60083 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
It has nothing to do with reason.  Subliminating your own wants and desires becuase it might contribute in a teeny-tiny way to your race declining way in the future is insane.  You become a slave to your people.  How is that better?  And if you don't love Zevran or another elf, why would you go for them?

And if an elf wants to be with a non-elf, and is prevented from doing so, and chooses not to be with anyone else, how has the race benefitted?  It's not like they had elven children anyway.

It adds up. If every elf is going to say "meh my efforts wouldn't add much so why bother", then maybe that's why they are in the miserable state that they are in.

And trying to ensure the survival of your people is being enslaved by them? How?
And they would go for elves to preserve their people. Love isn't necessary. Valuable, but not necessary.

They benefitted in preventing the birth of humans from an elf. That's symbolic resistance to complete absorption and annihilation.
 
But like I said, I am not a fan of the elves to care really. If they can't ensure their own survival, then oh well.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2010 - 12:19 .

[Nu-Nu]

Is it really so bad to breed with other races? All that is really disappearing is superficial physical qualites, what matters is the heart and soul. It's up to the parents to maintain the cultural identity and soul of that race but from what I can see one or both parents seem to run for the hills as soon as the child is born. Ignorance and shame is what's going to make them, the history and culture disappear for good, not breeding.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wardens take kids? I guess it's because they are tainted already.
Still, I am pretty sure married Wardens, and they exist, don't have their kids taken jut like that.
But if that's the case, then yea the argument isn't really pertinent with a Warden elf.

That's what Fiona says, and it doesn't have to do with the taint because Gaider has said GW babies are not naturally born tainted.

Anyway, the elven race has survived so far, even in close contact with humans like in the alienages.  The natural inclination is to choose a mate similar to oneself and that seems to be enough to keep things going.  There is social pressure, too, but some individuals will always break out.  Our Wardens are already singular, marked individuals, so they're not likely to lead ordinary lives at any level.

[Herr Uhl]

yukidama wrote...

What about elves and dwarves that choose not to have children?

A genetic anomaly, speaking from a biological perspective. Slightly worse than going for humans.

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And yea Sarah considering its my game and i can interpret it how I want to yea I will romance Alistair whenever I like. GW PC is infertile or damn close to it anyway. I can't worry about if 1000 years from now in the game all the former elves now have round ears instead of pointed. Its a non concern to me.
And try telling all the human/dwarves who romance zevran that they are contributing singlehandedly to the demise of their lover's species and see how well they receive your insights.

You make is sound like all that's going to change is the ear shape and not that an entire species is going to go extinct...

And again: I am not trying to tell you not to romance Alistair but just pointing out that elves having children with non-elves is contributing to the destruction of their race. You're right, of course, that if Zevran has children with a non-elven Warden then it is the same situation but I'm not sure the human/dwarf Warden in question would care anymore than, say, the human/dwarf you could end up having children with. It's not really the non-elves responsibility to ensure the survival of the elven race and there is nothing they can do except not kill elves and not reproduce with them.

And I still fail to see your point how the mostly infertile warden is going to be the deciding factor in the continuance of the race?  Does this mean that dwarves shouldn't romance humans either because of their crappy birth rate? What then of those dwarves who romance Alistair? That's contributing to dwarven extinction.  And they have a sh*ttier birth rate than elves.  Considering your chances of having a child are from zero to next to none, how is the PC's actions going to affect the fate of their entire species?  You are reading FAR too much into the situation.
Your argument makes no sense to me.  

You are ignoring what I just said which I will bold so maybe you'll pay attention to it. And no, I wouldn't romance a non-elf with an elf, a human with a dwarf, or a dwarf with a human. In the last two cases, however, at least the human/dwarf genes are still present and don't disappear forever the way they do if an elf has a human/dwarf baby. Still, the human race isn't dying out like the dwarven race is so if I were a human I would probably be less inclined to care than if I were a dwarf.

I am not attacking your character or her choice to romance Alistair like you seem to think. I am merely lamenting the probable eventual extinction of the elven race due to all those who think like your PC over the centuries/millenia. Yes, the fact that without, say, magical help then Alistair/Warden can't reproduce does mean that there won't be any children to speak of no matter what their race is something that they may have considered but if your PC would still romance him even if they could have a bunch of human babies then they are victim to the same short-sightedness that could eventually destroy the race. And no, I don't really expect her to care or hold herself personally responsible.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Is it really so bad to breed with other races? All that is really disappearing is superficial physical qualites, what matters is the heart and soul. It's up to the parents to maintain the cultural identity and soul of that race but from what I can see one or both parents seem to run for the hills as soon as the child is born. Ignorance and shame is what's going to make them, the history and culture disappear for good, not breeding.

It's not even breeding, it's complete absorption.

Elves mating with humans will produce 100% humans and nothing elven about them. And what soul? Elven culture is in a disastrous state, most of them don't even follow it, but rather worship a human god, and have adopted human customs. That's in addition to embracing human nations as their own.

Honestly, if I had genocidal tendencies towards th elves, I would promote intermixing to the max, knowing full well that the elves will die completely.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2010 - 12:21 .

[Sarah1281]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Our PCs are Grey Wardens and hence taken out of the reproduction pool anyway, by the taint.

No. You can not have kids with other GW.

Since this is the Alistair gush thread he's usually the shem in question though, so...

Of course, I've already asked a few weeks ago and found out that if they could have children with him it would not stop some but not all of the posters here from being with Alistair anyway and having human children.

An elf PC who is aware, would go for Zevran or a non-GW elf, in order to fullfill the duty of preserving her dying race.
 
But love clouds reason all the time, I guess.

It has nothing to do with reason.  Subliminating your own wants and desires becuase it might contribute in a teeny-tiny way to your race declining way in the future is insane.  You become a slave to your people.  How is that better?  And if you don't love Zevran or another elf, why would you go for them?

And if an elf wants to be with a non-elf, and is prevented from doing so, and chooses not to be with anyone else, how has the race benefitted?  It's not like they had elven children anyway.

In that case, their lack of children is equally non-helpful. This isn't about Elf 1 who is destroying their race by not having children or by going after a human or dwarf. It is about Elves 1-1,000,000 who choose to do that. One doesn't matter but if enough won't have children at all or with elves then yes, the race is going to suffer and may eventually be driven into extinction.

[Sandtigress]

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

He was pleased with himself for blocking the Ron shot.  He's trying to win me back!  *hugs Alistair*  I knew you loved me!

You realize that you're just falling for SurelyForth's winning way with screenshots, and we all know she's made a deal with the Screenshot Demon.  In reality Ron probably has buck teeth, acne and a bad case of B.O.

Aw, Ron is a little upset that you'd even suggest such a thing!

Ahhhhhh, I come back to sad Ron?  Sad Ron breaks my heart!  *hugs Ron*  How could you, Addai?!

[Kryyptehk]

I wonder if Soris, when he married that human woman, moved to where she was or if she moved into the Alienage?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They benefitted in preventing the birth of humans from an elf. That's symbolic resistance to complete absorption and annihilation.
 
But like I said, I am not that an of the elves to care really. If they can't ensure their own survival, then oh well.

So what are you suggesting?  Making a law?  Exposing half-breed fetuses?

The elves are already enforcing elven marriage through their social customs, isolation for the Dalish and matchmakers/ paternalism for the city elves.  It seems to work pretty effectively.  The alienage has lots of little children running around for Rendon Howe to slaughter.  Naturally the race is precarious, but what are you going to do?

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2010 - 12:22 .

[Addai]

Kryyptehk wrote...

I wonder if Soris, when he married that human woman, moved to where she was or if she moved into the Alienage?

I thought it said they moved to Highever?

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wardens take kids? I guess it's because they are tainted already.
Still, I am pretty sure married Wardens, and they exist, don't have their kids taken jut like that.
But if that's the case, then yea the argument isn't really pertinent with a Warden elf.

That's what Fiona says, and it doesn't have to do with the taint because Gaider has said GW babies are not naturally born tainted.

Anyway, the elven race has survived so far, even in close contact with humans like in the alienages.  The natural inclination is to choose a mate similar to oneself and that seems to be enough to keep things going.  There is social pressure, too, but some individuals will always break out.  Our Wardens are already singular, marked individuals, so they're not likely to lead ordinary lives at any level.

It has survived and will likely survive for centuries to come but it is in decline from what it once was and every elf that has in the past chosen not to have children or mate with another species has made the population smaller than it could be.

The same is true of humans and dwarves who don't choose to reproduce and the dwarves need all the babies they can get but the humans don't appear to be having any population problems. Quite the opposite, really.

[Kryyptehk]

Addai67 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I wonder if Soris, when he married that human woman, moved to where she was or if she moved into the Alienage?

I thought it said they moved to Highever?

But to the Highever Alienage or just a house in Highever?

[Herr Uhl]

Addai67 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I wonder if Soris, when he married that human woman, moved to where she was or if she moved into the Alienage?

I thought it said they moved to Highever?

But the alienage in Highever or just Highever?

Edit: *mumbles about ninjas*

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 14 juin 2010 - 12:23 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It adds up. If every elf is going to say "meh my efforts wouldn't add much so why bother", then maybe that's why they are in the miserable state that they are in.

And trying to ensure the survival of your people is being enslaved by them? How?
And they would go for elves to preserve their people. Love isn't necessary. Valuable, but not necessary.

They benefitted in preventing the birth of humans from an elf. That's symbolic resistance to complete absorption and annihilation.
 
But like I said, I am not that an of the elves to care really. If they can't ensure their own survival, then oh well.

There's more ways to support the survival, though. For example an elf who forms relationship with a wealthy shem may be then able to take care and raise muitlple elf childrens/orphans who would otherwise starve. And through such relationship may also contribute to erasing the divides between humans and elves which are as big problem as breeding is.

[Lady Jess]

Female warden has been...



1. tainted

2. stabbed

3. shot with arrows

4. grabbed and pummeled by ogres

5. like chomped across the middle by a dragon at some point

6. hit with blunt objects

7 drank how many lyrium/health pultices??



Let's face facts here, females in this century have trouble reproducing if they've suffered trauma to that general abdominal area, or have had a chronic illness (taint), been in car accidents, shot, stabbed. So seriously, do we really EXPECT a warden to be able to get pregnant in the friggin first place? Let alone be responsible for the extinction of her race?

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They benefitted in preventing the birth of humans from an elf. That's symbolic resistance to complete absorption and annihilation.
 
But like I said, I am not that an of the elves to care really. If they can't ensure their own survival, then oh well.

So what are you suggesting?  Making a law?  Exposing half-breed fetuses?

The elves are already enforcing elven marriage through their social customs, isolation for the Dalish and matchmakers/ paternalism for the city elves.  It seems to work pretty effectively.  The alienage has lots of little children running around for Rendon Howe to slaughter.  Naturally the race is precarious, but what are you going to do?

This is too big of a problem to just be able to pass a law. No matter what they've been taught or how much elf pride they may have, there will always be people who choose to be selfish (selfish as in more concerned with themselves instead of the elf race at large and not intended as an insult) and go with their feelings for a human/dwarf (but mostly human due to the lack of dwarves on the Surface and the lack of elves in Orzammar) and help contribute to the decline and eventual extinction of the elves.

Just because there are no easy answers doesn't make it any less of a problem.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wardens take kids? I guess it's because they are tainted already.
Still, I am pretty sure married Wardens, and they exist, don't have their kids taken jut like that.
But if that's the case, then yea the argument isn't really pertinent with a Warden elf.

That's what Fiona says, and it doesn't have to do with the taint because Gaider has said GW babies are not naturally born tainted.

Anyway, the elven race has survived so far, even in close contact with humans like in the alienages.  The natural inclination is to choose a mate similar to oneself and that seems to be enough to keep things going.  There is social pressure, too, but some individuals will always break out.  Our Wardens are already singular, marked individuals, so they're not likely to lead ordinary lives at any level.

It has survived and will likely survive for centuries to come but it is in decline from what it once was and every elf that has in the past chosen not to have children or mate with another species has made the population smaller than it could be.

The same is true of humans and dwarves who don't choose to reproduce and the dwarves need all the babies they can get but the humans don't appear to be having any population problems. Quite the opposite, really.

This is evolution.  The fittest survive. Those who aren't die out.  Eventually the human race will go that way too.  That is the way of things, its unavoidable so I don't lament it.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They benefitted in preventing the birth of humans from an elf. That's symbolic resistance to complete absorption and annihilation.
 
But like I said, I am not that an of the elves to care really. If they can't ensure their own survival, then oh well.

So what are you suggesting?  Making a law?  Exposing half-breed fetuses?

The elves are already enforcing elven marriage through their social customs, isolation for the Dalish and matchmakers/ paternalism for the city elves.  It seems to work pretty effectively.  The alienage has lots of little children running around for Rendon Howe to slaughter.  Naturally the race is precarious, but what are you going to do?

And all those initiatives are good. Maybe they can do better, I don't know, I would have to study all of it, with statistics and birth rates and all that. Which I won't do, even if I delight in such studies.

Just talking in general. I believe that an elf giving birth to humans with a human, is contributing to her race's decline and potential extinction. Even if individually, it wouldn' matter. All it requires is a few thousands thinking that way every generation for it to become a real and grave threat.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2010 - 12:31 .

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It adds up. If every elf is going to say "meh my efforts wouldn't add much so why bother", then maybe that's why they are in the miserable state that they are in.

And trying to ensure the survival of your people is being enslaved by them? How?
And they would go for elves to preserve their people. Love isn't necessary. Valuable, but not necessary.

They benefitted in preventing the birth of humans from an elf. That's symbolic resistance to complete absorption and annihilation.
 
But like I said, I am not that an of the elves to care really. If they can't ensure their own survival, then oh well.

There's more ways to support the survival, though. For example an elf who forms relationship with a wealthy shem may be then able to take care and raise muitlple elf childrens/orphans who would otherwise starve. And through such relationship may also contribute to erasing the divides between humans and elves which are as big problem as breeding is.

 True but don't you think less divides between the different species (which I'm not saying would be a bad thing so please don't go biting my head off about how elves don't deserve to be treated like they are in-game) would make cross-species pairings more common? 

[Bratt1204]

 How about some Ali luv?


*Swoon* :wub:

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wardens take kids? I guess it's because they are tainted already.
Still, I am pretty sure married Wardens, and they exist, don't have their kids taken jut like that.
But if that's the case, then yea the argument isn't really pertinent with a Warden elf.

That's what Fiona says, and it doesn't have to do with the taint because Gaider has said GW babies are not naturally born tainted.

Anyway, the elven race has survived so far, even in close contact with humans like in the alienages.  The natural inclination is to choose a mate similar to oneself and that seems to be enough to keep things going.  There is social pressure, too, but some individuals will always break out.  Our Wardens are already singular, marked individuals, so they're not likely to lead ordinary lives at any level.

It has survived and will likely survive for centuries to come but it is in decline from what it once was and every elf that has in the past chosen not to have children or mate with another species has made the population smaller than it could be.

The same is true of humans and dwarves who don't choose to reproduce and the dwarves need all the babies they can get but the humans don't appear to be having any population problems. Quite the opposite, really.

This is evolution.  The fittest survive. Those who aren't die out.  Eventually the human race will go that way too.  That is the way of things, its unavoidable so I don't lament it.  

That reminds me so much of Saren...

But is it unreasonable that if your race is 'less fit' that you would not want to simply give up and actively contribute to its destruction? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
There's more ways to support the survival, though. For example an elf who forms relationship with a wealthy shem may be then able to take care and raise muitlple elf childrens/orphans who would otherwise starve. And through such relationship may also contribute to erasing the divides between humans and elves which are as big problem as breeding is.

As it is, the divide isn't big enough. Alienage elves are too much like humans culturally speaking and are very easy to absorb if it weren't for humans treating them like dogs. All it requires is for the humans to be nicer and moreopen and that would present an even greater danger.

What the elves need to do is try to achieve in equal footing with humans vis a vis culture and population (which won't happen), before starting to open up to them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2010 - 12:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
This is evolution.  The fittest survive. Those who aren't die out.  Eventually the human race will go that way too.  That is the way of things, its unavoidable so I don't lament it.  

I was about to say that, but refrained because I didn't want to be accused of being a Social Darwinist.

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

There's more ways to support the survival, though. For example an elf who forms relationship with a wealthy shem may be then able to take care and raise muitlple elf childrens/orphans who would otherwise starve. And through such relationship may also contribute to erasing the divides between humans and elves which are as big problem as breeding is.

That's a good point.

Though I like elf theme a lot, personally I wouldn't lament the elves being absorbed into the humans.  What's wrong with that?  Very few ethnic groups remain distinct throughout history.  They intermingle and some lesser groups get absorbed.

I'm not a very good Dalish, am I. 


Ugh, tops again?  Alistair is annoyed at all these people trying to deprive him of elven lovin'.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2010 - 12:31 .