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[Addai]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Because he's scared?  People make mistakes, and not telling someone something out of fear is fairly common.  He's finally found what seems like the one person who doesn't care and just likes him for him and he's afraid he's going to lose it.  Is it the smartest thing to do?  Probably not, but it is understandable.

His response to "I did like you but now I don't even know you" is very, very .

The scenario that Sarah describes was true for my blood mage, Sula, and she did feel betrayed.  But I more or less manipulated that because I intended her for Zevran and didn't want Alistair to be sent off to Morri for his first.  So I left Alistair out of the party going to Redcliffe.  It's all in how you roleplay it.  In my DEF games, Alistair is the one who's in deep before DEF realizes what's going on, and he told both of them fairly early on the way to Redcliffe.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juin 2010 - 09:50 .

[Xandurpein]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Because he's scared?  People make mistakes, and not telling someone something out of fear is fairly common.  He's finally found what seems like the one person who doesn't care and just likes him for him and he's afraid he's going to lose it.  Is it the smartest thing to do?  Probably not, but it is understandable.

Do you have to like it because it is understandable?

I would guess that it's more of a "Do you think this makes him a bad person, or just someone who makes a forgivable mistake."

[LadyDamodred]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Because he's scared?  People make mistakes, and not telling someone something out of fear is fairly common.  He's finally found what seems like the one person who doesn't care and just likes him for him and he's afraid he's going to lose it.  Is it the smartest thing to do?  Probably not, but it is understandable.

Do you have to like it because it is understandable?

No, and I'm not saying anyone should.  I took exception to the stance that Alistair somehow has control over the PC's feelings and can dictate what they feel.  if you're falling for him, you're falling for him.  Why should who his father was really matter if you love him?  *shrugs*  Does it change who he is?  No.  It might have been nice to know sooner, but he explicitly tells you why he avoids it because all it does it change how people see them and drive them away.  Why would he want to do that with the woman he loves?

Yes, he should have told the PC sooner (if you wait to go to redcliffe), but it's not like he could have forseen everything that was going to happen.  And once it did happen...well, it's not like he has a whole lot of experience in dealing with things like this.

[Xandurpein]

Sandtigress wrote...

Brust's style is very Mark Twainish to me, so if you like Twain, I think you'll really like this series.

He has also written a companion series happening in the same universe, but several hundred years earlier in a Alexander Dumas inspired style.

[Addai]

Snuggle for Sandi's top of page!

[Sarah1281]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Because he's scared?  People make mistakes, and not telling someone something out of fear is fairly common.  He's finally found what seems like the one person who doesn't care and just likes him for him and he's afraid he's going to lose it.  Is it the smartest thing to do?  Probably not, but it is understandable.

Do you have to like it because it is understandable?

No, and I'm not saying anyone should.  I took exception to the stance that Alistair somehow has control over the PC's feelings and can dictate what they feel.  if you're falling for him, you're falling for him.  Why should who his father was really matter if you love him?  *shrugs*  Does it change who he is?  No.  It might have been nice to know sooner, but he explicitly tells you why he avoids it because all it does it change how people see them and drive them away.  Why would he want to do that with the woman he loves?

Yes, he should have told the PC sooner (if you wait to go to redcliffe), but it's not like he could have forseen everything that was going to happen.  And once it did happen...well, it's not like he has a whole lot of experience in dealing with things like this.

I never said he had control over her feelings, just that he allowed her to fall for him without knowing. Or, to rephrase it, he was dating her and watching as it became more serious and knowing full well there was a good chance that they had no future together because Eamon mihgt make him heir.

There is a difference between loving someone, which mighrt happen regardless of whether you knew but if you didn't love him yet and found out you could conceivably put distance between you two and wait until you get over your attraction, and being able to be with someone. If some characters 'couldn't help' but love him they still might choose to never act on it if they knew about him being an heir and thus save themselves a painful breakup later. Or do you feel it's just as painful to never be with someone you have feelings for as it is to have to break up with someone you love and who loves you back because your relationship is no longer feasible for whatever reason? 

[Sandtigress]

Sarah1281 wrote...

There is a difference between loving someone, which mighrt happen regardless of whether you knew but if you didn't love him yet and found out you could conceivably put distance between you two and wait until you get over your attraction, and being able to be with someone. If some characters 'couldn't help' but love him they still might choose to never act on it if they knew about him being an heir and thus save themselves a painful breakup later. Or do you feel it's just as painful to never be with someone you have feelings for as it is to have to break up with someone you love and who loves you back because your relationship is no longer feasible for whatever reason? 

Speaking from experience, they both suck.

I broke up with my ex after three years because I realized that he was never going to be marriable material and that being together was probably hurting his ability to move on with things he needed to move on with.

I fell pretty hard for another guy a few years later only for him to get diagnosed with a brain tumor, after which he distanced himself and rarely speaks to me now.

I can say that between the two, the devastation was different, but probably at about the same level.  In some ways the second is worse because you want to be there for the person but know that you can't in the way that you want to.  At least in the first, I knew that breaking up was the better thing for both of us in the long run, even if it hurt at the moment to do so.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I never said he had control over her feelings, just that he allowed her to fall for him without knowing. Or, to rephrase it, he was dating her and watching as it became more serious and knowing full well there was a good chance that they had no future together because Eamon mihgt make him heir. 

 
Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads:  "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them.  You can still fall for him even after you know.  And yes, he did know there was that chance.  Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

Sarah1281 wrote...
There is a difference between loving someone, which mighrt happen regardless of whether you knew but if you didn't love him yet and found out you could conceivably put distance between you two and wait until you get over your attraction, and being able to be with someone. If some characters 'couldn't help' but love him they still might choose to never act on it if they knew about him being an heir and thus save themselves a painful breakup later. Or do you feel it's just as painful to never be with someone you have feelings for as it is to have to break up with someone you love and who loves you back because your relationship is no longer feasible for whatever reason? 

They are two different kinds of pain, and not really comparable.  You have the phrase 'Tis better to have loved and lost than never loved at all' and the sentiment of 'What could have been'.  How do you equate those?  And what I believe has very little meaning.  The crux of the problem is Alistair and why/when he tells you.  I posit that he has no control over your feelings, and he waits because he is scared, in some cases, justifiably.

[Sarah1281]

Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads: "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them. You can still fall for him even after you know. And yes, he did know there was that chance. Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

If she was going to fall regardless, what Alsitair is allowing is this to happen without her knowing. I don't mean he's in any way controlling her feelings just that he is letting it happen. It's like if, say, Leliana falls for your PC and doesn't know about Alistair and you don't tell her. Are you forcing her to fall in love with you? No but you are allowing her to do it without knowing about something that is extremely relevant.

[Sandtigress]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads: "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them. You can still fall for him even after you know. And yes, he did know there was that chance. Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

If she was going to fall regardless, what Alsitair is allowing is this to happen without her knowing. I don't mean he's in any way controlling her feelings just that he is letting it happen. It's like if, say, Leliana falls for your PC and doesn't know about Alistair and you don't tell her. Are you forcing her to fall in love with you? No but you are allowing her to do it without knowing about something that is extremely relevant.

Is anyone arguing that he should do it?  They're only saying that he has reasons, even if they're illogical and not very well thought out.  He's afraid, so he doesn't tell her.  I'm pretty sure no one's saying that's a good thing, just that it's not out of the blue or out of character for him to do so.

[Sarah1281]

Sandtigress wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads: "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them. You can still fall for him even after you know. And yes, he did know there was that chance. Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

If she was going to fall regardless, what Alsitair is allowing is this to happen without her knowing. I don't mean he's in any way controlling her feelings just that he is letting it happen. It's like if, say, Leliana falls for your PC and doesn't know about Alistair and you don't tell her. Are you forcing her to fall in love with you? No but you are allowing her to do it without knowing about something that is extremely relevant.

Is anyone arguing that he should do it?  They're only saying that he has reasons, even if they're illogical and not very well thought out.  He's afraid, so he doesn't tell her.  I'm pretty sure no one's saying that's a good thing, just that it's not out of the blue or out of character for him to do so.

I don't recall ever saying that it was OOC or out of the blue for him to do so. I believe this started when I said that I had a problem with his actions and everyone started saying how understandable it was.

[Addai]

How often does this really happen in people's games?  I generally go to Redcliffe 1st or 2nd, so I almost never see it as a big betrayal.  The romance is likely not even on at that point.  Not that it doesn't knock my Wardens for a loop, especially the HN ones who know what it means.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

How often does this really happen in people's games?  I generally go to Redcliffe 1st or 2nd, so I almost never see it as a big betrayal.  The romance is likely not even on at that point.  Not that it doesn't knock my Wardens for a loop, especially the HN ones who know what it means.

I hit Redcliffe right before Orzammar which is my last stop before the Landsmeet so...frequently.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads: "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them. You can still fall for him even after you know. And yes, he did know there was that chance. Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

If she was going to fall regardless, what Alsitair is allowing is this to happen without her knowing. I don't mean he's in any way controlling her feelings just that he is letting it happen. It's like if, say, Leliana falls for your PC and doesn't know about Alistair and you don't tell her. Are you forcing her to fall in love with you? No but you are allowing her to do it without knowing about something that is extremely relevant.

This is a poor analogy.  Your actions in cheating/hiding a relationship from someone who cares about you is directly relevant to your personality.  If they knew you were that kind of person, they probably wouldn't fall for you.  Alistair's issue has nothing to do with him, but rather who his father was.  It doesn't change who he is as a person.

Could it change how your PC sees him?  Yes.  This is the point.  It's why he doesn't tell her.  He is afraid it will change how she sees him and he hates it because it has nothing to do with who he is or why you love him or might lvoe him.

[Herr Uhl]

LadyDamodred wrote...

This is a poor analogy.  Your actions in cheating/hiding a relationship from someone who cares about you is directly relevant to your personality.  If they knew you were that kind of person, they probably wouldn't fall for you.  Alistair's issue has nothing to do with him, but rather who his father was.  It doesn't change who he is as a person.

Could it change how your PC sees him?  Yes.  This is the point.  It's why he doesn't tell her.  He is afraid it will change how she sees him and he hates it because it has nothing to do with who he is or why you love him or might lvoe him.

She isn't disagreeing with you. She just doesn't like it.

[Sarah1281]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads: "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them. You can still fall for him even after you know. And yes, he did know there was that chance. Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

If she was going to fall regardless, what Alsitair is allowing is this to happen without her knowing. I don't mean he's in any way controlling her feelings just that he is letting it happen. It's like if, say, Leliana falls for your PC and doesn't know about Alistair and you don't tell her. Are you forcing her to fall in love with you? No but you are allowing her to do it without knowing about something that is extremely relevant.

This is a poor analogy.  Your actions in cheating/hiding a relationship from someone who cares about you is directly relevant to your personality.  If they knew you were that kind of person, they probably wouldn't fall for you.  Alistair's issue has nothing to do with him, but rather who his father was.  It doesn't change who he is as a person.

Could it change how your PC sees him?  Yes.  This is the point.  It's why he doesn't tell her.  He is afraid it will change how she sees him and he hates it because it has nothing to do with who he is or why you love him or might lvoe him.

Clearly Alistair thinks it is important and would change things or he wouldn't hide it. She might love him regardless but her choice on whether to act on those feelings or not or even whether to let her attraction develop into love is compromised by her not having all the facts.

And what analogy would you propose then? 

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

How often does this really happen in people's games?  I generally go to Redcliffe 1st or 2nd, so I almost never see it as a big betrayal.  The romance is likely not even on at that point.  Not that it doesn't knock my Wardens for a loop, especially the HN ones who know what it means.

I hit Redcliffe right before Orzammar which is my last stop before the Landsmeet so...frequently.

Ah, well that makes sense then.  But keep in mind that this is completely dependent on the order you do the quests in, i.e. player choice.  Though Alistair's dialogues here make more sense if you do feel pissed off/ betrayed- he certainly expects that you're going to smack him.

[Sandtigress]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads: "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them. You can still fall for him even after you know. And yes, he did know there was that chance. Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

If she was going to fall regardless, what Alsitair is allowing is this to happen without her knowing. I don't mean he's in any way controlling her feelings just that he is letting it happen. It's like if, say, Leliana falls for your PC and doesn't know about Alistair and you don't tell her. Are you forcing her to fall in love with you? No but you are allowing her to do it without knowing about something that is extremely relevant.

Is anyone arguing that he should do it?  They're only saying that he has reasons, even if they're illogical and not very well thought out.  He's afraid, so he doesn't tell her.  I'm pretty sure no one's saying that's a good thing, just that it's not out of the blue or out of character for him to do so.

I don't recall ever saying that it was OOC or out of the blue for him to do so. I believe this started when I said that I had a problem with his actions and everyone started saying how understandable it was.

Well, it is understandable.  He's afraid the only person who's ever liked him for him is going to do what everyone else does when they find out - treat him differently.  He wants to preserve that as long as possible, especially since he's crazy about her when he never thought that could happen.

But understandable doesn't mean you have to like it, and it especially doesn't mean that your PC isn't allowed to throw a huge fit and break up with him over it.  I understood exactly why my ex did a bunch of the stuff he did, but you better believe I threw a fit and was very angry and upset over the whole matter anyways.  I understand why my friend with the brain tumor pulled away and isolated himself, and it still kills me.

Even if you get it, your PC doesn't have to, because we see game stuff from outside their perspective oftentimes anyways.  How you RP it is up to you, but it's not like Alistair doesn't have reasons to withold the information.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ok, maybe it's just a difference in how we use language, but that is exactly how that reads: "He allowed her" means he somehow has control over her feelings and can allow/deny them. You can still fall for him even after you know. And yes, he did know there was that chance. Hence the fear and not wanting to tell.

If she was going to fall regardless, what Alsitair is allowing is this to happen without her knowing. I don't mean he's in any way controlling her feelings just that he is letting it happen. It's like if, say, Leliana falls for your PC and doesn't know about Alistair and you don't tell her. Are you forcing her to fall in love with you? No but you are allowing her to do it without knowing about something that is extremely relevant.

This is a poor analogy.  Your actions in cheating/hiding a relationship from someone who cares about you is directly relevant to your personality.  If they knew you were that kind of person, they probably wouldn't fall for you.  Alistair's issue has nothing to do with him, but rather who his father was.  It doesn't change who he is as a person.

Could it change how your PC sees him?  Yes.  This is the point.  It's why he doesn't tell her.  He is afraid it will change how she sees him and he hates it because it has nothing to do with who he is or why you love him or might lvoe him.

Clearly Alistair thinks it is important and would change things or he wouldn't hide it. She might love him regardless but her choice on whether to act on those feelings or not or even whether to let her attraction develop into love is compromised by her not having all the facts.

And what analogy would you propose then? 

Yes.  He does think it would affect it because it always has.  That is not what I am disagreeing on.  I was disagreeing on the original statement that he can someone control the PC's feelings.  If we've worked that out, then we don't need to revisit it.

As for an analogy, it would be like learning anything significant about your LI's parent, good or bad.  We don't have very many real world examples that mesh well with Alistair's situation, though.  I can't think of one offhand.  Maybe learning their parent (who they never met) is a war hero or a criminal.  It doesn't change who they are, but it changes how people see them.

And while this is also a poor analogy, it sucks when everyone knows and loves your father.  You become 'So-an-so's kid' instead of your own person.  It blows.

[tmp7704]

Incidentally there seems to be mod on nexus which attempts to remove the suck from Cammen



(the other Dalish too for that matter. It's at http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1343

[Addai]

I would add that Alistair doesn't have a very realistic view of his chances to become king, i.e. he doesn't realize how determined Eamon is and thinks it all very improbable.  Not surprising since it's been drummed into his head his whole life that he'll never be king.  Even right up to post-Landsmeet, he sounds stunned that they're actually doing it.

Call it a fine capacity for denial mixed with a path-of-least-resistance philosophy that many men operate with.

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

Incidentally there seems to be mod on nexus which attempts to remove the suck from Cammen



(the other Dalish too for that matter. It's at http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1343

This person obviously subscribes to the donkey-ear philosophy of elven anatomy. 

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

I would add that Alistair doesn't have a very realistic view of his chances to become king, i.e. he doesn't realize how determined Eamon is and thinks it all very improbable.  Not surprising since it's been drummed into his head his whole life that he'll never be king.  Even right up to post-Landsmeet, he sounds stunned that they're actually doing it.

Call it a fine capacity for denial mixed with a path-of-least-resistance philosophy that many men operate with.

I was actually thinking this same thing.  He sounds really shocked when you suggest that he's the heir.  His entire fear seems summed around who his father is, rather than who he is as the potential heir to the throne.  So it really is all about his family tree rather than about any future on the throne - he's not afraid of that until Eamon makes his intention to put Alistair on the throne clear.

It's why my Dalish girl had no hesitation on that part of things - he said he wasn't going to be king so she believed him.  My HNF on the other hand was like "Yeah right...you're the heir!" - that completely put a damper on her attitude towards the romance happening because she had just stopped seeing herself as a title-bearing noble.  Too bad her heart told her another thing!

[LadyDamodred]

tmp7704 wrote...

Incidentally there seems to be mod on nexus which attempts to remove the suck from Cammen



(the other Dalish too for that matter. It's at http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1343

Wow.  Aside from that one chick's ponytail thing, I am impressed.

[phaonica]

edit: Alistair ToP

tmp7704 wrote...

Incidentally there seems to be mod on nexus which attempts to remove the suck from Cammen



(the other Dalish too for that matter. It's at http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1343

Is that the normal skin tone for Dalish elves? They look like Elder Scrolls elves.

Modifié par phaonica, 11 juin 2010 - 10:46 .