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[Axekix]

[Gilsa]

LOL, I love that you quoted it and it's the TOP PICTURE OF THE PAGE. HAHAHAHAAAA!!

[Addai]

Gilsa wrote...

There's like five regular posters and we all like to hear ourselves talk. That's the only reason why it's still active. =p

So true.  But if it weren't for you freaks, I'd have myself committed. 

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, I know GWs can't have children together but if fertility were not affected then would the DE/Alisair pairing still be so attractive as she'd be sacrificing her heritage to pop out human babies or would that make her think twice?

For mine, I don't think it would matter. She's already sacrificed that, by joining the wardens. That's her clan now, and Alistair her...what do Dalish call them? I'll use life mate, for now.

But why is it sacrificed? She's called upon to defeat a Blight so that makes her no longer Dalish? 

Duncan tells you when he recruits you that your life as  a Dalish is over, you will never see your clan again. You sacrifice ALL ties. Whether it was her choice or not, it is what it is and she accepts it eventually.  Her lineage is dalish, but her loyalties are not.  Wardens don't just punch a time clock when the blight ends, and go home. The Wardens are their home. And yes, once you spend enough time with the humans, you are considered not a Dalish anymore. That's the explanation they give for city elves.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, I know GWs can't have children together but if fertility were not affected then would the DE/Alisair pairing still be so attractive as she'd be sacrificing her heritage to pop out human babies or would that make her think twice?

For mine, I don't think it would matter. She's already sacrificed that, by joining the wardens. That's her clan now, and Alistair her...what do Dalish call them? I'll use life mate, for now.

But why is it sacrificed? She's called upon to defeat a Blight so that makes her no longer Dalish? 

It's hard to epxlain and I'm supposed to be sleeping, but in such a tight-knit group, to be "marked" as she is, is to be separated from the group entirely.  And I think it would be very difficult to go back to that life after having seen the broader world.  My Dalish Wardens are also more keen than others to kick darkspawn ass.  They make the best Wardens of all my characters.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, I know GWs can't have children together but if fertility were not affected then would the DE/Alisair pairing still be so attractive as she'd be sacrificing her heritage to pop out human babies or would that make her think twice?

For mine, I don't think it would matter. She's already sacrificed that, by joining the wardens. That's her clan now, and Alistair her...what do Dalish call them? I'll use life mate, for now.

But why is it sacrificed? She's called upon to defeat a Blight so that makes her no longer Dalish? 

Duncan tells you when he recruits you that your life as  a Dalish is over, you will never see your clan again. You sacrifice ALL ties. Whether it was her choice or not, it is what it is and she accepts it eventually.  Her lineage is dalish, but her loyalties are not.  Wardens don't just punch a time clock when the blight ends, and go home. The Wardens are their home. And yes, once you spend enough time with the humans, you are considered not a Dalish anymore. That's the explanation they give for city elves.

 And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

[mellifera]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, I know GWs can't have children together but if fertility were not affected then would the DE/Alisair pairing still be so attractive as she'd be sacrificing her heritage to pop out human babies or would that make her think twice?

As I see it, she more than others is aware that in a sense her life ended on the day she was corrupted by the mirror.  The taint sickness was in her from that point and she is on borrowed time.  The funeral the clan had for Tamlen was her own funeral, too.  She is not really Dalish anymore.  If you read my story (not a plug, srsly), you'll see that she is coming around to the idea that the Grey Wardens are now her clan.  From there, seeing Alistair as her clanmate is no leap at all.  In fact, in my story, it's staring her straight in the face and she still doesn't see it.  At this point in my game, her eyes are starting to open.  And yes, it is almost the unthinkable, but that's part of what makes it so .  I've always said there's a bit of Romeo and Juliet to it.

Yeah, I kind of played it that way too. When she left she felt as if it was a goodbye for good. She never intended to go back even though at one point she was feeling vulnerable and told the messenger that she wanted to go back. But by the time the end of the game arrived she had made her peace and let go.

I can't really figure out why she told Ashalle she'd return briefly at the end considering how I RPed her departure and coming to terms with leaving, but apparently she did. Though my character did make an emphasis that she's a Warden now...

[Costin_Razvan]

Gilsa...you are a sneaky woman....putting Tim's head instead of Loghain's?!



Duran approves +100

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

For me anyway, it's not something someone enforces at all.  She feels marked.  Really there was always a sense that she was not like the others.  In her discussion with Lanaya tonight, Idun said she had no choice to become a Grey Warden, but sees it now as her destiny and she would not avert it.  Anyway it is not realistic to keep up ties with your clan as a Warden- they are constantly moving from place to place.  You might see them on the rare occasion, but with no regularity.

I think having seen the evil of the darkspawn up close makes for a very motivated Grey Warden.  The Dalish Warden, alone of all the origins, glimpses the Black City.  You see how the Blight defiles even the very land (the forest changes in between the time you first find the mirror and go back).  Having Tamlen taken by darkspawn makes it very personal, at least for my PC- not so much for yukidama, I understand, or was that cmessaz?

Modifié par Addai67, 02 juin 2010 - 06:45 .

[sabreene]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, I know GWs can't have children together but if fertility were not affected then would the DE/Alisair pairing still be so attractive as she'd be sacrificing her heritage to pop out human babies or would that make her think twice?

For mine, I don't think it would matter. She's already sacrificed that, by joining the wardens. That's her clan now, and Alistair her...what do Dalish call them? I'll use life mate, for now.

But why is it sacrificed? She's called upon to defeat a Blight so that makes her no longer Dalish? 

Duncan tells you when he recruits you that your life as  a Dalish is over, you will never see your clan again. You sacrifice ALL ties. Whether it was her choice or not, it is what it is and she accepts it eventually.  Her lineage is dalish, but her loyalties are not.  Wardens don't just punch a time clock when the blight ends, and go home. The Wardens are their home. And yes, once you spend enough time with the humans, you are considered not a Dalish anymore. That's the explanation they give for city elves.

 And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

Usually, for my wardens, what they've gone through has irrevocably changed them. Even if they might have wanted to go back at the beginning, by the end they are no longer the person they once were. They have to move forward and make a new place in life, and they usually can't go back into what their old life once was. I haven't  finished a DN, so that might be the one ending where they do go back to Orzammar.

[mellifera]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

For me anyway, it's not something someone enforces at all.  She feels marked.  Really there was always a sense that she was not like the others.  In her discussion with Lanaya tonight, Idun said she had no choice to become a Grey Warden, but sees it now as her destiny and she would not avert it.  Anyway it is not realistic to keep up ties with your clan as a Warden- they are constantly moving from place to place.  You might see them on the rare occasion, but with no regularity.

I think having seen the evil of the darkspawn up close makes for a very motivated Grey Warden.  The Dalish Warden, alone of all the origins, glimpses the Black City.  You see how the Blight defiles even the very land (the forest changes in between the time you first find the mirror and go back).  Having Tamlen taken by darkspawn makes it very personal, at least for my PC- not so much for yukidama, I understand, or was that cmessaz?

That was me. It makes it personal for my character, just not for me. Even if I hate him I don't really go against them being friends since they were young. She does show concern and is eager to go searching for him in the ruins. She may have been reluctant to go in and annoyed that he wouldn't listen to her but she's not exactly the type to be all "I don't care, let him rot." She didn't want to be a Warden but once she starts killing darkspawn and sees the world outside of being Dalish she comes to see it as a position she rather enjoys. Then again, while she loved her clan I played her as having been a bit of an odd duck, considering her parentage. Like, she'd be the type to be off by her own exploring (cautiously, not too far away from everyone like going into strange ruins ) or reading and studying anything she could get her hands on. Tamlen was her friend but I didn't think of them as attached at the hip all the time. She still helped out as much as she could (learning how to use weapons to go on hunts even as a mage and such things) because she was Dalish, they were her family and had a responsibility to them.

Modifié par yukidama, 02 juin 2010 - 06:58 .

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

It's not about what they expect from her. It's what she expects from herself. She ends the blight and returns to the wardens.

[sabreene]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

It's really all up to the way you RP it. No matter if Duncan or anyone else expects it of you, if you RP that you expect it of yourself then you're going to do it. If you RP that you never wanted it, and now that the blight is ended you're free to do what you want, then you're free to go back to whatever it is you wish.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

It's not about what they expect from her. It's what she expects from herself. She ends the blight and returns to the wardens.

But that's because of a choice she makes about what she wants to do with her life not because drinking some tainted blood cuts all your ties to your former life.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

It's not about what they expect from her. It's what she expects from herself. She ends the blight and returns to the wardens.

But that's because of a choice she makes about what she wants to do with her life not because drinking some tainted blood cuts all your ties to your former life.

Well you're welcome to play yours however you like. but you asked about ours. That's how I play mine.

[sabreene]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

It's not about what they expect from her. It's what she expects from herself. She ends the blight and returns to the wardens.

But that's because of a choice she makes about what she wants to do with her life not because drinking some tainted blood cuts all your ties to your former life.

It does if you RP it does. You could RP that by drinking the blood you areirrevocably changed. Or you could RP that as you can hear the call of the Archdemon you can also feel a bond with your fellow wardens. It would stand to reason there was some bond keeping all the Wardens together. But again, it's all in the way you RP it. It's open for interpetation. You could also RP it means nothing, and breaks no ties from your past.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

It's not about what they expect from her. It's what she expects from herself. She ends the blight and returns to the wardens.

But that's because of a choice she makes about what she wants to do with her life not because drinking some tainted blood cuts all your ties to your former life.

Well you're welcome to play yours however you like. but you asked about ours. That's how I play mine.

I think it might be the terminology I'm having problems with. "She can't ever go back" implies that something is stopping her from doing so not that she chooses not to go back and willingly makes the Wardens her new clan instead of kind of being forced to. I can't stand a lack of choice in these matters.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 juin 2010 - 07:13 .

[mellifera]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Duncan dies within a month or so and thus he can't really enforce that. There are no other Wardens and once the Blight is over with who's really going to keep you there? And if the city elves can eventually prove themselves then why can't Dalish who become Wardens reprove themselves?

The 'you aren't a noble/mage/casteless/Dalish/city elf anymore is the one completely BS part of the Wardes I can't accept. They may never have children, they may have horrible nightmares and attract darkspawn for the rest of their lives, and they may only have thirty years to live, but cutting all ties and no longer being a person but a Warden? No, that's going to happen, especially not after you become the fifth person ever to end a Blight. Then again, I can't seem to RP an eager Warden. Yeah, it might be better than what would have happened without Joining but the rest of your life? I'd rather just suck it up and US, honestly.

But Duncan is also the only reason she has 30 years to live instead of being dead right now, or WORSE considering what became of Tamlen. His being dead doesn't change the fact that the Gray Wardens are the only reason she is alive.

And thus you end their Blight. Since you're supposed to be dead after doing so, it's not like he or the other Wardens really expected you to keep being a Warden post-Blight.

It's not about what they expect from her. It's what she expects from herself. She ends the blight and returns to the wardens.

But that's because of a choice she makes about what she wants to do with her life not because drinking some tainted blood cuts all your ties to your former life.

My Dalish character stays with the Wardens because she wants to. Alternatively, my noble liked being a Warden but didn't see it as a long term thing, which is why she becomes queen. She only goes back to the Wardens for the good of her country because she is best equipped to help protect it against the darkspawn.

Basically, you can do what you want however you RP it.

Modifié par yukidama, 02 juin 2010 - 07:20 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Lmao this thread was very busy for a while

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 02 juin 2010 - 07:20 .

[mellifera]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Lmao this thread was very busy for a while

We've been having more discussions (and arguments) today!

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it might be the terminology I'm having problems with. "She can't ever go back" implies that something is stopping her from doing so not that she chooses not to go back and willingly makes the Wardens her new clan instead of kind of being forced to. I can't stand a lack of choice in these matters.

It really is just as simple as Duncan and the Keeper telling her, her eventually accepting it, and moving on.

[sabreene]

We have! I guess people are cranky coming back from a holiday. You'd think it'd be the opposite. Short week, and all!

edit, for more Alistair:

Modifié par sabreene, 02 juin 2010 - 07:28 .

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it might be the terminology I'm having problems with. "She can't ever go back" implies that something is stopping her from doing so not that she chooses not to go back and willingly makes the Wardens her new clan instead of kind of being forced to. I can't stand a lack of choice in these matters.

It really is just as simple as Duncan and the Keeper telling her, her eventually accepting it, and moving on.

Deciding that they're right and she's happy being a Warden or letting them take away her choice and accept the path they're forcing her to take?