact that the Dalish act like asses to your PC, and their death sentence was signed.

Also, DC-Alistair approves:police:

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
What's stupid about that?  People are always complaining about making Anora watch, but it's her choice to do so.  She can turn away, for one thing.

Yes, turn away and let her father be murdered, while kindly asking the permission to leave. Sure.
 
I don't think you realise the gravity of a daughter knowing that her father is going to die.

Murdered, LOL.

I'm confused about what your point is, however.  How do you think the execution should be carried out?

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
AKA, we should be nice to Anora and feel bad because she got a little blood on her face, but Alistair offended my PC, so behead him?

It would be dumb for the future King-Consort of Ferelden or the Queen of Ferelden for that matter, to call for the execution of Maric the Savior's son. What I way to build loyalty.

Not offended, betrayed and deserted.
And not a "little blood", but her father's blood.

Bhelen executed Harrowmont and it worked well for him. 
The man who was executed was a traitor to his country, not a savior.  
And yes, that is one of many ways to build up loyalty.

So what you are saying is that Arcturus is no different than Alistair? Alistair was betrayed by Loghain (as was every other soldier he deserted), Loghain commited treason, and he is offensive by daring to call the PC a hand of the Orlesian Empire.

The thing about Harrowmont is that he is not the son of a hero who liberated a nation, he is not the last of his legendary line. Alistair is. Anora should want to keep him alive just for that reason alone. Or at least kill him quietly. Calling for the execution of a man who offended her and defending her father who commited treason is hypocritical.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In my Pc's mind, he allowed the execution on the charge of desertion.

 

Hey this works equally well for Loghain.    Not counting the whole poisoning, slave selling, and illegal regency goodness.

Except Loghain did not abandon his nation, while Alistair did.
 
But of course, I have never denied the fact that you can execute Loghain for desertion, it's a valid way to look at it. I personally do not think Loghain deserted his nation, only his idiotic king, thus does not deserve to be executed, but does deserve to be punished hence why he is stripped away of all titles

[LadyDamodred]

Oh, what have we done?!



*weeps*



*gets off this train now*

[cmessaz]

Ok I told myself I wasn't getting into this particular argument, but do you honestly think Loghain did nothing wrong KoP?

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Well my mage was definately not a sociopath. Maybe not normal, but Zathrien lies to you, and refuses to lift the curse in front of his clan. I don't see how how it is midnlessly ruthless. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I hadn't actually done it before.

edit: excuse typos.

I only killed the Dalish once - on my Human noble playthrough - and I found it rather easy to justify. After all, my Warden was a devout follower of the chantry, so that makes the Dalish heretics in her eyes.
Add to that that werewolfes are better killers than Dalish, that means more useful against the Darkspawn, and the fact that the Dalish act like asses to your PC, and their death sentence was signed.

So your "devout Chantry follower" decides to side with cursed abominations because the Dalish are heretics?  And murders people for being rude? 

Also, DC-Alistair approves:police:

Anything cited from that idiot DLC is an argument for why it doesn't make sense, not for why it does. 

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In my Pc's mind, he allowed the execution on the charge of desertion.

 

Hey this works equally well for Loghain.    Not counting the whole poisoning, slave selling, and illegal regency goodness.

Except Loghain did not abandon his nation, while Alistair did.
 
But of course, I have never denied the fact that you can execute Loghain for desertion, it's a valid way to look at it. I personally do not think Loghain deserted his nation, only his idiotic king, thus does not deserve to be executed, but does deserve to be punished hence why he is stripped away of all titles

Alistair didn't abandon his nation, he's a Grey Warden, his allegiance goes to no one. So desertion doesn't hold up in any fair judgement.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
So what you are saying is that Arcturus is no different than Alistair? Alistair was betrayed by Loghain (as was every other soldier he deserted), Loghain commited treason, and he is offensive by daring to call the PC a hand of the Orlesian Empire.

Alsitair was not commanding the army at Ostagar. Loghain did not desert him, he deserted the king. And soldiers get left behind all the time in strategic retreats. I do not view Loghain's act as a desertion. But as a strategic and calculated military action. Alistair's desertion is just that. Desertion.
 
And Loghain gets punished for his seeming treason by getting stripped from his tiutles and forced to join his former enemies. Sadly Alsitair can't be conscripted to be saved from his crime.

Kryyptehk wrote...
The thing about Harrowmont is that he is not the son of a hero who liberated a nation, he is not the last of his legendary line. Alistair is. Anora should want to keep him alive just for that reason alone. Or at least kill him quietly. Calling for the execution of a man who offended her and defending her father who commited treason is hypocritical.

Why should the fact that Alsitair being the son of Maric, who didn't even recognise him, matter when he is  deserting the nation his father saved?

Whatever symbol the Thereins have is lost when one of them is abandoning his nation.